Should trans "women" be allowed in women's shelters?

[Jolly_Penguin]

In the other threads on trans, people have been making the argument that we should be able to decide what gender we are and others should treat us as that gender. If gender is just a social role people decide to play out, then this is fine and good, but it has implications when we live in societies that push gender politics, and identity politics in general. Should "gender fluid" people have the power to demand we call them what they want us to call them and regard them as the gender that currently suits their purpose? This would all be moot if we didn't treat people differently based on gender, yet gender and identity politics is often pushed by the very same people that push this trans stuff.

So I ask:

Do Trans Women (men) qualify for shelters for abused women, while there are so few such shelters for abused men?
If so, is that pro-trans discrimination? Should it be allowed? If so, should anti-trans discrimination be likewise allowed?

Do Trans Women qualify for affirmative action programs or scholarships exclusive to women?
Do Trans Women get preferred treatment in family courts?
Are Trans Men eligible for military draft and compulsory military service? (if that exists in or returns to the reader's particular country)
Do Trans Men pay less than women for haircuts?
Do Trans Women get in free on ladies night?

Why again is transgender ok but trans-racial not?

I see an inherent conflict in trans and "gender fluidity" being pushed concurrently with identity politics being pushed. How does a SJW respond to this internal conflict? Doesn't this render intersectional feminism rather moot?

 

[Playball40]

Yes, they should. Shelters, prisons, restrooms. Racial is a made up construct that has no true basis - however, establish physical distinctions in order to assist those oppressed and discriminated against.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Yes, they should. Shelters, prisons, restrooms. Racial is a made up construct that has no true basis - however, establish physical distinctions in order to assist those oppressed and discriminated against.

How do you establish physical distinctions in order to assist those oppressed and discriminated against if we can all alter ourselves and our labels as we see fit to get this assistance when it suits us? What stops a gender fluid person from enjoying the benefits of being male when it suits them, and those of being female when it suits them? And how are we to identify the frauds from those who are genuine, when its based on little more than how people feel or think? I would suggest undoing the identity politics and treating people as individuals, and then you actually could figure out who is really facing hardship rather than going by proxy that can now be switched around.

Now that the trans bathroom thing is pretty much settled, and trans women (men) can go into the bathroom of their choice, does that mean we all can? I would push for unisex bathrooms. Why shouldn't I as a man be allowed to use the women's bathroom if the men's is dirty or over busy with other people using it?

 

[prideandfall]

Yes, they should. Shelters, prisons, restrooms. Racial is a made up construct that has no true basis - however, establish physical distinctions in order to assist those oppressed and discriminated against.

How do you establish physical distinctions in order to assist those oppressed and discriminated against if we can all alter ourselves and our labels as we see fit to get this assistance when it suits us? What stops a gender fluid person from enjoying the benefits of being male when it suits them, and those of being female when it suits them? And how are we to identify the frauds from those who are genuine, when its based on little more than how people feel or think? I would suggest undoing the identity politics and treating people as individuals, and then you actually could figure out who is really facing hardship rather than going by proxy that can now be switched around.

Now that the trans bathroom thing is pretty much settled, and trans women (men) can go into the bathroom of their choice, does that mean we all can? I would push for unisex bathrooms. Why shouldn't I as a man be allowed to use the women's bathroom if the men's is dirty or over busy with other people using it?

ssssssssshhhhhhhhhhh stop questioning the reality of logistics and and just blindly parrot that an off-hand comment changes your biology.

 

[laughing dog]

Leave it to a man to start a thread about transgender people and then make it all about him.

 

[RVonse]

Leave it to a man to start a thread about transgender people and then make it all about him.

Of course its all about him. Its all about me and you as well too. And its all about anyone else who may need to use a restroom too.

 

[laughing dog]

Leave it to a man to start a thread about transgender people and then make it all about him.

Of course its all about him. Its all about me and you as well too. And its all about anyone else who may need to use a restroom too.

No, it is not. IMO, most people are not the least bit interested in who else is using the restroom.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Do Trans Women (men) qualify for shelters for abused women, while there are so few such shelters for abused men?

Sure.

If so, is that pro-trans discrimination?

Only if having a woman's shelter is pro-woman discrimination which I don't think it is but you can try to debate that.

Should it be allowed?

Should what be allowed, the alleged discrimination? Since I don't really think it is discrimination, yes it should be allowed.

If so, should anti-trans discrimination be likewise allowed?

I think this is a bigger question than you imagine. In a very narrow discussion of what we're talking about and supposing it includes government funding, then I'd say no. If you want to bring private and religious entities into it who may be funding such shelters, then it's going to quickly get complicated.

Do Trans Women qualify for affirmative action programs or scholarships exclusive to women?

Sure...but again private and religious funding will complicate that.

Do Trans Women get preferred treatment in family courts?

Bullshit, antiquated premise.

Are Trans Men eligible for military draft and compulsory military service? (if that exists in or returns to the reader's particular country)

There should not be a draft and but if there is, well, anything ought to be ineligible?

Do Trans Men pay less than women for haircuts?

People ought to pay what is agreed upon which ought to normally be related to hair length and all the fixings.

Do Trans Women get in free on ladies night?

Yes.

Why again is transgender ok but trans-racial not?

Based on you beating your wife this has already been addressed in another thread.

I see an inherent conflict in trans and "gender fluidity" being pushed concurrently with identity politics being pushed. How does a SJW respond to this internal conflict?

Logically consistently.

Doesn't this render intersectional feminism rather moot?

No, whatever that is, no. Also, free ladies' night isn't discrimination. That's just stupid. Consider real discrimination not made-up crap. Think about history.

 

[fast]

What's the point of the shelter? The question might not be whether to allow trans in but where to relocate the females in need of a shelter for females. People say (apparently inappropriately) that a trans is born a man (since the person is born with male parts), but some trans claim that the person is born a woman but in a man's body. So, maybe it isn't that women need a woman's shelter but rather females need a female shelter. In other words, the primary discrimination may not be gender biased but sex biased.

To this point, I have noticed what might be called two kinds of racism. A direct kind of racism where the intended target is race. For instance, no blacks allowed. Clear, direct, blatent. There is also a more indirect kind that is sometimes intentional and sometimes not. For example, there can be completely non race motives behind an act that can unwittingly and overwhelmingly effect a particular race.

As I apply this to gender and sex, I find an interesting outcome. Suppose the people in question have no problem whatsoever with a particular gender but quite explicitly want to discriminate on the basis of sex. In this case, a post op trans isn't being discriminated against, but the pre op trans is but only in the indirect way. The person is being discriminated against but not because of gender but because of sex.

This brings me back full circle. If the shelter is for women, then women should be allowed in, trans or not. If the shelter is for females, then females should be allowed in, excluding pre op, as they would be male women. However, again, what is the shelter for? If we are talking about a young skittish petite pretty little girl that has been through horrors and in need of a short term reprieve from people with dicks, a shelter open to big burly bearded middle aged people born with a penis but believes SHE's a woman kind of person, then sure, let HER in if its for women, but as we let the trans in, there needs to be a group willing to take in the girls in need of escape leaving to find alternative refuge.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Leave it to a man to start a thread about transgender people and then make it all about him.

Of course its all about him. Its all about me and you as well too. And its all about anyone else who may need to use a restroom too.

No no no. Its only about me. Don't you see? Dog trolled me in the other thread and has now followed to troll me here. Its all about me. He is my number one fan.

 

[RavenSky]

They are not "women". They are women, so of course they would/should accepted at women's shelters... especially as they tend to face an even greater risk of abuse - usually from people who insist on calling them "he" and putting the word "woman" in quotes when referring to them.

 

[laughing dog]

Leave it to a man to start a thread about transgender people and then make it all about him.

Of course its all about him. Its all about me and you as well too. And its all about anyone else who may need to use a restroom too.

No no no. Its only about me. Don't you see? Dog trolled me in the other thread and has now followed to troll me here. Its all about me. He is my number one fan.

You have a idiosyncratic definition of troll. On the otherhand

Do Trans Women get preferred treatment in family courts?
Do Trans Men pay less than women for haircuts?
Do Trans Women get in free on ladies night?

are perfect examples of trolling.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They are not "women". They are women, so of course they would/should accepted at women's shelters... especially as they tend to face an even greater risk of abuse - usually from people who insist on calling them "he" and putting the word "woman" in quotes when referring to them.

The problem is the other women at the shelter probably fear men--and we are apparently talking about trans people that haven't had bottom surgery. It's a special case where you have conflicting interests. (Sort of like the fact that service dogs are not allowed into a few animal parks. People understand about service dogs, the animals don't, and in some cases that's a big problem.)

 

[thebeave]

They are not "women". They are women, so of course they would/should accepted at women's shelters... especially as they tend to face an even greater risk of abuse - usually from people who insist on calling them "he" and putting the word "woman" in quotes when referring to them.

The problem is the other women at the shelter probably fear men--and we are apparently talking about trans people that haven't had bottom surgery. It's a special case where you have conflicting interests. (Sort of like the fact that service dogs are not allowed into a few animal parks. People understand about service dogs, the animals don't, and in some cases that's a big problem.)

What about teh lesbians, though. Lesbian relationships are the most volatile of all, IIRC. Are there special shelters for them?

 

[laughing dog]

They are not "women". They are women, so of course they would/should accepted at women's shelters... especially as they tend to face an even greater risk of abuse - usually from people who insist on calling them "he" and putting the word "woman" in quotes when referring to them.

The problem is the other women at the shelter probably fear men--and we are apparently talking about trans people that haven't had bottom surgery. It's a special case where you have conflicting interests. (Sort of like the fact that service dogs are not allowed into a few animal parks. People understand about service dogs, the animals don't, and in some cases that's a big problem.)

What about teh lesbians, though. Lesbian relationships are the most volatile of all, IIRC. Are there special shelters for them?

Is that a serious question or a seriously stupid question?

 

[Underseer]

Why wouldn't they?

Oh, and nice dismissive use of scare quotes. I see you are offended that anything other than cisgender people exist in the world, and now you're using this thread to whine about the fact that you feel less special because other people are acknowledging other gender clarifications. You're so oppressed.

 

[RavenSky]

They are not "women". They are women, so of course they would/should accepted at women's shelters... especially as they tend to face an even greater risk of abuse - usually from people who insist on calling them "he" and putting the word "woman" in quotes when referring to them.

The problem is the other women at the shelter probably fear men--and we are apparently talking about trans people that haven't had bottom surgery...

Last time I checked, women in a women's shelter are not examining everyone else's "bottom" equipment

Why are some of you so obessed with other people's genitals?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They are not "women". They are women, so of course they would/should accepted at women's shelters... especially as they tend to face an even greater risk of abuse - usually from people who insist on calling them "he" and putting the word "woman" in quotes when referring to them.

The problem is the other women at the shelter probably fear men--and we are apparently talking about trans people that haven't had bottom surgery...

Last time I checked, women in a women's shelter are not examining everyone else's "bottom" equipment

Why are some of you so obessed with other people's genitals?

It's a shelter, not private living quarters.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Its also predicated on women's shelters rather than merely shelters being funded. By design they exclude men. Trans crosses that line, so that some men and not other men have this help available to them because they are claiming to be women. That's discrimination times two. And it isn't I who is obsessed with genitals. It is society that has built gender roles around them.

Again, if you can switch between genders when you want to and have everybody call you and treat you as the gender you demand to be treated as, then what becomes of identity politics?

And again, why not trans-racialism. You say it has been explained in another thread, but it hasn't been. Is it because the identity politics are stronger in race? If a white male truly feels inside like he is black woman, why is his putting on black face a horrible thing to do, but putting on a dress not?

 

[LordKiran]

Its also predicated on women's shelters rather than merely shelters being funded. By design they exclude men. Trans crosses that line, so that some men and not other men have this help available to them because they are claiming to be women. That's discrimination times two. And it isn't I who is obsessed with genitals. It is society that has built gender roles around them.

Again, if you can switch between genders when you want to and have everybody call you and treat you as the gender you demand to be treated as, then what becomes of identity politics?

And again, why not trans-racialism. You say it has been explained in another thread, but it hasn't been. Is it because the identity politics are stronger in race? If a white male truly feels inside like he is black woman, why is his putting on black face a horrible thing to do, but putting on a dress not?

What is it with your fear of trans-people? Where's this wave of crime enabled by a trans-friendly society we all keep hearing about? Your entire position is predicated on the idea that there's a big problem of men pretending to be trans so they can sneak into places. Can this problem you reference be represented in data? If not then you're an idiot. If so then why is your go-to answer "Don't let trans-people into places period."?

Does this mean we can start banning guns all over the place because there's a statistical problem in America with people injurying/killing themselves with guns? Or is this ham-fisted method for finding solutions to problems only allowed if your target demographic is an easy target you think you can get away with bullying?