Special Counsel John Durham Exonerates Donald Trump of “Russiagate”

[laughing dog]

But I am curious - what causes an inveterate Trump supporter to all of a sudden become concerned about corruption in government?

it is one thing for an elected official to be found corrupt. The people still have the to vote them out of office. But organized corruption with unelected government authorities is much more of a concern IMO.

Are you saying you knew Trump was and is corrupt and still support him?

Moreover, you seem to be conflating "corruption" with bad judgment or poor work.

 

[RVonse]

Link

Manafort had accepted a plea deal in the case in September 2018, admitting to money laundering, tax fraud and illegal foreign lobbying connected to his years working for Ukrainian politicians. Manafort also admitted lying to investigators and under oath before a grand jury about his contact with a Russian associate during the 2016 campaign, breaking the plea agreement.

Last week, he was sentenced in Virginia to 47 months in prison for financial fraud convictions. In D.C., Judge Amy Berman Jackson sentenced Manafort to 73 months, with 30 months to be served concurrently with his Virginia sentence. Manafort, who turns 70 next month, will serve seven-and-a-half years in prison minus the almost nine months he has already been incarcerated. Manafort also was ordered to pay $24.8 million in restitution and a $50,000 fine in the Virginia case. This was the first case from special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation to go to trial.

President Trump could pardon Manafort for his federal crimes, thus sparing him from serving both sentences. However, immediately after the sentence Wednesday, Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance, Jr., charged Manafort with 16 counts related to mortgage fraud, conspiracy and falsifying business records. The most serious charge carries a maximum penalty of 25 years in state prison and would not be eligible for a presidential pardon.

Wednesday, Manafort told the court “I am sorry for what I’ve done. Let me be very clear, I accept the responsibility for the acts that caused me to be here today,” he said.

Emphasis added.

If you are against an organized and corrupt federal government you are probably going to lose even if you are innocent. There are many innocent people out there who have accepted plea bargains and lied about their guilt in order to reduce their punishment.

Not saying that was the case here but where politics is involved its enough to make one wonder out loud.

 

[RVonse]

Moreover, you seem to be conflating "corruption" with bad judgment or poor work.

If it is poor work why aren't the individuals held accountable?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah, it is incredible, how the Trump campaign has a secret meeting with Kremlin related peeps, Trump did a number of things to Putin's benefit more so than the US's during his presidency, Trump's positions on Russia apparated from no where after Manafort gets into his campaign, Manafort gave Kremlin linked peeps campaign info, Trump campaign peeps were being noticed while we were monitoring foreign peeps, and Trump fires the head of the FBI after he refuses to stop looking into the very briefly Secretary of State.

What has not be concluded was that Trump openly colluded with the Kremlin. That proof has not come to light, though the is an interpreter for the Putin/Trump tete a tete that probably knows a lot more about the relationship than the rest of the world. What we do know is that Trump's actions were odd, his campaign people were in odd circles, and nations like Israel no longer trusted him with intel. While Trump has not been proven to have some level of collusion, he sure the fuck hasn't been exonerated!

So the conclusions are two general ideas.
1) Trump was so fucking stupid and manipulatable he couldn't be trusted to be President.
2) Trump conspired with a foreign nation for his own interests.

And as noted before, I'm uncomfortable with either one of these things.

Consider also adding:
3) The POTUS has no real control over organized entrenched corruption of the federal government.

Firstly, that isn't even related to Trump. Fora not Trump supporter, you do very little other than provide cover for Trump.

Secondly, Trump leaked an Israeli intel source, likely by accident, to the Russians. Then did it again on live television. Our allies became very weary of sharing intel at that point.

 

[RVonse]

Paul Craig Roberts has a long history of being incredibly wrong and a first class douche.

There are a lot of people who would agree with you. But there is one thing different about Roberts in that he does not accept corporate advertising on his site. His funding comes from donations from his readers and does not appear financed in any other way.

So he may be a loony tune with a Phd degree. But his articles are probably NOT being influenced by corporations and/or other special interests. Which gives him a lot of credibility that other journalists no longer have.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But I am curious - what causes an inveterate Trump supporter to all of a sudden become concerned about corruption in government?

it is one thing for an elected official to be found corrupt. The people still have the option to vote them out of office. But organized corruption with unelected government authorities is much more of a concern IMO.

Give me a fucking break! Trump tried to trade (illegally) $200 million in military aid to Ukraine for a fake announcement on a Ukrainian investigation on the Bidens. He called the Georgia Sec of State to change the election result (which would be used to change the results in other states). He incited a riot that got Americans killed in the US Capitol.

Why do you keep talking about corruption when you keep defending that monster.

 

[laughing dog]

Moreover, you seem to be conflating "corruption" with bad judgment or poor work.

If it is poor work why aren't the individuals held accountable?

How do you know they aren't? Peter Strzok who was involved with the Russian interference case was fired.

Contrast that with Mr. Trump who has yet to held accountable for his lies and acts that incited the insurrection on Jan. 6.

 

[laughing dog]

Paul Craig Roberts has a long history of being incredibly wrong and a first class douche.

There are a lot of people who would agree with you. But there is one thing different about Roberts in that he does not accept corporate advertising on his site. His funding comes from donations from his readers and does not appear financed in any other way.

So he may be a loony tune with a Phd degree. But his articles are probably NOT being influenced by corporations and/or other special interests. Which gives him a lot of credibility that other journalists no longer have.

I can let you have the Brooklyn Bridge for a song.

Psst - journalists do not accept corporate advertising either.

 

[RVonse]

Yeah, it is incredible, how the Trump campaign has a secret meeting with Kremlin related peeps, Trump did a number of things to Putin's benefit more so than the US's during his presidency, Trump's positions on Russia apparated from no where after Manafort gets into his campaign, Manafort gave Kremlin linked peeps campaign info, Trump campaign peeps were being noticed while we were monitoring foreign peeps, and Trump fires the head of the FBI after he refuses to stop looking into the very briefly Secretary of State.

What has not be concluded was that Trump openly colluded with the Kremlin. That proof has not come to light, though the is an interpreter for the Putin/Trump tete a tete that probably knows a lot more about the relationship than the rest of the world. What we do know is that Trump's actions were odd, his campaign people were in odd circles, and nations like Israel no longer trusted him with intel. While Trump has not been proven to have some level of collusion, he sure the fuck hasn't been exonerated!

So the conclusions are two general ideas.
1) Trump was so fucking stupid and manipulatable he couldn't be trusted to be President.
2) Trump conspired with a foreign nation for his own interests.

And as noted before, I'm uncomfortable with either one of these things.

Consider also adding:
3) The POTUS has no real control over organized entrenched corruption of the federal government.

Firstly, that isn't even related to Trump. Fora not Trump supporter, you do very little other than provide cover for Trump.

Secondly, Trump leaked an Israeli intel source, likely by accident, to the Russians. Then did it again on live television. Our allies became very weary of sharing intel at that point.

Is it possible in your world view to be concerned about DOJ corruption without concern for what Trump is or isn't? Furthermore, should not the rule of law be the same regardless of who occupies POTUS?

 

[Ford]

Moreover, you seem to be conflating "corruption" with bad judgment or poor work.

If it is poor work why aren't the individuals held accountable?

I've been asking this question for a couple of years online, and this seems to be a good time to bring it out again:

So...how's that whole "lock her up!" thing coming along?

Because a huge part of the Trump campaign was "holding them accountable." "Drain the swamp." And they sold t-shirts with "Hillary for Prison 2016" on them.

How's that going?

Because last time I checked, the "drain the swamp" administration didn't even try to pin so much as a parking ticket on "Crooked Hillary." To hear y'all tell it, she was going to be "brought to justice" post haste just after Donald took over.

Yet his administration - despite being in charge of an entire branch of the federal government for 4 years - didn't lift a finger to hold "Crooked Hillary" accountable.

Weird, huh?

 

[RVonse]

How do you know they aren't? Peter Strzok who was involved with the Russian interference case was fired.

Thank you for pointing that out, I did not know that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Consider also adding:
3) The POTUS has no real control over organized entrenched corruption of the federal government.

Firstly, that isn't even related to Trump. Fora not Trump supporter, you do very little other than provide cover for Trump.

Secondly, Trump leaked an Israeli intel source, likely by accident, to the Russians. Then did it again on live television. Our allies became very weary of sharing intel at that point.

Is it possible in your world view to be concerned about DOJ corruption without concern for what Trump is or isn't? Furthermore, should not the rule of law be the same regardless of who occupies POTUS?

Firstly, the guy Trump appointed launched the investigation after Trump fired FBI head Comey!

Secondly, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in your posts which proclaim to be about justice and freedom from corruption. It is impossible to take your motive seriously when you hand wave what Trump did (tried to steal a federal election, bribe Ukrainian leader, incited riot).

And let's not forget the lining of his pocket with campaign contributions being spent at his properties.

 

[RVonse]

Moreover, you seem to be conflating "corruption" with bad judgment or poor work.

If it is poor work why aren't the individuals held accountable?

I've been asking this question for a couple of years online, and this seems to be a good time to bring it out again:

So...how's that whole "lock her up!" thing coming along?

Because a huge part of the Trump campaign was "holding them accountable." "Drain the swamp." And they sold t-shirts with "Hillary for Prison 2016" on them.

How's that going?

Because last time I checked, the "drain the swamp" administration didn't even try to pin so much as a parking ticket on "Crooked Hillary." To hear y'all tell it, she was going to be "brought to justice" post haste just after Donald took over.

Yet his administration - despite being in charge of an entire branch of the federal government for 4 years - didn't lift a finger to hold "Crooked Hillary" accountable.

Weird, huh?

I agree with you and find it impossible to argue your point.

Furthermore, even more baffling to me is Trump claiming he would "drain the swamp". This same swamp of actors appears causing him all manner of personal legal trouble at this point. He did not even help himself.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I agree with you and find it impossible to argue your point.

Furthermore, even more baffling to me is Trump claiming he would "drain the swamp". This same swamp of actors appears causing him all manner of personal legal trouble at this point. He did not even help himself.

He lied. He lies a lot. You fell for it. His supporters gave him hundreds of millions over the stop the steal... which went to the GOP coffers, his coffers, and almost nothing to the legal fund to prevent the steal. He isn't allowed to run a charity anymore because he used it to pay legal fees and pictures of himself. Yet, you still seem to think, he is the victim in all of your passive aggressive nature.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Link

Manafort had accepted a plea deal in the case in September 2018, admitting to money laundering, tax fraud and illegal foreign lobbying connected to his years working for Ukrainian politicians. Manafort also admitted lying to investigators and under oath before a grand jury about his contact with a Russian associate during the 2016 campaign, breaking the plea agreement.

Last week, he was sentenced in Virginia to 47 months in prison for financial fraud convictions. In D.C., Judge Amy Berman Jackson sentenced Manafort to 73 months, with 30 months to be served concurrently with his Virginia sentence. Manafort, who turns 70 next month, will serve seven-and-a-half years in prison minus the almost nine months he has already been incarcerated. Manafort also was ordered to pay $24.8 million in restitution and a $50,000 fine in the Virginia case. This was the first case from special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation to go to trial.

President Trump could pardon Manafort for his federal crimes, thus sparing him from serving both sentences. However, immediately after the sentence Wednesday, Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance, Jr., charged Manafort with 16 counts related to mortgage fraud, conspiracy and falsifying business records. The most serious charge carries a maximum penalty of 25 years in state prison and would not be eligible for a presidential pardon.

Wednesday, Manafort told the court “I am sorry for what I’ve done. Let me be very clear, I accept the responsibility for the acts that caused me to be here today,” he said.

Emphasis added.

If you are against an organized and corrupt federal government you are probably going to lose even if you are innocent. There are many innocent people out there who have accepted plea bargains and lied about their guilt in order to reduce their punishment.

Not saying that was the case here but where politics is involved its enough to make one wonder out loud.

Your "what-I'm-just-thinking-out-loud" argument has a giant gaping hole in it. For one, the plea agreement was BEFORE they found out Manafort lied about his contact with a Russian deep state intel agent. So, after they found out, they nullified the plea agreement because he had lied to them under oath when he said he would cooperate. His statement where he conceded the whole thing was his fault came after the voided plea agreement. So the voided plea agreement did not cause him to (allegedly) lie to everyone that he was sorry. Now you could try to make some other argument, like that the criminal justice system might end up being lenient on Manafort in other ways because he said he was sorry and so maybe the sorry was inauthentic. Sure, okay, but that in no way exonerates Manafort because there was evidence of his contact with the Russian deep state intel agent. You can't just make the evidence go away by calling Manafort a liar. I mean, as you can see, calling him a liar doesn't help your case at all.

 

[Ford]

Moreover, you seem to be conflating "corruption" with bad judgment or poor work.

If it is poor work why aren't the individuals held accountable?

I've been asking this question for a couple of years online, and this seems to be a good time to bring it out again:

So...how's that whole "lock her up!" thing coming along?

Because a huge part of the Trump campaign was "holding them accountable." "Drain the swamp." And they sold t-shirts with "Hillary for Prison 2016" on them.

How's that going?

Because last time I checked, the "drain the swamp" administration didn't even try to pin so much as a parking ticket on "Crooked Hillary." To hear y'all tell it, she was going to be "brought to justice" post haste just after Donald took over.

Yet his administration - despite being in charge of an entire branch of the federal government for 4 years - didn't lift a finger to hold "Crooked Hillary" accountable.

Weird, huh?

I agree with you and find it impossible to argue your point.

Furthermore, even more baffling to me is Trump claiming he would "drain the swamp". This same swamp of actors appears causing him all manner of personal legal trouble at this point. He did not even help himself.

It's not baffling to me at all. I ask the "how's that lock her up thing coming along" question of Trump supporters then, Trump supporters now, and folks who continue to defend him. To date, none of the "true believers" (or even apologists) can speak the truth out loud:

You got suckered. Taken in. Sold a bill of goods. Millions of people still think if given the chance, Fragilego Mussolini would get right back in there and "drain the swamp" for good. Because admitting you got swindled is hard. So instead (to echo what Jimmy said above), you try to paint Trump as the real victim here. He's not. The real victims are the people who - after 4 years of his bullshit - still believe he's a crusader for busting up corruption in Washington DC. He never was. Trump looked at the White House (or more importantly, running for the Presidency) as a grift. A way to enrich himself at the cost of the American people. Fixing government was the furthest thing from his mind, but damn if that doesn't make a good marketing pitch.

Trump's "personal legal trouble at this point" is not the fault of the US government, or the FBI, or the DOJ, or "the swamp." It's entirely his own fault, because he's corrupt as fuck. For the first time in his life he took a job where the level of scrutiny is intense enough to age everyone who has held the office, and that has exposed him for the fraud that he's always been. It's sad that so many people still see him as anything but a con man.

 

[Juvenal]

No real American believes one word about the failed impeachment charges, the false narrative “insurrection” charges, the Documentgate charges,” the false narrative NY prosecution charges, or the false rape charge." excerpts from: https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/20...durham-exonerates-donald-trump-of-russiagate/

So there are a lot of Trump haters out there and I get that. At this point I would not favor him being a leading candidate myself.

But what I still don't get is how even the most serious Trump hater can see this stuff and still believe our government is clean? Because when it comes to freedom and democracy, the means can not justify the ends. Simply because if the DOJ is profoundly this corrupt, rule of law no longer matters and it is only a matter of time that your own ox will be getting gored.

Who gave this guy the authority to declare who is or isn't a "real American"?

That's a rhetorical question.

And fascism, by definition.

You don't have to hate Trump to conclude Durham's appointment was in retaliation against the FBI for the Russia investigation. Trump admitted to firing Comey because of the Russia investigation, engaged in personal attacks against individual FBI agents involved in the investigation, and went on to sic the IRS against both Comey and his successor.

Four years later, Durham has nothing to show for his time.

He scored one plea deal from a referral — that came from IG Horowitz, not anything Durham investigated — that resulted in probation with community service in lieu of jail time. And two failed prosecutions, both of which resulted in unanimous acquittals from the juries. In legal terms, that's called a double face plant.

You can relax now on the corruption front. Barr is gone, Garland is in, and the DoJ is back inside the reservation.

 

[RVonse]

You got suckered. Taken in. Sold a bill of goods. Millions of people still think if given the chance, Fragilego Mussolini would get right back in there and "drain the swamp" for good. Because admitting you got swindled is hard. So instead (to echo what Jimmy said above), you try to paint Trump as the real victim here. He's not.

It is hard to admit you have been swindled no argument. But (for me at least) its more about fear than it is ego. Because if they can do it to a post POTUS, they can do it to me 100x better. I don't want to live in country where you are in constant fear they will lock you up and throw away the key if you happened to offend the wrong person working for the federal government.

 

[RVonse]

Trump's "personal legal trouble at this point" is not the fault of the US government, or the FBI, or the DOJ, or "the swamp." It's entirely his own fault, because he's corrupt as fuck. For the first time in his life he took a job where the level of scrutiny is intense enough to age everyone who has held the office, and that has exposed him for the fraud that he's always been. It's sad that so many people still see him as anything but a con man.

What you said sounds reasonable and I sincerely hope you are right and I was wrong.

 

[TomC]

You got suckered. Taken in. Sold a bill of goods. Millions of people still think if given the chance, Fragilego Mussolini would get right back in there and "drain the swamp" for good. Because admitting you got swindled is hard. So instead (to echo what Jimmy said above), you try to paint Trump as the real victim here. He's not.

It is hard to admit you have been swindled no argument. But (for me at least) its more about fear than it is ego. Because if they can do it to a post POTUS, they can do it to me 100x better. I don't want to live in country where you are in constant fear they will lock you up and throw away the key if you happened to offend the wrong person working for the federal government.

Do what to you?

Credibly accuse you of sexual assault?
Tax and campaign funding fraud?
Selling state secrets to enemy governments?
Inciting election fraud and violent insurrection?

I doubt very much that anyone could credibly accuse you of any such heinous behavior. Because you're not as corrupt as Trump. You and I disagree about lots of things, but no, I don't think you're nearly the disaster of the USA that Trump is.
Tom