So, the Obama and Clinton Haters don't want to talk about Flint?

[RavenSky]

Lead is particularly dangerous because once it gets into a person's system, it is distributed throughout the body just like helpful minerals such as iron, calcium, and zinc. And lead can cause harm wherever it lands in the body. In the bloodstream, for example, it can damage red blood cells and limit their ability to carry oxygen to the organs and tissues that need it, thus causing anemia.

Most lead ends up in the bone, where it causes even more problems. Lead can interfere with the production of blood cells and the absorption of calcium that bones need to grow healthy and strong. Calcium is essential for strong bones and teeth, muscle contraction, and nerve and blood vessel function.

Lead poisoning can lead to a variety of health problems in kids, including:

decreased bone and muscle growth
poor muscle coordination
damage to the nervous system, kidneys, and/or hearing
speech and language problems
developmental delay
seizures and unconsciousness (in cases of extremely high lead levels)

6,000 children affected in Flint Michigan. Some of the damage done to these children is permanent.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Lead is particularly dangerous because once it gets into a person's system, it is distributed throughout the body just like helpful minerals such as iron, calcium, and zinc. And lead can cause harm wherever it lands in the body. In the bloodstream, for example, it can damage red blood cells and limit their ability to carry oxygen to the organs and tissues that need it, thus causing anemia.

Most lead ends up in the bone, where it causes even more problems. Lead can interfere with the production of blood cells and the absorption of calcium that bones need to grow healthy and strong. Calcium is essential for strong bones and teeth, muscle contraction, and nerve and blood vessel function.

Lead poisoning can lead to a variety of health problems in kids, including:

decreased bone and muscle growth
poor muscle coordination
damage to the nervous system, kidneys, and/or hearing
speech and language problems
developmental delay
seizures and unconsciousness (in cases of extremely high lead levels)

6,000 children affected in Flint Michigan. Some of the damage done to these children is permanent.

I don't believe there is evidence that children have been overtly affected, however. Lead levels in blood tests didn't seem to show a widespread issue. Increases in lead in blood appeared to be seasonal.

The trouble seems to be that even at this point, there is no real understanding as to the situation right now. Regarding lead, who is affected, how much worse is it now compared to before the switch?

 

[Horatio Parker]

Very good article by Matt Latimer (former GWB speech writer) on Flint and conservatives on minority and poor people's issues.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/21/opinion/republicans-ignore-a-poisoned-city.html

I was born and grew up there, I left in 1981 when the decline was just getting going. My father was plant statistician for plant 4(Chevrolet), which made engines down in the pit. I worked there in the summers during college, on the straight six line(which engines powered among other things Checker Cabs). The river, encased in concrete, flowed next to the compound. Nobody ever did anything in that river, never once saw a boat or a fisherman. I was surprised, to put it mildly, when I learned they were getting their water from it. My nephew was living within the city limits until a few months ago, I hope he won't have any health problems. I have other relatives in the surrounding area, but I assume as a matter of course that they were not getting water from the city.

It makes wonder if that place is ever going to bottom out.

 

[Playball40]

wrong wrong wrong. The lead is leaching from the pipes due to the corrosive qualities in the water.

Yes, yes it is.

Since when have you been in favor of EPA regulations? Shouldn't the free market deal with that? Why is there lead in the water anyway? Did government regulators put it there?

Pretty sure this story is not about me.

But if you can find some quotes where I have said we should pay EPA regulators to do nothing while people are being poisoned feel free to produce them.

If you read the article, the lead is in the water because the Flint water department (aka the government) did not treat the water properly (aka their job).

- - - Updated - - -

I believe at least one pediatrician indicated lead levels in children tripling since the water switch.

6,000 children affected in Flint Michigan. Some of the damage done to these children is permanent.

I don't believe there is evidence that children have been overtly affected, however. Lead levels in blood tests didn't seem to show a widespread issue. Increases in lead in blood appeared to be seasonal.

The trouble seems to be that even at this point, there is no real understanding as to the situation right now. Regarding lead, who is affected, how much worse is it now compared to before the switch?

 

[dismal]

wrong wrong wrong. The lead is leaching from the pipes due to the corrosive qualities in the water.

The water had corrosive properties because it was not treated properly.

The Flint Water Department failed to treat it properly. The MDEQ, who signed off on the Flint Water Department's water treatment plan, failed to ensure the plan was effective then covered it up with a bogus sampling process and misleading comments to the EPA about corrosion control equipment. The EPA had experts bringing forth knowledge of the problems and did nothing.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

wrong wrong wrong. The lead is leaching from the pipes due to the corrosive qualities in the water.

The water had corrosive properties because it was not treated properly.

The Flint Water Department failed to treat it properly. The MDEQ, who signed off on the Flint Water Department's water treatment plan, failed to ensure the plan was effective then covered it up with a bogus sampling process and misleading comments to the EPA about corrosion control equipment. The EPA had experts bringing forth knowledge of the problems and did nothing.

Regardless the source of the water, the water supply has to be deemed safe and healthy. So I have to agree with dismal here that the process of treatment was not properly executed. You don't take water from the Flint or any river and pipe it into people's homes without tests and doing science. Someone certainly had to know the water was shit.

 

[ronburgundy]

IOW, a severe lack of government regulation due to Koch Bros backed Govenor handing executive powers from elected officials to his own handpicked corporate Banker buddy, who began typical "libertarian" government slashing measures and trying to run the city with a corporate mentality (i.e, has zero regard for harm done to people).

I'll try to break this slow so heads don't explode: MDEQ and EPA are the government regulators.

And those agencies are "at fault" in the sense that they did not do enough to stop the libertarian governor and his corporate appointees from engaging in illegal and harmful practices of the sort that is typical of corporate mindsets (profits over lives) but completely incompatible with the functions of government.

 

[dismal]

I'll try to break this slow so heads don't explode: MDEQ and EPA are the government regulators.

And those agencies are "at fault" in the sense that they did not do enough to stop the libertarian governor and his corporate appointees from engaging in illegal and harmful practices of the sort that is typical of corporate mindsets (profits over lives) but completely incompatible with the functions of government.

Holy shitfuck. The people who fucked this up are the professional government employees whose job it is to treat the fricking water, and the regulatory agency employees whose job it is to ensure the treatment plan is effective. Elected officials are not supposed know more about water treatment than water treatment experts. They hire professional civil servants to be water treatment experts. These water treatment experts work across multiple political administrations because knowing how to treat water is not a political issue . The water experts in charge of Flint's water and at the MDEQ failed to do their jobs.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'll try to break this slow so heads don't explode: MDEQ and EPA are the government regulators.

And those agencies are "at fault" in the sense that they did not do enough to stop the libertarian governor and his corporate appointees from engaging in illegal and harmful practices of the sort that is typical of corporate mindsets (profits over lives) but completely incompatible with the functions of government.

The leader of the MDEQ is appointed by the Governor's Office. It was also a member of the Governor's Office that made the call to switch from Detroit water.

 

[ronburgundy]

IOW, a severe lack of government regulation due to Koch Bros backed Govenor handing executive powers from elected officials to his own handpicked corporate Banker buddy, who began typical "libertarian" government slashing measures and trying to run the city with a corporate mentality (i.e, has zero regard for harm done to people).

Had the "elected officials" not bankrupted the city there would be no need or ability to appoint an emergency manager.

Yeah, I'm sure that the 65% population drop over 2 generations and the national high unemployment of those who remain isn't the cause of the government having no revenues to maintain the massive infrastructure that was created to accommodate 3 times the number of people.

Fortunately, the elected official named Obama prevented the situation from being much much worse than it is today by his highly successful bailouts of the auto manufacturers that not only kept about 600,000 people in the area from losing jobs, but created new jobs for about 250,000.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

And those agencies are "at fault" in the sense that they did not do enough to stop the libertarian governor and his corporate appointees from engaging in illegal and harmful practices of the sort that is typical of corporate mindsets (profits over lives) but completely incompatible with the functions of government.

The leader of the MDEQ is appointed by the Governor's Office. It was also a member of the Governor's Office that made the call to switch from Detroit water.

But doesn't make them guilty of anything other than being better politicians than public servants. Nothing new there. And if they hired cronies ala W and FEMA style, people who didn't know shit except how to suck political dick, then there still isn't anything new there.

 

[Playball40]

I'll try to break this slow so heads don't explode: MDEQ and EPA are the government regulators.

And those agencies are "at fault" in the sense that they did not do enough to stop the libertarian governor and his corporate appointees from engaging in illegal and harmful practices of the sort that is typical of corporate mindsets (profits over lives) but completely incompatible with the functions of government.

Agreed. One has to wonder WHY the MDEQ didn't want to expend the cost to treat the water with anti-corrosives. Why would ANYONE do that? Cost, perhaps? It would add expense to their idiot idea to move from Detroit's water system BEFORE they had the infrastructure to pull from Lake Huron. EVERYONE knew Flint River was filthy. Everyone! They didn't care because it didn't fit into their little cost cutting narrative. The hell with the poisoned people. The EM's would be long gone and Snyder will just cover his ass and find his scapegoats to blame. Criminal charges should be brought. This wasn't an 'oops, forgot to treat the water.' This was a deliberate poisoning of a town in order to show on paper that you saved a few bucks. Sick...just sick.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And those agencies are "at fault" in the sense that they did not do enough to stop the libertarian governor and his corporate appointees from engaging in illegal and harmful practices of the sort that is typical of corporate mindsets (profits over lives) but completely incompatible with the functions of government.

Agreed. One has to wonder WHY the MDEQ didn't want to expend the cost to treat the water with anti-corrosives. Why would ANYONE do that? Cost, perhaps? It would add expense to their idiot idea to move from Detroit's water system BEFORE they had the infrastructure to pull from Lake Huron. EVERYONE knew Flint River was filthy. Everyone! They didn't care because it didn't fit into their little cost cutting narrative. The hell with the poisoned people. The EM's would be long gone and Snyder will just cover his ass and find his scapegoats to blame. Criminal charges should be brought. This wasn't an 'oops, forgot to treat the water.' This was a deliberate poisoning of a town in order to show on paper that you saved a few bucks. Sick...just sick.

The trouble is, it isn't just lead. The water tested positive for e coli. e fucking coli! Is this Mexico?!

Based on how they were treating the water, it almost looks like they knew they couldn't handle it and DEQ didn't give a fuck. I'd like to see the emails from the Water Treatment Plant.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Flint used to use Flint River as their water source before the late 1960s and treated it with lime. Of course, the pipes were 50 to 60 years younger then.

 

[dismal]

And those agencies are "at fault" in the sense that they did not do enough to stop the libertarian governor and his corporate appointees from engaging in illegal and harmful practices of the sort that is typical of corporate mindsets (profits over lives) but completely incompatible with the functions of government.

Agreed. One has to wonder WHY the MDEQ didn't want to expend the cost to treat the water with anti-corrosives. Why would ANYONE do that? Cost, perhaps? It would add expense to their idiot idea to move from Detroit's water system BEFORE they had the infrastructure to pull from Lake Huron. EVERYONE knew Flint River was filthy. Everyone! They didn't care because it didn't fit into their little cost cutting narrative. The hell with the poisoned people. The EM's would be long gone and Snyder will just cover his ass and find his scapegoats to blame. Criminal charges should be brought. This wasn't an 'oops, forgot to treat the water.' This was a deliberate poisoning of a town in order to show on paper that you saved a few bucks. Sick...just sick.

Near as I can tell this has nothing to do with the Flint river being filthy. It has to do with the water not being treated to the proper pH at the water treatment plant before being put into the pipes.

As for saving some bucks on water this seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. They were getting gouged by their current ruthless and greedy and evil water vendor and decided "you know what always works, brah, socialism; let's build and own and operate our own water system so we control the means of production so we don't have to buy water anymore." A perfectly reasonable thing to do if the people you are paying to be your water systems and process experts don't cock everything up.

 

[dismal]

Flint used to use Flint River as their water source before the late 1960s and treated it with lime. Of course, the pipes were 50 to 60 years younger then.

Doesn't sound like the age of the pipes is the issue. By putting water through the pipes at the wrong pH they dissolved the protective oxides that build up in the pipe to keep the water from coming in contact with the lead. Notably switching back to Detroit water now doesn't fix this.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Agreed. One has to wonder WHY the MDEQ didn't want to expend the cost to treat the water with anti-corrosives. Why would ANYONE do that? Cost, perhaps? It would add expense to their idiot idea to move from Detroit's water system BEFORE they had the infrastructure to pull from Lake Huron. EVERYONE knew Flint River was filthy. Everyone! They didn't care because it didn't fit into their little cost cutting narrative. The hell with the poisoned people. The EM's would be long gone and Snyder will just cover his ass and find his scapegoats to blame. Criminal charges should be brought. This wasn't an 'oops, forgot to treat the water.' This was a deliberate poisoning of a town in order to show on paper that you saved a few bucks. Sick...just sick.

The trouble is, it isn't just lead. The water tested positive for e coli. e fucking coli! Is this Mexico?!

Based on how they were treating the water, it almost looks like they knew they couldn't handle it and DEQ didn't give a fuck. I'd like to see the emails from the Water Treatment Plant.

Will this one from the Governor do?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Side note:
Before this hit those evil "socialists" in my state voted in a tax that funds clean water. This tax will expire in 2034 and is adjusted for inflation. We now have the money to really study the problems we face and offer real solutions. Next month the Governor is hosting a water summit and people are anticipating the meeting.

The reason why I bring this up is that it might be a good idea to get your state to put aside the money in hopes to avoid things that are happening in Michigan.

 

[dismal]

Side note:
Before this hit those evil "socialists" in my state voted in a tax that funds clean water. This tax will expire in 2034 and is adjusted for inflation. We now have the money to really study the problems we face and offer real solutions. Next month the Governor is hosting a water summit and people are anticipating the meeting.

The reason why I bring this up is that it might be a good idea to get your state to put aside the money in hopes to avoid things that are happening in Michigan.

It doesn't sound like this happened from a lack of money. They obviously had access to enough money to build the new water pipeline and restart their water treatment plant.

I read in one article that the chemicals required to treat the water cost $60 per day. I have not seen it mentioned anywhere that that requests for the money to fund these chemicals was denied. The Flint Water Department and the MDEQ just appear to have dropped the ball.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Side note:
Before this hit those evil "socialists" in my state voted in a tax that funds clean water. This tax will expire in 2034 and is adjusted for inflation. We now have the money to really study the problems we face and offer real solutions. Next month the Governor is hosting a water summit and people are anticipating the meeting.

The reason why I bring this up is that it might be a good idea to get your state to put aside the money in hopes to avoid things that are happening in Michigan.

It doesn't sound like this happened from a lack of money. They obviously had access to enough money to build the new water pipeline and restart their water treatment plant.

What are you talking about? I did not write about Flint in any way other than to mention that we are trying to avoid such situation by taking proactive action on water quality.

I read in one article that the chemicals required to treat the water cost $60 per day.

Really. You must be quite proud.