So I guess David Cameron will win the next election as well

[whichphilosophy]

UK's Labour Party elected a left wing radical as their leader.
Great Britain’s New Labour Party Leader Loves Karl Marx, Likes Hamas, and Hates Austerity
It's one thing if David Cameron doesn't like him, it's quite another if people in his own party like Tony Blair think his election spells disaster.

Nearly everyone hates austerity which is imposed on the banks which control the economies of the Eu countries who are in debt, so pawn the rights of all those who work. Improved management and productivity plus aggressive marketing will more stably such issues. Austerity is slower and creates poverty. Governments have a habit of going on a spending spree to win elections.

Hamas has never attacked the West, though there is one single incident if I remember where it 'could have been involved.'
If a few more people vote UKIP then in many of the seats where it came second in the last election, could produce some MPs.(The UK has a first past the post system, not proportional representation).

A mixed economy allowing enterprise with a welfare state to expand. If the state can afford it from taxes alone (which are not excessive) then free healthcare, education and even transportation on certain routes could be achievable. To much state control of industry stifles growth and initiative. Private monopolies actually have the same effect.

The modern trend in politics is to mix socialism and free enterprise to try and benefit from both areas.

 

[whichphilosophy]

I know it's Daily Mail, but it's interesting if it bears out:
Jeremy Corbyn 'loses fifth of Labour voters' with critics already plotting to oust him
Also, an army general is threatening a mutiny if he is PM:
British Army 'could stage mutiny under Corbyn', says senior serving general

While anything is possible, the mutiny relates to further cuts in army manpower where plus it seems a dislike for Corbyn, though I think the likelihood of this happening is very remote. The army also has difficulty recruiting people at the moment and recently raised the membership age of people in the Territorial army.

Perhaps this was said during while swallowing some Gin and Tonics.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rbyn-says-senior-serving-general-10509742.htm

 

[bilby]

Is there a TFT award for 'Least accurate prediction in a thread title'?

If not, should there be?

 

[Derec]

Is there a TFT award for 'Least accurate prediction in a thread title'?

Well I didn't predict the Brexit...
The thread was about how Labour is not likely at all to win the next elections if Comrade Jezza is at the helm.

Speaking of which, some of his Hamas friends shot a rocket at an Israeli kindergarten.
Israeli airstrikes on Hamas after rocket hits empty Sderot kindergarten
I am sure Corbyn will issue swift condemnation ... against Israel attacking Hamas sites in response.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

It would be nice if people would stop misrepresenting other people's views:

"Does it mean I agree with Hamas and what it does? No. Does it mean I agree with Hezbollah and what they do? No. What it means is that I think to bring about a peace process, you have to talk to people with whom you may profoundly disagree … There is not going to be a peace process unless there is talks involving Israel, Hezbollah and Hamas and I think everyone knows that", he argued.

From here.

 

[Derec]

It would be nice if people would stop misrepresenting other people's views:

That same wiki pages makes clear that he said that only after being asked about him previously calling Hamas and Hezbollah "friends". I.e. it is typical politician butt-covering attempt.
Interesting also is that he doesn't think military intervention against ISIS is ok but he thinks the Spanish Civil War was.

His original statement about these "friends" of his.

He thinks Hamas and Hezbollah are organizations "dedicated towards the good of Palestinian people, and bringing it back long term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region" and does not think they should be labeled as terrorist organizations. That certainly doesn't sound as if he disagreed with what they do and stand for.

So Hamas/Hezbollah are "social justice warriors"? Kinda fits I guess.

By the way, I wonder if Corbyn would enjoy such support as that he has if he didn't have a certain resemblance to Obi Wan Kenobi?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

It would be nice if people would stop misrepresenting other people's views:

That same wiki pages makes clear that he said that only after being asked about him previously calling Hamas and Hezbollah "friends". I.e. it is typical politician butt-covering attempt.
Interesting also is that he doesn't think military intervention against ISIS is ok but he thinks the Spanish Civil War was.

His original statement about these "friends" of his.

He thinks Hamas and Hezbollah are organizations "dedicated towards the good of Palestinian people, and bringing it back long term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region" and does not think they should be labeled as terrorist organizations.

So Hamas/Hezbollah are "social justice warriors"? Kinda fits I guess.

By the way, I wonder if Corbyn would enjoy such support as that he has if he didn't have a certain resemblance to Obi Wan Kenobi?

Regardless of that, do you agree that both sides need to come to some agreement in order to achieve peace?

 

[Derec]

Regardless of that, do you agree that both sides need to come to some agreement in order to achieve peace?

Depends what you mean by "sides". Palestinians as a whole? Sure. Terrorists like Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and even Fatah? Hell no! The Allies didn't have to "come to some agreement" with the Nazis either.

 

[whichphilosophy]

It would be nice if people would stop misrepresenting other people's views:

That same wiki pages makes clear that he said that only after being asked about him previously calling Hamas and Hezbollah "friends". I.e. it is typical politician butt-covering attempt.
Interesting also is that he doesn't think military intervention against ISIS is ok but he thinks the Spanish Civil War was.

His original statement about these "friends" of his.

He thinks Hamas and Hezbollah are organizations "dedicated towards the good of Palestinian people, and bringing it back long term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region" and does not think they should be labeled as terrorist organizations. That certainly doesn't sound as if he disagreed with what they do and stand for.

So Hamas/Hezbollah are "social justice warriors"? Kinda fits I guess.

By the way, I wonder if Corbyn would enjoy such support as that he has if he didn't have a certain resemblance to Obi Wan Kenobi?

Hamas is fighting what they perceive as a war against occupation. Hezbollah claim the same, regarding the part of Lebanon still under Israeli control after it left most of the other areas. The two state are not going to leave the area and a suitable solution should be found as there is no alternative. Hamas and Hezbollah have not attacked Western targets abroad as far as I see. I believe Hamas was thought to have made one attack but it was not confirmed.

The Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other but deaths from Israeli airstrikes and ground forces are much higher than Hamas inflicts. It's been quiet in Lebanon during the past few years.

 

[bilby]

I think it is hilarious that Americans are so used to the huge importance placed on Middle East affairs in their own country, that in never occurs to them that British voters - and as a result, British politicians - view the conflict as merely one more fairly remote and apparently endless war. It would make no difference at all to Corbyn's popularity if he had the exact opposite stance on the Israel/Palestine question, because in the UK, NOBODY CARES.

Well, obviously not nobody. But certainly far too few give a single shit to make it an important campaign issue. And of those Britons who do care, more of them lean toward support for the Palestinians than towards support for Israel; so expressing sympathy for their cause is not going to harm anyone's electability at Westminster, nor will it lead the public to automatically leap to the erroneous conclusion that a person expressing such ideas is a supporter of terrorism. That's a very American response, and the British find it rather odd.

I know Americans find it hard to grasp, but your priorities are not necessarily those of the other 95% of humanity.

Corbyn's support for one or other side in the Israel/Palestine conflict is of as much importance to British voters as who he backed in the civil war in Sierra Leone. The British public have heard of the Gaza Strip, but most of them think it's the shirt Paul Gascoine wore when he played for England.

 

[SimpleDon]

I think it is hilarious that Americans are so used to the huge importance placed on Middle East affairs in their own country, that in never occurs to them that British voters - and as a result, British politicians - view the conflict as merely one more fairly remote and apparently endless war. It would make no difference at all to Corbyn's popularity if he had the exact opposite stance on the Israel/Palestine question, because in the UK, NOBODY CARES.

Well, obviously not nobody. But certainly far too few give a single shit to make it an important campaign issue. And of those Britons who do care, more of them lean toward support for the Palestinians than towards support for Israel; so expressing sympathy for their cause is not going to harm anyone's electability at Westminster, nor will it lead the public to automatically leap to the erroneous conclusion that a person expressing such ideas is a supporter of terrorism. That's a very American response, and the British find it rather odd.

I know Americans find it hard to grasp, but your priorities are not necessarily those of the other 95% of humanity.

Corbyn's support for one or other side in the Israel/Palestine conflict is of as much importance to British voters as who he backed in the civil war in Sierra Leone. The British public have heard of the Gaza Strip, but most of them think it's the shirt Paul Gascoine wore when he played for England.

You should explain to the English brand of football illiterates that Gascoine's nickname is Gazza and that "strip" also means a team uniform.

In a just world Americans would be aware and more than a little ashamed of the mess that we have made of our Mid Eastern policy, primarily because of the blind support of Israel but also because we didn't trust capitalism enough to provide solutions to OPEC, and, of course, due to hubris.

It is hard to call out a low point, there are so many, Truman's bullying through the US recognition of Israel's national government eleven minutes after it was announced, Eisenhower's overturning of democracy in Iran in 1953 and his reaction to the Suez crisis, etc. through every administration except possibly Carter's until we get to the roots of our current problems, Reagan's abandonment of the 200 year old policy to not negotiate with terrorists, his failure to act against the terrorists who bombed the Marine barracks, through W. Bush's invasion of Iraq and his post-invasion incompetence that carried over to Obama, that gave us ISIS.

While admittedly this is easy hindsight, there is no indication that even this is being done in our public discussions today, and if our current turn to the know-nothingism of Trump is any indication, it is becoming even less likely and we are dooming ourselves to keep making mistakes in our Middle East policies well into the future.

 

[arkirk]

UK's Labour Party elected a left wing radical as their leader.
Great Britain’s New Labour Party Leader Loves Karl Marx, Likes Hamas, and Hates Austerity
It's one thing if David Cameron doesn't like him, it's quite another if people in his own party like Tony Blair think his election spells disaster.

So you are a fan of Tony Blair.....Dubbiya's lapchild? You would actually listen to that? Blair is bomb happy fruitcake.

 

[bilby]

UK's Labour Party elected a left wing radical as their leader.
Great Britain’s New Labour Party Leader Loves Karl Marx, Likes Hamas, and Hates Austerity
It's one thing if David Cameron doesn't like him, it's quite another if people in his own party like Tony Blair think his election spells disaster.

So you are a fan of Tony Blair.....Dubbiya's lapchild? You would actually listen to that? Blair is bomb happy fruitcake.

See, I knew if I waited long enough you would write something I could completely and wholeheartedly agree with.

 

[Derec]

So you are a fan of Tony Blair.....Dubbiya's lapchild? You would actually listen to that? Blair is bomb happy fruitcake.

Not exactly a fan by he is much better than Comrade Jezza, friend of Hamas and Hezbollah.

The only Jezza I like is Clarkson.

Maybe he should be the prime minister. With Hamster as Chancellor of the Exchequer and Captain Slow as Home Secretary or something (any relation to incumbent I wonder?)

 

[Derec]

It is hard to call out a low point, there are so many, Truman's bullying through the US recognition of Israel's national government eleven minutes after it was announced,

Why is that a lowpoint?

Eisenhower's overturning of democracy in Iran in 1953

Mosaddegh's regime wasn't exactly democratic. He gave himself decree powers and he suspended the counting of votes so he would remain ahead.

and his reaction to the Suez crisis,

Correct. US shamefully backed Egypt against Israel, UK and France.

etc. through every administration except possibly Carter's

Carter, who threw the Shah under the bus and whose UN ambassador thought Khomeini was "some kind of saint".

until we get to the roots of our current problems,

The root of the problems is Islam. It is the goat fucker who made up a story that Gabriel dictated a book to him in order to unify Arab tribes to conquer the Middle East (and beyond).

Reagan's abandonment of the 200 year old policy to not negotiate with terrorists,

Wasn't Ollie North acting on his own?

his failure to act against the terrorists who bombed the Marine barracks, through W. Bush's invasion of Iraq and his post-invasion incompetence that carried over to Obama, that gave us ISIS.

Had Reagan intervened more forcefully you would have lamented that as well.

While admittedly this is easy hindsight, there is no indication that even this is being done in our public discussions today, and if our current turn to the know-nothingism of Trump is any indication, it is becoming even less likely and we are dooming ourselves to keep making mistakes in our Middle East policies well into the future.

The biggest mistake Europe is making right now is importing millions of Muslims from the Middle East.

 

[Derec]

I think it is hilarious that Americans are so used to the huge importance placed on Middle East affairs in their own country, that in never occurs to them that British voters - and as a result, British politicians - view the conflict as merely one more fairly remote and apparently endless war. It would make no difference at all to Corbyn's popularity if he had the exact opposite stance on the Israel/Palestine question, because in the UK, NOBODY CARES.

Well Comrade Jezza certainly does care, for one.

Well, obviously not nobody. But certainly far too few give a single shit to make it an important campaign issue.

Israel is a country not unlike mainstream UK in many ways. Palestinian territories are more like the crazies in the UK who want to impose Sharia.

And Hamas and Hezbolah are like the guys who blow up buses or behead people on the street.

Hamas and Hezbollah are not the friends of UK. They may be friends of Comrade Jezza, but they are not the friends of the civilized world.
It would be a mistake for regular Britons to beglect the fact that they are on the same side with Israel in the great civilizational fight.

And of those Britons who do care, more of them lean toward support for the Palestinians than towards support for Israel;

Which is insane, seeing how UK is facing similar problems that Israel is facing.

so expressing sympathy for their cause is not going to harm anyone's electability at Westminster, nor will it lead the public to automatically leap to the erroneous conclusion that a person expressing such ideas is a supporter of terrorism. That's a very American response, and the British find it rather odd.

Well it should improve his electibility with the far left, who hate Israel and love Islamism, but I doubt it will help him win any Tory districts over.

Corbyn's support for one or other side in the Israel/Palestine conflict is of as much importance to British voters as who he backed in the civil war in Sierra Leone. The British public have heard of the Gaza Strip, but most of them think it's the shirt Paul Gascoine wore when he played for England.

I doubt most Britons are that clueless. Do they think Hamas and Hezbollah are football clubs too?

 

[Derec]

Hamas is fighting what they perceive as a war against occupation.

No, that's how they sell it to the useful idiots in the West (like Comrade Jezza). They see all of Israel as "occupied" and thus want to destroy Israel altogether and push Jews into the sea.

Hezbollah claim the same, regarding the part of Lebanon still under Israeli control after it left most of the other areas.

There is no part of Lebanon that is under Israeli control as Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon a decade ago. And the only reason Israel occupied it in the first place was because Hezbollah was using it as a staging area for terrorist attacks against Israel. Fortunaetly they are a bit busy at the moment but when Syrian civil war is resolved they will be able to turn their terrorist focus back onto Israel.

The two state are not going to leave the area and a suitable solution should be found as there is no alternative.

But Hamas and Hezbollah are not parts of the solution any more than NSDAP was a part of the solution for post WWII Germany.

Hamas and Hezbollah have not attacked Western targets abroad as far as I see.

First they came for Israelis, and I did not speak out ...

I believe Hamas was thought to have made one attack but it was not confirmed.

So what? Is their terrorism any better if they only murder Jews?

The Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other but deaths from Israeli airstrikes and ground forces are much higher than Hamas inflicts.

Righteousness of a cause is not a function of the endured death toll. "Root for the underdog because just because he is the underdog" may work for sports and some movies but works rather poorly in real life.

It's been quiet in Lebanon during the past few years.

Only because Hezbollah has been busy in Syria. But Hezbollah is rattling sabers again.

 

[bilby]

Well Comrade Jezza certainly does care, for one.

That is his right; but it is irrelevant to his political career, because the voters don't.

Well, obviously not nobody. But certainly far too few give a single shit to make it an important campaign issue.

Israel is a country not unlike mainstream UK in many ways. Palestinian territories are more like the crazies in the UK who want to impose Sharia.

And Hamas and Hezbolah are like the guys who blow up buses or behead people on the street.

Hamas and Hezbollah are not the friends of UK. They may be friends of Comrade Jezza, but they are not the friends of the civilized world.
It would be a mistake for regular Britons to beglect the fact that they are on the same side with Israel in the great civilizational fight.

So what? Why the fuck are you trying to persuade me of something as if that changes what the British voters will believe? Are you labouring under the misapprehension that I have some influence on British public opinion, or are you too stupid to grasp the difference between what I think, and what I understand others to think?

My opinion on the Israel question is of no relevance here. I am telling you, as someone who grew up in the UK, what the general feeling is amongst British voters. And their opinion on the Israel question is mostly 'Did you see the football last night?'. It is just not an issue. No matter how much Americans might think it should be; not even if the Americans are correct in thinking it should be. It still isn't.

And of those Britons who do care, more of them lean toward support for the Palestinians than towards support for Israel;

Which is insane, seeing how UK is facing similar problems that Israel is facing.

Sane or not, it is true.

Which renders your argument that Corbyn will be unpopular because of his stance on this issue total orchilalia.

so expressing sympathy for their cause is not going to harm anyone's electability at Westminster, nor will it lead the public to automatically leap to the erroneous conclusion that a person expressing such ideas is a supporter of terrorism. That's a very American response, and the British find it rather odd.

Well it should improve his electibility with the far left, who hate Israel and love Islamism, but I doubt it will help him win any Tory districts over.

It won't make a blind bit of difference. He's not going to win many Tory districts over, but that has fuck all to do with his stance on this question. It is your obsession, not that of the British voter.

Corbyn's support for one or other side in the Israel/Palestine conflict is of as much importance to British voters as who he backed in the civil war in Sierra Leone. The British public have heard of the Gaza Strip, but most of them think it's the shirt Paul Gascoine wore when he played for England.

I doubt most Britons are that clueless. Do they think Hamas and Hezbollah are football clubs too?

Quite possibly many do. But that's not the point - those who DO know who the teams are in the Israel/Palestine conflict generally DON'T CARE. There are no votes in this issue in the UK. No matter how important the issue 'really' is; No matter how important it is to YOU; No matter how vital an issue is may be in US political battles, it remains a minor policy side-show for the vast majority of British voters.

And no matter how many pictures you post here, that will continue to be true. The opinion of the British voting public cannot be changed one iota by anything you say to me.

- - - Updated - - -

No, that's how they sell it to the useful idiots in the West (like Comrade Jezza). They see all of Israel as "occupied" and thus want to destroy Israel altogether and push Jews into the sea.

Hezbollah claim the same, regarding the part of Lebanon still under Israeli control after it left most of the other areas.

There is no part of Lebanon that is under Israeli control as Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon a decade ago. And the only reason Israel occupied it in the first place was because Hezbollah was using it as a staging area for terrorist attacks against Israel. Fortunaetly they are a bit busy at the moment but when Syrian civil war is resolved they will be able to turn their terrorist focus back onto Israel.

The two state are not going to leave the area and a suitable solution should be found as there is no alternative.

But Hamas and Hezbollah are not parts of the solution any more than NSDAP was a part of the solution for post WWII Germany.

Hamas and Hezbollah have not attacked Western targets abroad as far as I see.

First they came for Israelis, and I did not speak out ...

I believe Hamas was thought to have made one attack but it was not confirmed.

So what? Is their terrorism any better if they only murder Jews?

The Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other but deaths from Israeli airstrikes and ground forces are much higher than Hamas inflicts.

Righteousness of a cause is not a function of the endured death toll. "Root for the underdog because just because he is the underdog" may work for sports and some movies but works rather poorly in real life.

It's been quiet in Lebanon during the past few years.

Only because Hezbollah has been busy in Syria. But Hezbollah is rattling sabers again.

This is a pure derail; It has NOTHING to do with David Cameron, nor with UK elections. If you want to debate the Israel/Palestine question, please use one of the other gazillion threads on this board; We don't need a re-hash of that discussion here as well.

 

[whichphilosophy]

No, that's how they sell it to the useful idiots in the West (like Comrade Jezza). They see all of Israel as "occupied" and thus want to destroy Israel altogether and push Jews into the sea.

Hezbollah claim the same, regarding the part of Lebanon still under Israeli control after it left most of the other areas.

There is no part of Lebanon that is under Israeli control as Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon a decade ago. And the only reason Israel occupied it in the first place was because Hezbollah was using it as a staging area for terrorist attacks against Israel. Fortunaetly they are a bit busy at the moment but when Syrian civil war is resolved they will be able to turn their terrorist focus back onto Israel.

The two state are not going to leave the area and a suitable solution should be found as there is no alternative.

But Hamas and Hezbollah are not parts of the solution any more than NSDAP was a part of the solution for post WWII Germany.

Hamas and Hezbollah have not attacked Western targets abroad as far as I see.

First they came for Israelis, and I did not speak out ...

I believe Hamas was thought to have made one attack but it was not confirmed.

So what? Is their terrorism any better if they only murder Jews?

The Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other but deaths from Israeli airstrikes and ground forces are much higher than Hamas inflicts.

Righteousness of a cause is not a function of the endured death toll. "Root for the underdog because just because he is the underdog" may work for sports and some movies but works rather poorly in real life.

It's been quiet in Lebanon during the past few years.

Only because Hezbollah has been busy in Syria. But Hezbollah is rattling sabers again.

When two jack asses fight each other, we can’t say who is right and who is wrong.

Hamas was elected in the Palestinian elections which the US helped to broker. This is whether we liked it or not.
The actions of Hamas and Hezbollah nor the actions of anyone else are part of the solution, hence the conflict.

The Israelis and Hamas have been periodically killing each other. The Israelis have more fire power and have been able to kill more of Hamas. Hamas has concentrated its conflict with Israel where both parties through ignorance failed to recognise each other’s right to exist.

Hamas and the Israelis don’t get it; both are not leaving the region so the wars will achieve nothing.

It’s not about the movies, because in some respects both are as bad as each other.

What’s wrong with Hezbollah going into Syria. The US has wet nursed enemies of Assad, many of whom are Islamist fanatics so what. This is an Arab regional war where it has chosen sides.
Now ISIS roams freely in the chaos created by the power vacuum in Iraq, parts of Syria and Libya.

Of course Hezbollah are doing a lot of sabre rattling and dick wagging; The West and the Zionist factions in Israel have inadvertently encouraged it;
Even more absurdity is that most most of the Palestinians could be descended from Jews. This would need more research which would further reinforce that both the idiots would have a right to be there in the first place.

http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/The-lost-Palestinian-Jews

After years of research, Misinai says that he can declare with certainty that nearly 90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews. "And what's more, about half of them know it," he says. Not only that, many Palestinians retain Jewish customs, including mourning rituals, lighting Shabbat or memorial candles and even wearing tefillin.

 

[SimpleDon]

Why is that a lowpoint?

Eisenhower's overturning of democracy in Iran in 1953

Mosaddegh's regime wasn't exactly democratic. He gave himself decree powers and he suspended the counting of votes so he would remain ahead.

and his reaction to the Suez crisis,

Correct. US shamefully backed Egypt against Israel, UK and France.

etc. through every administration except possibly Carter's

Carter, who threw the Shah under the bus and whose UN ambassador thought Khomeini was "some kind of saint".

until we get to the roots of our current problems,

The root of the problems is Islam. It is the goat fucker who made up a story that Gabriel dictated a book to him in order to unify Arab tribes to conquer the Middle East (and beyond).

Reagan's abandonment of the 200 year old policy to not negotiate with terrorists,

Wasn't Ollie North acting on his own?

his failure to act against the terrorists who bombed the Marine barracks, through W. Bush's invasion of Iraq and his post-invasion incompetence that carried over to Obama, that gave us ISIS.

Had Reagan intervened more forcefully you would have lamented that as well.

While admittedly this is easy hindsight, there is no indication that even this is being done in our public discussions today, and if our current turn to the know-nothingism of Trump is any indication, it is becoming even less likely and we are dooming ourselves to keep making mistakes in our Middle East policies well into the future.

The biggest mistake Europe is making right now is importing millions of Muslims from the Middle East.

"Wasn't Ollie North acting on his own?" You break me up sometimes with your finely tuned sarcasm.

I was flying for the Marines when the barracks was blown up in Lebanon, killing 241 of my brother Marines. Reagan answered by withdrawing from Lebanon and invading Grenada, an island 4000 miles from the Middle East. The terrorists weren't impressed for some reason. I wouldn't have complained about a more forceful response. When the terrorists killed the KGB resident in BeIrut the Russians hung up a good portion of the leadership of the terrorists with piano wire.

I take it that you are a supporter of Reagan's response in this case and our Middle Eastern policies in general?

That you don't believe that the invasion of Iraq had anything to do with the formation of ISIS?

I was raised by atheist parents so that I am not in anyway an expert on religion. But isn't the problem with "radical Islam" more of a problem with religious fundamentalism than it is with the Muslim faith? There seem to be many more secular Muslims, Turkey, Lebanon, a good portion of Iran, etc. than fundamentalists. I don't see where there is a problem with Europe admitting refugees and immigrants that are Muslim.

And wasn't Israel founded by religious fundamentalists? Who believed that a fantasy written by story tellers during the Babylonian captivity somehow justified their claims on land that the Palestinians had occupied for thousands of years.