So what went wrong in post-colonial Africa?

[Loren Pechtel]

The IQ average for sub Saharan Africa is 75 and below. In comparison with other regions where average IQ is 95+ (N. America, Europe, East Asia), Africa is performing as would be expected. The blame colonialism argument seems right on first review, but this forgets that Europe and East Asia also have a long history of war and ethic strife. Yet, these conflicts, some very destructive (e.g. 30 years war; Taiping Rebellion) did not throw these regions into perpetual stagnation. And while colonial masters certainly exploited their colonies for the benefit of the empire, they also brought writing, modern medicine, civil service, schools, cash economies, roads, etc. What did the Romans ever do for us?

When Africa was decolonized there were no schools. The best education a colonial African subject could expect was whatever superstitious bullshit his local catholic missionary told him. So I'm hardly surprised that Post-Colonial Africa is on average less intelligent than the rest of the world (If that's even true...)

It's not schools, it's disease and poor nutrition that's the problem.

 

[J842P]

When Africa was decolonized there were no schools. The best education a colonial African subject could expect was whatever superstitious bullshit his local catholic missionary told him. So I'm hardly surprised that Post-Colonial Africa is on average less intelligent than the rest of the world (If that's even true...)

It's not schools, it's disease and poor nutrition that's the problem.

Definitely a huge part of it in certain regions of Africa. I don't think people comprehend the toll a disease like malaria can take on a population.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Yeah I'm sure centuries of slavery, colonialism etc. has nothing to do with the state of Africa.

That's a relief.

 

[J842P]

Yeah I'm sure centuries of slavery, colonialism etc. has nothing to do with the state of Africa.

That's a relief.

Isn't this thread about the effects of colonialism on Africa? At least, it seems to be implicit in the title "what went wrong in post-colonial Africa."

 

[DrZoidberg]

The IQ average for sub Saharan Africa is 75 and below. In comparison with other regions where average IQ is 95+ (N. America, Europe, East Asia), Africa is performing as would be expected. The blame colonialism argument seems right on first review, but this forgets that Europe and East Asia also have a long history of war and ethic strife. Yet, these conflicts, some very destructive (e.g. 30 years war; Taiping Rebellion) did not throw these regions into perpetual stagnation. And while colonial masters certainly exploited their colonies for the benefit of the empire, they also brought writing, modern medicine, civil service, schools, cash economies, roads, etc. What did the Romans ever do for us?

Also, IQ is a bullshit measurement of intelligence. Just having gone to school dramatically increases IQ. The more illiterate people in a society the lower the IQ. And the number of illiterate people is linked to money. Nobody thinks that rich people are genetically smarter than poor people.

 

[J842P]

The IQ average for sub Saharan Africa is 75 and below. In comparison with other regions where average IQ is 95+ (N. America, Europe, East Asia), Africa is performing as would be expected. The blame colonialism argument seems right on first review, but this forgets that Europe and East Asia also have a long history of war and ethic strife. Yet, these conflicts, some very destructive (e.g. 30 years war; Taiping Rebellion) did not throw these regions into perpetual stagnation. And while colonial masters certainly exploited their colonies for the benefit of the empire, they also brought writing, modern medicine, civil service, schools, cash economies, roads, etc. What did the Romans ever do for us?

IQ is a relative measure. You would have to explain why modern Africans, who are scoring in the 75 range now and would actually score above the European average of about a 100 years ago, are encountering problems that Europeans were able to surpass 100 years ago.

It is also a cart-before-the horse situation: Africa is underdeveloped. Poor nutrition and tropical diseases are rampant in huge swaths of the continent. All of this would suppress IQ at the population level.

- - - Updated - - -

The IQ average for sub Saharan Africa is 75 and below. In comparison with other regions where average IQ is 95+ (N. America, Europe, East Asia), Africa is performing as would be expected. The blame colonialism argument seems right on first review, but this forgets that Europe and East Asia also have a long history of war and ethic strife. Yet, these conflicts, some very destructive (e.g. 30 years war; Taiping Rebellion) did not throw these regions into perpetual stagnation. And while colonial masters certainly exploited their colonies for the benefit of the empire, they also brought writing, modern medicine, civil service, schools, cash economies, roads, etc. What did the Romans ever do for us?

When Africa was decolonized there were no schools. The best education a colonial African subject could expect was whatever superstitious bullshit his local catholic missionary told him. So I'm hardly surprised that Post-Colonial Africa is on average less intelligent than the rest of the world (If that's even true...)

This would not address the IQ difference. IQ is designed to measure something which is not affected by education as much as possible.

 

[J842P]

The IQ average for sub Saharan Africa is 75 and below. In comparison with other regions where average IQ is 95+ (N. America, Europe, East Asia), Africa is performing as would be expected. The blame colonialism argument seems right on first review, but this forgets that Europe and East Asia also have a long history of war and ethic strife. Yet, these conflicts, some very destructive (e.g. 30 years war; Taiping Rebellion) did not throw these regions into perpetual stagnation. And while colonial masters certainly exploited their colonies for the benefit of the empire, they also brought writing, modern medicine, civil service, schools, cash economies, roads, etc. What did the Romans ever do for us?

Also, IQ is a bullshit measurement of intelligence. Just having gone to school dramatically increases IQ. The more illiterate people in a society the lower the IQ. And the number of illiterate people is linked to money. Nobody thinks that rich people are genetically smarter than poor people.

IQ is not "bullshit."

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yeah I'm sure centuries of slavery, colonialism etc. has nothing to do with the state of Africa.

That's a relief.

Isn't this thread about the effects of colonialism on Africa? At least, it seems to be implicit in the title "what went wrong in post-colonial Africa."

It's more specific. It's about why some African countries have gotten their act together and are now doing fine, while other countries aren't. Nigeria is democratic and stable now. Except the Boko Haram nonsense in the deep north eastern jungles. But the rest of the country is doing great now. Their next door neighbour Cameroon, a disaster. Kenya is doing fine now. Their next door neighbour Uganda, a total disaster.

Why is it going so well for some of them, but not all? We can't blame the cold war anymore. Colonialism, meh. It's been a lot of water under the bridge now. What's the problem now?

I'm just curious. I can't explain it. I don't have any theory or idea. Just seems strange to me.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Also, IQ is a bullshit measurement of intelligence. Just having gone to school dramatically increases IQ. The more illiterate people in a society the lower the IQ. And the number of illiterate people is linked to money. Nobody thinks that rich people are genetically smarter than poor people.

IQ is not "bullshit."

What do you mean? At no point have serious researchers ever claimed IQ can measure intelligence in adults. That has always been pseudo scientific nonsense. What IQ is great at is identifying retardation in children. That's what it's for, and the only thing it's ever managed to accurately measure. The rest is all nonsense.

 

[Trausti]

The IQ average for sub Saharan Africa is 75 and below. In comparison with other regions where average IQ is 95+ (N. America, Europe, East Asia), Africa is performing as would be expected. The blame colonialism argument seems right on first review, but this forgets that Europe and East Asia also have a long history of war and ethic strife. Yet, these conflicts, some very destructive (e.g. 30 years war; Taiping Rebellion) did not throw these regions into perpetual stagnation. And while colonial masters certainly exploited their colonies for the benefit of the empire, they also brought writing, modern medicine, civil service, schools, cash economies, roads, etc. What did the Romans ever do for us?

When Africa was decolonized there were no schools. The best education a colonial African subject could expect was whatever superstitious bullshit his local catholic missionary told him. So I'm hardly surprised that Post-Colonial Africa is on average less intelligent than the rest of the world (If that's even true...)

There's a lot of ignorance about colonial policies. What can be said is that in British colonies, as opposed to French, the populace had a longer period of education. But both the British and French set up primary and secondary schools. Where do you think the African nationalists / revolutionaries went to school?

http://www.eldis.org/vfile/upload/1/document/0708/DOC20078.pdf

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yeah I'm sure centuries of slavery, colonialism etc. has nothing to do with the state of Africa.

That's a relief.

Europe had centuries of monarchy. Sweden was a godawful totalitarian state right up until 1860 about, when it gradually became increasingly liberal. 1919 we first got free and fair elections.

Europe wasn't a glorious utopian land of the free. This has been a really shitty place. It's been shittier longer than it's been free and democratic.

Just blaming it on slavery and colonialism I think is a bit too easy.

 

[J842P]

IQ is not "bullshit."

What do you mean? At no point have serious researchers ever claimed IQ can measure intelligence in adults. That has always been pseudo scientific nonsense. What IQ is great at is identifying retardation in children. That's what it's for, and the only thing it's ever managed to accurately measure. The rest is all nonsense.

Uh, no, this isn't true at all. You could characterize the eponymous Intelligenzquotient developed by Stern in the late 19th century that way, but research in psychology and psychometrics has moved along quite a bit since then. Modern researchers use IQ to measure the so-called g factor, but modern "IQ" tests have barely anything at all in common with Sterns' test, which was, as you say, designed to be a meausre of childhood cognitive development. You are repeating the typical leftist position on IQ, which is as unbiased as the right-wing view of global warming.

 

[DrZoidberg]

When Africa was decolonized there were no schools. The best education a colonial African subject could expect was whatever superstitious bullshit his local catholic missionary told him. So I'm hardly surprised that Post-Colonial Africa is on average less intelligent than the rest of the world (If that's even true...)

There's a lot of ignorance about colonial policies. What can be said is that in British colonies, as opposed to French, the populace had a longer period of education. But both the British and French set up primary and secondary schools. Where do you think the African nationalists / revolutionaries went to school?

http://www.eldis.org/vfile/upload/1/document/0708/DOC20078.pdf

It was a mixed bag. But both the British and the French did their best, to on purpose fuck with the new indipendent parliaments. Both were butt hurt that the African people didn't love them and wanted to stay colonies, in their referendums. So they punished them by snatching away everything not nailed down. That included a lot of the African talent. There's been a massive brain drain from Africa into Europe and USA since de-colonisation. That really hasn't helped matters.

Reading up on the de-colonisation process the colonial powers behaved incredibly childishly. They were like petulant children who weren't allowed to play with their friends toy anymore. Back then it was also quite ok to be outrageously racist. Even the most sensible people back then held opinions we today would find highly questionable. That whole thing didn't really start to change until the 70'ies. The amount of racist bullshit the new leaders from these new independent nations had to deal with is.... so terrible... I get embarrassed just reading about it.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Yeah I'm sure centuries of slavery, colonialism etc. has nothing to do with the state of Africa.

That's a relief.

Europe had centuries of monarchy. Sweden was a godawful totalitarian state right up until 1860 about, when it gradually became increasingly liberal. 1919 we first got free and fair elections.

Europe wasn't a glorious utopian land of the free. This has been a really shitty place. It's been shittier longer than it's been free and democratic.

Just blaming it on slavery and colonialism I think is a bit too easy.

We don't want to be easy do we?

But I don't think the stance of the developed world towards Africa and the Third World generally could be characterized as benevolent.

Wealth flows from the developing world to the developed world.

 

[Trausti]

IQ is not "bullshit."

What do you mean? At no point have serious researchers ever claimed IQ can measure intelligence in adults. That has always been pseudo scientific nonsense. What IQ is great at is identifying retardation in children. That's what it's for, and the only thing it's ever managed to accurately measure. The rest is all nonsense.

IQ is one of the most reliable and replicable measurements in psychology. The pseudo-science emanates from those who are biophobic and prefer the fiction of a blank slate.

https://mobile.twitter.com/sapinker/status/645301814955388930

 

[DrZoidberg]

What do you mean? At no point have serious researchers ever claimed IQ can measure intelligence in adults. That has always been pseudo scientific nonsense. What IQ is great at is identifying retardation in children. That's what it's for, and the only thing it's ever managed to accurately measure. The rest is all nonsense.

Uh, no, this isn't true at all. You could characterize the eponymous Intelligenzquotient developed by Stern in the late 19th century that way, but research in psychology and psychometrics has moved along quite a bit since then. Modern researchers use IQ to measure the so-called g factor, but modern "IQ" tests have barely anything at all in common with Sterns' test, which was, as you say, designed to be a meausre of childhood cognitive development. You are repeating the typical leftist position on IQ, which is as unbiased as the right-wing view of global warming.

ha ha... how the hell did you manage to work politics into this? But sure, the far right has always loved trying to use the IQ to prove white supremacy. But I don't think it's polite to drag regular right wingers into that brown puddle of dirt.

But perhaps, start your own thread about this? In the pseudo science sub-forum?

 

[J842P]

There's a lot of ignorance about colonial policies. What can be said is that in British colonies, as opposed to French, the populace had a longer period of education. But both the British and French set up primary and secondary schools. Where do you think the African nationalists / revolutionaries went to school?

http://www.eldis.org/vfile/upload/1/document/0708/DOC20078.pdf

It was a mixed bag. But both the British and the French did their best, to on purpose fuck with the new indipendent parliaments. Both were butt hurt that the African people didn't love them and wanted to stay colonies, in their referendums. So they punished them by snatching away everything not nailed down. That included a lot of the African talent. There's been a massive brain drain from Africa into Europe and USA since de-colonisation. That really hasn't helped matters.

Reading up on the de-colonisation process the colonial powers behaved incredibly childishly. They were like petulant children who weren't allowed to play with their friends toy anymore. Back then it was also quite ok to be outrageously racist. Even the most sensible people back then held opinions we today would find highly questionable. That whole thing didn't really start to change until the 70'ies. The amount of racist bullshit the new leaders from these new independent nations had to deal with is.... so terrible... I get embarrassed just reading about it.

Definitely, it is important to keep in mind that there was no single form of European colonialism in Africa (and the world at large). There was British Colonialism, and French Colonialism, and Spanish colonialism etc.

It seems the areas exposed to British colonialism tend to do better than Spanish or French.

 

[DrZoidberg]

What do you mean? At no point have serious researchers ever claimed IQ can measure intelligence in adults. That has always been pseudo scientific nonsense. What IQ is great at is identifying retardation in children. That's what it's for, and the only thing it's ever managed to accurately measure. The rest is all nonsense.

IQ is one of the most reliable and replicable measurements in psychology. The pseudo-science emanates from those who are biophobic and prefer the fiction of a blank slate.

https://mobile.twitter.com/sapinker/status/645301814955388930

I didn't say it wasn't replicable. But what we need to figure out is what it measures. Last time I checked, that's still a mystery

 

[J842P]

Uh, no, this isn't true at all. You could characterize the eponymous Intelligenzquotient developed by Stern in the late 19th century that way, but research in psychology and psychometrics has moved along quite a bit since then. Modern researchers use IQ to measure the so-called g factor, but modern "IQ" tests have barely anything at all in common with Sterns' test, which was, as you say, designed to be a meausre of childhood cognitive development. You are repeating the typical leftist position on IQ, which is as unbiased as the right-wing view of global warming.

ha ha... how the hell did you manage to work politics into this? But sure, the far right has always loved trying to use the IQ to prove white supremacy. But I don't think it's polite to drag regular right wingers into that brown puddle of dirt.

But perhaps, start your own thread about this? In the pseudo science sub-forum?

Because you are the one holding politically motivated opinions on the subject. They are certainly not informed by psychological science. They are the typical left-wing position. And I hate to break it to you, but left-wing partisans are very-anti-science when it suits them.

In any event, I have no desire to bring you up to speed on a century's worth of cognitive neuroscience. My areas of expertise are anatomy and physiology, anyway, so I couldn't do it justice, but I have at least taken the graduate level courses on these subjects, albeit at a survey level, and you can choose to believe me or not, but I can tell you that your ideas are about as out of touch with psychological science as your typical creationist's refutation of evolution "There's a lot of controversy in evilution, and many scientists don't take it seriously. It is bullshit because if we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"

Seriously, that is how you sound to anyone actually informed on the subject. You aren't even wrong.

 

[Trausti]

IQ is one of the most reliable and replicable measurements in psychology. The pseudo-science emanates from those who are biophobic and prefer the fiction of a blank slate.

https://mobile.twitter.com/sapinker/status/645301814955388930

I didn't say it wasn't replicable. But what we need to figure out is what it measures. Last time I checked, that's still a mystery

So it's just a wacky coincidence that countries with 95+ IQ are economically dominate; that people with 100+ IQ dominate the high-paid technical professions? I'd be more inclined to be dismissive of IQ if the relationship between IQ and achievement wasn't so robust.