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So who was Yahweh, anyway?

Yahweh? No way! (ancient joke)

Culturally Catholic, when I encounter Yahweh, I always brainhear a song I heard from the guitar girls at the 11:30am, "We Sleep In Late For Folk Mass" late Sunday Mass at my church:

Yahweh, I knowwwww you are neeeeearrrr meeee

Standing alwaaayyyyys at my siiiii-iiide

You guide me from afar

And you le-ee-ad me in waaay-aaays everlasting
 
Yahweh? No way! (ancient joke)

Culturally Catholic, when I encounter Yahweh, I always brainhear a song I heard from the guitar girls at the 11:30am, "We Sleep In Late For Folk Mass" late Sunday Mass at my church:

Yahweh, I knowwwww you are neeeeearrrr meeee

Standing alwaaayyyyys at my siiiii-iiide

You guide me from afar

And you le-ee-ad me in waaay-aaays everlasting
It's always nice to meet people who actually talk about how they hear the music!

Out of silly amusement, can you also render an apple? And how many sensory dimensions can you get?

I'm halfway tempted to just start a stupid "can you render an apple" thread for people to try the exercise with a poll and everything, but I'm lazy and it's late.
 
The song god hears when he thinks about us non believers.

'I hear you knockin' but you can;t come in'

Yahweh is obviously a projection of the patriarchal male of an enchant wandering nomadic camel jockeys.

No different than the Greek gods being manifestations of human attributes.
 
Did Yahweh have a Heaven? I'm not clear on that concept. I was taught that only Jesus was the Way. idk, a lot has happened in 45 years... hm.
 
Did Yahweh have a Heaven? I'm not clear on that concept. I was taught that only Jesus was the Way. idk, a lot has happened in 45 years... hm.
Not exactly. Sheol, the Hebrew afterlife, was more like the Greek afterlife you may be more familiar with: a place where all dead go, and without the breath of life to animate them anymore, linger eternally listless. Until the Day of the Lord, when all the holy dead would be raised and Jerusalem raised above all nations. A living apocalypse, not a dead one.
 
The song god hears when he thinks about us non believers.

'I hear you knockin' but you can;t come in'

Yahweh is obviously a projection of the patriarchal male of an enchant wandering nomadic camel jockeys.

No different than the Greek gods being manifestations of human attributes.
You ought to read the book "God: An Anatomy". We have philosophized around the idea of God for hundreds of years and see him today as basically a bodiless mind with all powerful and limitless knowledge. However back in ancient times the worshipers of God had a different idea. He had an actual physical body and form similar to ours just much larger and more powerful. The author talks about his body parts as described in the Bible, pseudo graphical works, and works of neighboring pagans. I'll give you a preview. He has a big penis, Bigger than even Donald Trumps.
 
The song god hears when he thinks about us non believers.

'I hear you knockin' but you can;t come in'

Yahweh is obviously a projection of the patriarchal male of an enchant wandering nomadic camel jockeys.

No different than the Greek gods being manifestations of human attributes.
You ought to read the book "God: An Anatomy". We have philosophized around the idea of God for hundreds of years and see him today as basically a bodiless mind with all powerful and limitless knowledge. However back in ancient times the worshipers of God had a different idea. He had an actual physical body and form similar to ours just much larger and more powerful. The author talks about his body parts as described in the Bible, pseudo graphical works, and works of neighboring pagans. I'll give you a preview. He has a big penis, Bigger than even Donald Trumps.
I posted on the religion forum generally to gain a better understanding of religious beliefs and how to communicate with mostly Christians I interact with in the real world.

A Muslm I knew in the 80s have me teh copy of the Krn I had.


I can respect beliefs out in the world, but to me all gods are products of human imagination. I do not imagine a god as anything but that.

Greek gods are more clear as to what they represent.

In context of Greek mythology Jesus was a demigod. A god for a father and a human mother, with some but not all of the supernatural power of the god.

The Abrahamic god for Muslims, Jews, and especially Christians is whatever the individual thinks it to be. Te term god is used without definition in conversation.
 
Did Yahweh have a Heaven? I'm not clear on that concept. I was taught that only Jesus was the Way. idk, a lot has happened in 45 years... hm.
From what I have read he lived above the heavens but there is a mountain ascribed to him as well.
Oh wow, @BH , do you happen to know the name of the mountain?

My mind's first thought regarding "the mountain" is a vague "can't move... to Mohammad?" I am hazy on the concept, obviously. I am aware of the Christian gospel song (and Biblical concept) of "Go Tell it on the Mountain."

My own little "mountain/Moon" quote is ollllllllder than God; I think it has been attributed to both Confucius and Buddha over the decades or centuries. I used the "many paths up the mountain" line to describe how I was "differently pathed" to some tarot-reading Wellness Women who were leery of me.

I had to leave that particular group because I have immunocompromised friends. Most of the Wellness Women ended up being anti-vaxxers who never understood why they and their kids kept getting the flu.
 
I started this thread because I am interested in the origin of the Judaic religion. The development of the earliest religions is an interesting topic in anthropology. Once we get to the Iron Age I lose interest! Discussion of modern "gods" explores psychology and politics and has little to do with my topic of interest.

Oh wow, BH, do you happen to know the name of the mountain?

The book of Exodus mentions more than one mountain where Moses interacted with Yahweh. It's possible that there was only one key mountain, or perhaps a pair of mountains near each other (disguised as separate mountains so the Israelites don't appear to be traveling in circles! :cool: ). But there is no consensus on which mountain(s) these were.

One possibility that I find very intriguing is Jebel Harun, labeled by Google Maps as "Tomb of High Priest Aaron." It is about 4 miles west of Wadi Musa and "Mousa's Spring." The famed Lost Rock City of Petra is roughly midway between  Jebel Harun (Wikipedia redirects this to 'Mount Hor') and Wadi Musa. (There is at least one other sacred mountain nearby but I'm lazy to Google for details.)

There are several reasons I think this small region -- roughly midway between the Dead Sea and Aqaba -- may have been a very important site for the earliest worshipers of Yahweh:
  • The Petra site is a marvelous and inspiring geological formation. The "rock city" seen today dates to a thousand years after the alleged date of Moses but it would have been a revered site long before that, with or without a "rock city."
  • It acts as an impregnable fortress, especially if a supply of fresh water is provided, as the builders of the rock city did.
  • It is located near important trade routes, and thus would be ideal for Habiru bandits.
  • It is located in or near the territory of Esau/Edom, who was close kin to Jacob/Israel according to Genesis.
  • The earliest reference to 'Yahweh' tells us he was 'in the land of the Shasu' which appears to be in or near that same territory of the Edomites.
 
Did Yahweh have a Heaven? I'm not clear on that concept. I was taught that only Jesus was the Way. idk, a lot has happened in 45 years... hm.
From what I have read he lived above the heavens but there is a mountain ascribed to him as well.
Oh wow, @BH , do you happen to know the name of the mountain?

My mind's first thought regarding "the mountain" is a vague "can't move... to Mohammad?" I am hazy on the concept, obviously. I am aware of the Christian gospel song (and Biblical concept) of "Go Tell it on the Mountain."

My own little "mountain/Moon" quote is ollllllllder than God; I think it has been attributed to both Confucius and Buddha over the decades or centuries. I used the "many paths up the mountain" line to describe how I was "differently pathed" to some tarot-reading Wellness Women who were leery of me.

I had to leave that particular group because I have immunocompromised friends. Most of the Wellness Women ended up being anti-vaxxers who never understood why they and their kids kept getting the flu.
Sorry janice I just got back to this thread. I don't remember if the mountain had a name or not. It's been a long time since I read this. But I will try to find out for you.
 
I think this is the thread to discuss the earliest history of the people who became "the children of Israel." There are many speculations based on similarity of names, and so on. Everyone here tends to be very skeptical of course, but if even a fraction of the speculations are judged correct, major mysteries are resolved! And even if zero of the wild speculations are valid, it still may be appropriate to "tip one's hat" and congratulate those who were able to construct such tightly built hypotheses. There may be intelligent reasons to reject some of these speculations; and I look forward to intelligent debate! Let's all hope the debate goes beyond parroting obvious memes.

Let's first dispose of some obvious objections. Most of the Old Testament was written 1000 years after the alleged dates of Jacob/Israel. That's a VERY long time for purely oral traditions to be preserved. But it is a simple fact that many of the oldest traditions are based on fact. For example, "Most historians generally agree that Gilgamesh was a historical king of the Sumerian city-state of Uruk, who probably ruled sometime during the early part of the Early Dynastic Period ( c. 2900 – 2350 BC)." Gilgamesh's dates are about 1000 years earlier than Jacob's, yet he is considered historic!

Treasure troves of ancient writings preserved on clay have turned up. It was about 50 years ago that tens of thousands of clay documents from the ancient Kingdom of Mari turned up. (This trove is unique in that many of the documents are casual letters between commoners rather than, say, the formal victory memorials many of which have become famous.) No papyrus still survives from such an early date, but the writers of the Old Testament may have had documents written on papyrus, parchment or clay they used as source when composing the Torah. It is thought that there were important libraries in Jerusalem that were destroyed by Rome as part of their massive destructions of Jewry during the late 1st and early 2nd centuries A.D. Evidence that documents have been lost comes from Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews which contains details from ancient Jewish history that are not found in any other known document. Where could Josephus get such information (assuming the details, e.g. specific proper names, were not his own inventions)?

If I don't get discouraged,, I may make some more posts on this topic. In this post I start early in the chronology and mention the Kingdom of Mari, the Hyksos and the exonym "Habiru."

I had never heard of the Mari Kingdom until recently. As you see on the map below, it was a largish country straddling the Euphrates River; it extended from Babylonia up to Urkesh (home of Terru, see below), adjacent to the land of the Hurrians. Mari was eventually conquered by Babylon's famous King Hammurabi himself. It is now thought that about the time Mari was conquered by Hammurabi, some of their people moved en masse to Canaan, then on to northern Egypt as the "Hyksos" people, where they eventually had numbers large enough to take over Northern Egypt, with the Egyptian royals then retreating to Thebes in the Southern Kingdom. "Hyksos" is a Greek word meaning "desert princes." That word seems to derive from the Egyptian term "Hikau khasut." (The Hyksos spoke a West Semitic language, a term that confused me until I realized that ALL extent Semitic languages are in the West Semitic subfamily. East Semitic contained a few extinct languages, e.g. Akkadian.)

There was a Pharaoh during the Hyksos period named  Yaqub-Har. His name is similar to that of the Israeli Patriarch Jacob, but of course that is probably just coincidence. Nevertheless it should be noted that mythmakers do like to incorporate historic persons into their fictions, and the Hyksos were dominant in Canaan before they came to Egypt. Yaqub-Har is in the right time and place to equate to the Biblical patriarch.

Finally let's discuss the exonym "Habiru." These people were mentioned by Sumerian documents as early as 2500 BC, and in many other ancient documents. There are several mentions in Mari documents including one that claims 2000 Habiru soldiers captured the city of Yahmumun but Mari won it back. These early Habiru were probably a tribe of renowned warriors that variously accompanied or fought with the Mari/Hyksos people.

Before discussing the Habiru further, let's consider another exonym: the Gypsies. "Gypsies" are the Romani people who got the Gypsy nickname from Europeans who thought (incorrectly) that they came from Egypt. In time the term was applied to people who were NOT Romani but who as wanderers or itinerants, had a similar life-style to the Romani people.

The source of the Habiru exonym is disputed: some show "people from beyond the river;" others link the word to "dust/dirt." In any case there is clear linguistic evidence that Apiru/Hapiru/Habiru are all the same word. (And only very obstinate pedants will disagree that "Habiru" and "Hebrew" are the same word.) But just as "gypsy" evolved to mean "wanderer" so "habiru" evolved to mean "soldier/mercenary/bandit." In many non-Biblical references to "Habiru/Hebrew" the term (as with "gypsy") is used as an obvious pejorative.

In the Five Books of Moses ALL occurrences of "Hebrew" (with one exception) are spoken by or to Egyptians. When Israelites speak among themselves they refer to their tribe as "the children of Israel." The one exception is the very first mention of "Hebrew" in Genesis: "Abram the Hebrew." This comes before Abram has chatted with God or been granted the Promised Land. Obviously it is a simple ethnonym.

Finally, another name coincidence. Abraham's father was Terah from  Ur of the Chaldees and as Wikipedia shows this is a translation of Ur Kasdim. These names ('dim' is an extraneous suffix) are similar to Terru of Urkesh, documented in Mari records. This name similarity would be useless, except this webpage claims similarities in the stories of Terah and Terru:

... a general public hatred for [Terru]. His letters to [King of Mari] Zimri-Lim reveal that the Hurrian population did not accept him, and the correspondence speaks of hostility and resentment. “Because I have cast my lot with my lord, people in my town hate me. A couple of times I have had to save myself, escaping death”. “They do not speak with me,” Terru lamented to Zimri-Lim in the Mari correspondence. “They speak evil things.” One of Zimri-Lim’s replies follow: “I did not know that the sons of your city hate you on my account. But you are mine, even if the city of Urkesh is not.” The inference is that Zimri-Lim had set up Terru as a regional representative in “your [his] city.”

This public scorn for Terru also parallels the patriarch Terah. The Bible does not give any specific details, but hints at an incredibly tragic series of events. It mentions Haran mysteriously dying “in the presence of his father” (Genesis 11:28) at Ur Kasdim, and that Terah subsequently left the city, taking most of his extended family away with him to a distant location also called Haran (verse 31).

Later classical accounts suggest that Haran was killed by the city’s inhabitants, who hated him and his brother Abraham for their stand against idol worship. Their father Terah, however, had been an idol-worshiper himself (Joshua 24:2)—the circa 400 c.e. Midrash Genesis Rabbah states that he was an astrologer and seller of idols. The first-century historian Josephus wrote that, following the death of his son, “Now Terah hating Chaldea, on account of his mourning for Haran, they all removed to Haran of Mesopotamia” (Antiquities, 1.6.5). Josephus did not give details of Haran’s death, but he related that Abraham personally adopted Haran’s son Lot (hence the close connection between the two in the Bible). Perhaps there was some feeling of responsibility in this; after all, Jewish tradition relates that the primary anger of the pagan city was for Abraham, and that Haran, in following his brother’s lead, had thus been killed. Of Abraham’s early preaching, Josephus wrote that “for which doctrines … the Chaldeans and other people of Mesopotamia raised a tumult against him” (Antiquities, 1.7.1). This would certainly explain a public “hatred” for their father Terah.

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Of course when connecting myth to fact, one must not expect exactness. If Terah and Terru are indeed the same person, and Terah's gt-grandson Jacob the same as the same-named Hyksos Pharaoh, we do NOT expect the Pharaoh to necessarily be Terru's gt-grandson!
 
I just watched a video ( ) which details the "synchronism" between Terah and Terru. It's longish at 15 minutes but expands on my overly brief summary, and mentions (at 11:30) an interesting letter from Terru to King Zimri-Lin. (Zimri-Lin was a contemporary of the Great King Hammurabi; his reign spans 1750 BC.)

Terru of Ur Kesh said:
I am always praying to my lord. I have just now left the comfort of my home and gone out to Sinah to live as habirum. ...
Sinah is a mountain to the West of Harran (which shares a name with Terah's deceased son), itself to the West of Ur Kesh. What is especially interesting is the early mention of habiru. Clearly it is being used as a class designator rather than an ethnonym. David Falk (creator of the video) translates it as "outcast" rather than "mercenary/bandit" but these are close.

Recall from Genesis that Terah/Terru's son Abram is introduced to some Canaanites as "Abram the Habiru/Hebrew."

Can there really be an identity between one of the very earliest individuals in the Genesis myths, and the Chief of a border outpost in northern (present-day) Syria in the time of Hammurabi? Does this not seem farfetched? Is my gullibility showing? But note:

  • Myths often refer to important historic persons.
  • While chief of a border outpost seems unimportant compared with a King, Terru's actions -- defying the local population to serve Mari -- were memorable, especially since it led to the arrival of his son in Canaan.
  • The identities between proper names and events in the two stories are very strong.
  • Many of the details in Genesis are of relatively little interest, and mightn't have been written unless they were true..
  • We cannot know what now-lost documents the writers of Genesis had as reference. The treasure trove of letters from the time of Zimri-Lim strongly points to the existence of significant written records in "prehistory".
  • Even if this Terru=Terah identity is accepted, it doesn't follow that Terru and his son were the progenitors of Israel. The writers of Genesis might have had some motive to graft the Terru story onto their own myths.
  • Even if one dismisses the identity as false, the compilation of clues supporting the identity deserves applause!
 
Video unavailable
The uploader has not made this video available in your country

BUT I was able to download it via y2mate.nu.
I'm watching it now. I wonder how the missing texts it discusses relate to the missing texts I was planning to discuss in this thread!
 
BUT I was able to download it via y2mate.nu.
I'm watching it now. I wonder how the missing texts it discusses relate to the missing texts I was planning to discuss in this thread!

A quick skim confirms that this video has almost nothing to do with this thread. Almost all the focus is on the New Testament. A few Old Testament mentions relate to Adam and Eve.

Missing texts that ARE relevant to this thread include

* The Book of Jashar/Jasher -- a text which must have existed: It is referred to 2 or 3 times in the canonical Old Testament, e.g. in Joshua. Several alleged versions have turned up, including one from the 17th century that survives only in English, but I haven't found these versions on-line, nor any scholarly opinion that any of them is authentic.

* Texts deliberately expunged or revised by King Josiah, or later.

About the time the First Temple was built, the Israelites fractured into two nations: {Judah & Jerusalem} and everyone else. It was the non-Judah nation that retained the name Israel. Although called the "Northern Kingdom" (since its capital Samaria was to the North of Jerusalem) in fact that Kingdom extended South all the way to what is now Petra, in the heart of the Edomite lands. The people of Israel continued to practice the Israelite religion BUT they objected to the erection of a "House of God" in Jerusalem. For them the only House of God was his original House at Bethel. The Edomites were themselves a tribe of Israel, though they traced descent from Jacob's brother rather than one of his sons. A Hebrew altar and Hebrew texts have turned up in the heartland of the Edomites.

Since the oldest known versions of the Old Testament were written in the time of Judah's King Josiah or later, the "Jews" (residents of Judah) had plenty of opportunity to make the Edomites enemies of Jewry, rather than themselves an Israelite tribe. The location of Bethel is obfuscated in the O.T. In fact, it was near what is now the rock city of Petra: the same holy site where Moses received the Two Tablets, etc.
 
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