We could always go with what the dictionary says:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
And wonder about the motives of those who want to pretend some other definition applies.
-
Features
Socialism Helps Prevent Obesity
- Thread starter Trausti
- Start date
We could always go with what the dictionary says:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
And wonder about the motives of those who want to pretend some other definition applies.
Honestly dude, if this is the last thing you have to cling on to to support modern Conservatism, you're grasping for straws.
The argument makes no sense. None. Move on.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
Sounds good to me. Again, the reason why some on the right use the modern definition of socialism (ie: socialism is government programs!) is to belittle social programs. I don't know why some on the left use the same definition, other than maybe it's example of how the right is winning the argument....
Last edited:
Harry Bosch
Contributor
Now I'm confused! What is "modern conservatism"??
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
I noticed this a very long time ago, when talking about the European Safety Net economies.
If you use the word Socialism in order to say it is good, you are using the word Socialism correctly.
If you use the word Socialism in order to say it is bad, you are using the word Socialism incorrectly.
If you use Socialism to praise the Social Safety Net, then Socialism does mean Social Safety Net.
If you use Socialism to criticize the Social Safety Net, then Socialism only and ever means Collective Control of the Means of Production.
However, if you describe countries where the means of production ARE collectively owned, it isn't "Real" Socialism.
Is it small wonder that critics of Socialism can't keep up with the supporters of Socialism always moving the goalposts.
Still, Socialism is a very effective weight loss program.
"An"Com: I haven't eaten in three days.
AnCap: I admire your willpower.
If you use the word Socialism in order to say it is good, you are using the word Socialism correctly.
If you use the word Socialism in order to say it is bad, you are using the word Socialism incorrectly.
If you use Socialism to praise the Social Safety Net, then Socialism does mean Social Safety Net.
If you use Socialism to criticize the Social Safety Net, then Socialism only and ever means Collective Control of the Means of Production.
However, if you describe countries where the means of production ARE collectively owned, it isn't "Real" Socialism.
Is it small wonder that critics of Socialism can't keep up with the supporters of Socialism always moving the goalposts.
Still, Socialism is a very effective weight loss program.
"An"Com: I haven't eaten in three days.
AnCap: I admire your willpower.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
I agree with you! It would be a lot easier if people would just use words as they are defined.
LordKiran
Veteran Member
Well how else would you describe public control of amenities and services that would be considered private industries otherwise? (Firefighting, Law Enforcement, Education, ect.)
Strictly speaking, that is socialism, and it works pretty well too.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
Yes, even in the US we do have some (not many) aspects of the economy that can fairly be described as socialist. However, I'm not convinced that education and law enforcement are working pretty well.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
I would agree that these are socialistic examples. However, the key issue defining socialism and capitalism is who controls the means of production. While education, police, fire departments, and etc. are crucial components of a good society, they are not means of production. Means of production are inputs used to produce economic value. Examples are facilities, machines, tools, intellect, trade marks, and etc. When means of production are owned by a collective, it is socialism.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
Look at the size of the general's brain in comparison to dear leader's. someone has either shrunken the general or blown up the image of Kim.
Jimmy Higgins
Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2001
- Messages
- 50,562
- Basic Beliefs
- Calvinistic Atheist
One of the clear benefits of Socialism is that health issues which plague Capitalist countries - like obesity, diabetes, etc. - are mostly unheard of. In Venezuela, Socialism has reaped the wonders of the Maduro Diet.
In North Korea, the people are spared the health risks of meat.
And more righteously, the leaders of Socialist countries take upon themselves the risk of overeating so their people can be spared the burden.
Bring on the revolution!
Wasn't the means of production hoarded by a few people not the working class?
sharon45
Veteran Member
Again, government social programs.
untermensche
Contributor
Socialism is when your banks fail and the government lends them billions to stay afloat.
Huh? My argument is that the word "socialism" means what the dictionary says it means.
untermensche
Contributor
The dictionary in what propaganda system?
bilby
Fair dinkum thinkum
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2007
- Messages
- 40,379
- Gender
- He/Him
- Basic Beliefs
- Strong Atheist
The word 'Socialism' is just like the word 'Fanny' - it has HILARIOUSLY different meanings in US English vs the English spoken everywhere else in the world, leading to laughs galore.
When an American says that European socialists want the government to own and control the means of production, they are exactly as clueless as when the TV show 'The Nanny' was broadcast in the UK with a theme song that loudly emphasized the word 'Fanny' - the European English speakers were variously horrified, shocked, and amused by the unimaginable level of cultural insensitivity that was on display.
Merriam-Webster be damned; The Oxford English Dictionary defines Socialism thus:
It goes on to say:
Language describes concepts, and it does so in such a way that there are significant differences between the language as used in different regions. Concepts are not defined by the language used to describe them; Merriam-Webster cannot tell English socialists what they believe, nor that they are incorrect to describe themselves as 'socialist' while failing to comply with the way that word is used in America. So stick that up your fanny.
When an American says that European socialists want the government to own and control the means of production, they are exactly as clueless as when the TV show 'The Nanny' was broadcast in the UK with a theme song that loudly emphasized the word 'Fanny' - the European English speakers were variously horrified, shocked, and amused by the unimaginable level of cultural insensitivity that was on display.
Merriam-Webster be damned; The Oxford English Dictionary defines Socialism thus:
(my bold)
It goes on to say:
(again, my bold)
Language describes concepts, and it does so in such a way that there are significant differences between the language as used in different regions. Concepts are not defined by the language used to describe them; Merriam-Webster cannot tell English socialists what they believe, nor that they are incorrect to describe themselves as 'socialist' while failing to comply with the way that word is used in America. So stick that up your fanny.
Venezuela is what you typically get from an excess of socialism.
I do agree about North Korea.
I hate that metric--food insecurity doesn't mean there ever was a missed meal.
And note that the vast majority of it is parents spending money on their addictions instead of their children's food--and what isn't is almost always due to drugs or mental illness.
- - - Updated - - -
Europe has a good safety net, it has very little socialism.
Except for education these are all natural monopolies where meaningful competition isn't possible anyway, and even education approximates a natural monopoly. Note, also, that neither firefighting nor law enforcement is a means of production.
- - - Updated - - -
Objection: I would call education a means of production. Likewise the stuff she didn't list: Utilities.
barbos
Contributor
I remember cultural shock from seeing so many ridiculously fat people (including kids) when I came to US.
Nowadays there are fat kids in Russia too.
Nowadays there are fat kids in Russia too.
LordKiran
Veteran Member
"Means of production" Is an overly narrow descriptor when talking about modern concepts of socialism. Really there's no reason fire fighting couldn't be a competitive market.