Spiritually dead...

[Keith&Co.]

So, a relative had informed me that the best reason to reject Same Sex Marriage is that children raised in 'a gay household' are dead, spiritually.

Now, Uncle Dave and I were both alive back in the 70's, when all those guys with wives and kids started coming out of the closet. They stopped living the lie, and people had to face uncomfortable facts.

So I have to wonder, if one or both of your parents are gay, but living a lie, are those kids spiritually dead?

Dave says no, because if they THOUGHT their parents were straight, then they grew up knowing right from wrong.

Except I believe that many places in the bible say that lies, lying lips, being a liar, all that crap is quite the condemning sin. So, CAN lying parents raise kids biblical kids? Or would those kids be spiritually dead, too, because they were brought up to value lip service to social expectations over truth, honesty, and all that?

The concept interests me, but Dave has stopped replying to my emails...

 

[couch_sloth]

I wonder what he means by spiritually dead? e.g. Being without a soul? Not being able to accept the one true religion? Predestined to burn forever in the lake of fire? Some sort of zombie?

 

[Keith&Co.]

I wonder what he means by spiritually dead? e.g. Being without a soul? Not being able to accept the one true religion? Predestined to burn forever in the lake of fire? Some sort of zombie?

I have never understood that. I have come to accept that many of those who use the term do not understand it either, as they cannot explain it. They heard it somewhere, did not question the claim (exactly because it supports their preferred conclusion), and merely parrot it where it seems appropriate.

Much like a flat earther claims visual sightings of 'sunrise' are optical illusions without being able to explain the mechanics,
Or how Trumpettes say tariffs on Mexican goods will pay for the wall, not understanding that Americans pay those tariffs, not Mexicans.

 

[steve_bank]

I believe we have a spirit and soul, but nothing supernatural. One can be spiritually dead for a number of reasons. And one can have a 'born again' experience not related to religion.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Atheists aren't spiritually dead. Even though we accept that he's a fictional character, we still accept Superman into our hearts and use him as an inspiration of how to live our lives.

 

[southernhybrid]

The term spiritual probably has hundreds of different meanings depending on why you ask. Regardless, it's sad that your uncle feels the way he does. Jesus never even mentioned homosexuality and he had friends who were prostitutes. Why are people like your uncle so judgmental, when their Jesus said only god should judge?

Plus, there are lots of gay Christians. We used to have a member here, ( Rev. Joshua ) who was the pastor of a large Baptist church in Atlanta where half of the congregation was gay. He and his wife met a small group of us once for a social at the Atlanta Botanical Gardens. I think he'd be ashamed of any Christian who had such negative feelings toward gay folks. Naturally, he was a liberal Baptist and not one of the crazy ones like the ones in my childhood church.

Your uncle sounds very narrow minded, so I doubt there is anything you could say to convince him that he's wrong.

 

[Atheos]

I used to believe that spiritual death was separation from god. It's the justification nearly everyone uses to explain how Adam and Eve "died" in the day they ate of the forbidden fruit because they sure as hell didn't die physically that day according to the myth.

It's not difficult to understand how certain believers might consider gay people to be spiritually dead, considering that some bible passages condemn homosexuality and even calls for the death penalty for it (Lev 20:13). I don't quite understand how that extends to the children. Arguing that the kids "thought" their parent(s) were straight doesn't hold water. First, it implies that "Two wrongs make a right" by adding lying + homosexuality to get the desired outcome. Also it doesn't address how long the children have to believe the lie before they're somehow inoculated. If dad comes out when they're 3 are they doomed but if he'd just wait until they're 8 they'd be fine? And it allows no provision for the demonstrable fact that people can learn new things pretty much throughout their life.

It's an indefensible position at best and certainly an offensive one to me personally. And I'm truly not gay at all but I hope to Santa Claus that if I were I wouldn't be ashamed of it.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I guess I am spiritually dead, as I rent out my soul regularly, on Craig's List. It's currently being used by some born again (and literally holier-than-thou) lady in Albuquerque. Before her, I rented it out to a storefront pastor in Detroit, who let the rock cocaine crowd use it, and I had to have it hosed out & Febreezed. Word to the wise...

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Somewhere in one of the gospel stories Jesus says "Let the dead bury their dead." He's saying that if you have the wrong spirit you're dead. Personally I wouldn't know a dead ghost from a live one.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It's just, the Books makes it clear, one becomes alive when the breath, the spirit, enters the body. It's just a lump of complexly-arranged clay until God's breath changes it to a living being, one with spirit. So spiritually dead would require puncturing the bag and letting all the breath out. I mean, biblically.

Jesus' comment on The Dead sounds more like 'they're dead to me,' like Grandpa used to do when someone took the last beer. More judgmental than theological.

 

[Politesse]

And I'm truly not gay at all but I hope to Santa Claus that if I were I wouldn't be ashamed of it.

It's hard not to feel that way a little, when so many voices are telling you what a disappointment if not what a horror you are...

 

[rousseau]

And I'm truly not gay at all but I hope to Santa Claus that if I were I wouldn't be ashamed of it.

It's hard not to feel that way a little, when so many voices are telling you what a disappointment if not what a horror you are...

I must be too obtuse, because when someone expresses a ridiculous opinion like that I usually just assume they're an ignorant moron and completely disregard them.

To me the hard part would be the social isolation, but then do you really want to associate with homophobic people anyway?

 

[Politesse]

And I'm truly not gay at all but I hope to Santa Claus that if I were I wouldn't be ashamed of it.

It's hard not to feel that way a little, when so many voices are telling you what a disappointment if not what a horror you are...

I must be too obtuse, because when someone expresses a ridiculous opinion like that I usually just assume they're an ignorant moron and completely disregard them.

To me the hard part would be the social isolation, but then do you really want to associate with homophobic people anyway?

It's the difference between trying to ignore a drop of moisture on your head, and trying to ignore Chinese water torture.

And homophobes aren't the only ones who stress heteronormativity, that would indeed make things easier.

 

[rousseau]

I must be too obtuse, because when someone expresses a ridiculous opinion like that I usually just assume they're an ignorant moron and completely disregard them.

To me the hard part would be the social isolation, but then do you really want to associate with homophobic people anyway?

It's the difference between trying to ignore a drop of moisture on your head, and trying to ignore Chinese water torture.

And homophobes aren't the only ones who stress heteronormativity, that would indeed make things easier.

That's fair. Guess this is why most of the openly gay people I know have moved into gay communities in cities, makes it easier all around.

 

[Atheos]

Yes there is still a lot of social stigma even in 2019 about this subject (being gay), especially as one gets out of the more urban areas. I live in a medium-sized urban area myself and know a surprisingly large number of gay people who appear quite comfortable in their skin now. What I doubtless don't know is the number of closeted ones with whom I interact on a daily basis.

In a way I suppose that's not a lot different from the fact that I am a non-believer living in an ocean of churchgoing people. I'm not ashamed of my skepticism but I'm not "out there" about it either. Many of my co-workers and acquaintances have no clue. But at the same time the way I look at it is it's none of their business. I'm not trying to hide it but I'm not evangelically atheist either. It's just part of who I am.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I must be too obtuse, because when someone expresses a ridiculous opinion like that I usually just assume they're an ignorant moron and completely disregard them.

I'm not gay, but I can guess that the problem is like being in an interracial marriage.
The real issue is NOT the strident, intolerant, and stupid. Those you can ignore.

But the expressions run the entire spectrum, from the hate, to the uncomfortable to the base assumptions. Relatively normal people whose opinions you respect suddenly show up with this weird blind spot. "Oh, it's okay for you, we're just sad about what you're doing to the children."
Or someone who can never be sure if her idea of Hell comes from the Bible or The Inferno suddenly spouts every scripture reference uses to promote racial purity.
Or a high school friend observes, "I always thought you were weird liking Uhura over Rand, now I see why."

It's not even how they react, as much as the fact that everywhere you go, people seem to react. How suddenly a choice you made is the most incredible thing about you, and people HAVE to notice.

And if you go into it with, you think, eyes wide open, prepared to deal with the foaming-at-the-mouth faithful, then find it's the surprise of the more subtle reactions that's wearing...

 

[steve_bank]

It's just, the Books makes it clear, one becomes alive when the breath, the spirit, enters the body. It's just a lump of complexly-arranged clay until God's breath changes it to a living being, one with spirit. So spiritually dead would require puncturing the bag and letting all the breath out. I mean, biblically.

Jesus' comment on The Dead sounds more like 'they're dead to me,' like Grandpa used to do when someone took the last beer. More judgmental than theological.

Nice, god's creation as metaphor which is how I take the creation myths. The fall of Adam and Eve was about gaining knowledge and self awareness, Knowledge and awareness brings the potential for sin and self corruption.

Depicting spiritual life and death is for literature and poetry. Spiritual death in some ways is like a dead battery. You loose your awareness of self and wholeness. You become completely controlled by stimulus. Go from video games to sex to alcohol and drugs in a continuous loop with no sense of self and control. That for me that is what biblical sin and corruption means.

That is pretty much what I got out of Buddhism.

 

[steve_bank]

When I was a kid in the 50s calling somebody fag or queer was an insult and could ne fighting words. I doubt any of us understood what it meant, it was in the culture. In the early 80s you would hear it on the job. B the last decade at least where I worked it was gone. In part to govt regulations in the workplace and potential for suits. In [art a cultural shift./ It is no longer acceptable to be demeaning to any group in the workplace.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Dave has told many other family members that he is praying for me.
He prays that God commands the Holy Spirit to open my heart to Jesus, to understand the risks run by the homosexuals.

So, Dave is throwing a ghost at me to make his point. That sounds like a translation from some other culture's idiom, you know what I mean?

I imagine an older guy, probably British, explaining to the Camera: "And in Flyspeckistan, they would say such an argument is 'throwing ghosts' at you."

Meh.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It is no longer acceptable to be demeaning to any group in the workplace.

Quite the shift. In the old days, we created groups to demean, as a means of bonding the rest of us together. Usually experienced vs. newbies, which made it disappointing when the newbs became experienced but could no longer inflict their suffering on a new generation of newbs...

Seriously, quite a few of my peers were unable to handle shifts in mandatory tolerance, exactly because they'd been victimized and the only thing that got them through was the hope to some day pass that along to the next guys. I was almost giddy that I was not going to be expected to treat others that way.

I wonder if that's a form spiritual death? Inability to shake off upbringing?

Dave DOES seem convinced that people brought up to respect gays and lesbians as people will never be reconditioned to hate them as perverts like the all-loving God requires...