• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

States Can Ban Assault Weapons, SCOTUS Rules.

I have read that it will be hard to change because pro-gun people are one issue voters and anti-gun people don't care as much about the issue. True?
There is a segment of gun owners that are paranoid political fucks. Remember the Bundy Ranch standoff? A bunch of idiot cowboys out there to hold back the FBI, and almost going to war within their own ranks. Like politics in general, the NRA has been spoon feeding propaganda to these people, telling them the danger they are in. They don't view any amendment as important, but the 2nd, because allegedly, that protects the others.

And if the US began a voluntary turnover of weapons, these people would lose their shit, certain the seizing comes any moment.
 
Convince Americans that guns should carry liability issues just as private swimming pools and cars do. If you leave your AR-15 on the kitchen table overnight, and your buddy who is sleeping over, takes in the morning cuz he got the itch to shoot up a mall, you become financially fucked.

That isn't already the case?

No. W. Bush and the GOP passed the PLCAA which makes it essentially impossible for gun makers, dealers, or owners to be held at all liable for their guns being used by others in crimes, no matter how recklessly unsecured the gun was or how unsafely designed, etc..

In fact, in many US states you can actually knowingly give your gun to a convicted felon who then uses it in a crime and not suffer any penalty at all, or at worst get a minor fee for a misdemeanor.
Fine, be all factual and humorless ;) Good summary!

FWIW, my example of an AR-15 was an actual event in my area from a few years ago...
 
Canada is beholden to big breast

Guilty as charged.

and the USA to big gun lobby. The NRA used to be about increasing markmenship among Americans. Then in the 70s, it became a political gun lobby. And the last decade, it became shameless. The policies the NRA have fought for in the 70s and 80s have led to several massacres that we see pop up several times a year it seems now.

I have read that it will be hard to change because pro-gun people are one issue voters and anti-gun people don't care as much about the issue. True?

I think that's a factor, but of course it would be hard to quantify. There has never been an effort to confiscate guns here. Any such effort would not go well (someone mentioned Ruby Ridge), especially in the current social climate that has been carefully cultivated by the NRA and FFvC. Hopefully it will chill off to a point where Joe Sixpack won't go off his rocker when someone proposes some reasonable regulation - but I don't expect that to happen until and unless the Dems re-take Congress, Cheato is impeached and removed, and a couple of years pass to let the alt-right snowflakes calm down about it.
 
It would be interesting as an outside observer who lives in a country with gun control laws to see exactly what would happen if somebody like say Trump (rather than a Democrat) actually said they are coming for the guns and demanded they all be turned in. Would there be a civil war?
 
It would be interesting as an outside observer who lives in a country with gun control laws to see exactly what would happen if somebody like say Trump (rather than a Democrat) actually said they are coming for the guns and demanded they all be turned in. Would there be a civil war?
Heck, if Trump said it, these fools would probably drop them off in person at the White House.
 
Correction: The Supreme Court didn't rule anything. They simply refused to take the case.
 
It would be interesting as an outside observer who lives in a country with gun control laws to see exactly what would happen if somebody like say Trump (rather than a Democrat) actually said they are coming for the guns and demanded they all be turned in. Would there be a civil war?
Why would there be a civil war? There'd be a suit filed, and some federal judge would issue an injunction blocking enforcement of Trump's order, and there'd be a lot of hot air passed before the S.C. upheld the appellate court that ruled in gun owners' favor. Pretty much the same as with Trump's dumb-ass order to ban people of certain nationalities from entering the country. If Presidents or Congresses ever want to come for people's guns, they're going to need a constitutional amendment. Good luck getting 3/4 of the states to agree to that.
 
How strong is the push within the Democratic party for bans on guns altogether? Only police and the military should really have guns. I don't feel safe when I travel to the USA and see people openly carrying guns. I'm still amazed that this is legal in some of your states.

People like Ben Shapiro argue that we need a right to guns because they keep us safe, and when that argument fails, they then pivot to the argument that we need guns to protect us from government tyrany.

The first point fails on the face of it, but what of the second argument. It seems a little daft to me to think that a hand gun in the hands of the populace is going to defeat the US army. For that you would indeed need assualt weapons, and even tanks and maybe even nukes, no? So why don't the gun advocates argue for the right to own a RPG launcher, tank, and nuke?

The second point renders the 2nd Amendment a vestigial element at best. Guns as a means to protect us from "Teh Guvment" went out of fashion and feasibility the moment we formed a standing army. We did this because sometime during 1812 we found out that militia armies are fucking awful.

The militias were required to field themselves and their own gear because standardized quality equipment that keeps people alive? EH! Who needs it?!

The militias appointed officers based on popularity, because you wouldn't want officer-ship determined by something as stupid and pointless as "Merit" right?

The militias were little more than an undisciplined mob that routinely fired on themselves because who needs properly trained and drilled soldiers who won't run just because they're on the receiving end of cannon fire or a cavalry charge?
 
Correction: The Supreme Court didn't rule anything. They simply refused to take the case.

Which means they agreed with the lower court ruling.
Sort of. It mostly means the SCOTUS was too chicken shit to take up this political hot potatoe. ;)

It leaves the ruling in place, but by denying cert and not taking the case, it leaves it open to challenge later on down the road without actually setting any precedent. Subtle difference, but it can sometimes be quite significant later.
 
How strong is the push within the Democratic party for bans on guns altogether? Only police and the military should really have guns. I don't feel safe when I travel to the USA and see people openly carrying guns. I'm still amazed that this is legal in some of your states.

People like Ben Shapiro argue that we need a right to guns because they keep us safe, and when that argument fails, they then pivot to the argument that we need guns to protect us from government tyrany.

The first point fails on the face of it, but what of the second argument. It seems a little daft to me to think that a hand gun in the hands of the populace is going to defeat the US army. For that you would indeed need assualt weapons, and even tanks and maybe even nukes, no? So why don't the gun advocates argue for the right to own a RPG launcher, tank, and nuke?

The second point renders the 2nd Amendment a vestigial element at best. Guns as a means to protect us from "Teh Guvment" went out of fashion and feasibility the moment we formed a standing army. We did this because sometime during 1812 we found out that militia armies are fucking awful.

The militias were required to field themselves and their own gear because standardized quality equipment that keeps people alive? EH! Who needs it?!

The militias appointed officers based on popularity, because you wouldn't want officer-ship determined by something as stupid and pointless as "Merit" right?

The militias were little more than an undisciplined mob that routinely fired on themselves because who needs properly trained and drilled soldiers who won't run just because they're on the receiving end of cannon fire or a cavalry charge?

I copied the following from a friend of a friend on Facebook, but I don't have his name immediately on hand. Either way, neither I nor my friend wrote it, though we each shared it:
The Second Amendment needs to go. It serves no purpose in society except to make us more prone to violence, to see violence as a reasonable solution to any problem faced by anyone, and there is absolutely no actual, rational justification for its continued existence, whatsoever. This is not hyperbole — all arguments regarding about maintaining gun rights are massively and insanely flawed, and they stem entirely from the premise of the 2nd amendment itself. What do I mean? Let’s start.
“A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Okay, that’s actually a lot, and none of it actually makes sense, at all. Let’s start with the last part: “The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.” This statement is pure and utter nonsense, and I know no one who actually, genuinely, believes this is a reasonable statement, and I include in this list every NRA member I know. Why do I say this? Very simply, because chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear arms are just that — arms, as are swords, daggers, tasers, truncheons, collapsible batons, switchblades, IEDs, suicide vests, and whatever nasty way I can come up with to harm someone in the future that we just haven’t built yet. However, I have yet to meet someone who will outright state that it is absolutely reasonable, and not at all insane, to allow “the people: to maintain weaponized VX, sarin, and anthrax in their basements, let alone things like kiloton nuclear devices, dirty bombs and other nastiness that man can conceive. If we allow for their outright ban among the civilian population, then we are agreeing that it is absolutely justifiable, even with the 2nd amendment in effect, to restrict and ban the ownership of weapons based solely on their lethality and ease of use against a mass population. Once we have done that, we have already agreed that the fundamental premise behind banning all semiautomatic firearms with detachable magazines is not only sound, but reasonable and desirable, and thus the 2nd amendment serves no purpose in the discussion of gun control as a matter of public policy.
“But wait!” you implore desperately, “The purpose of the amendment is to prevent a tyrannical government from abusing the people!” To which I respond, “No, it isn’t. It has never been used as such, it was not intended as such, the militia is defined under the Constitution to be under authority of the government, actual private militias have been used more to terrorize people out of actual protected rights, and militias that have been formed to protect actually oppressed people are widely hated and despised among the people who claim to love the 2nd amendment. What’s more, the notion that this makes any sort of inherent sense, or is at all coherent, is laughable, and ensconces absolutely destructive tendencies within the population, and gives the people the tools to create an oppressive regime far more than it does to protect us from such a thing.” That’s a lot to unpack, so I’ll begin with the first part: it’s not there to protect us from tyranny at all.
The constitution says this about the militia: “To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;” That’s right, the US constitution explicitly puts control of the militias, alleged to protect us from a tyrannical congress under the control and direction of Congress itself. To even suggest that militias described by the constitution then, exist to protect us from Congress borders on patent dishonesty, just from the fact of the Constitution itself. To continue on this, the militia has been called up by no less a person than George Washington himself to put down a rebellion against perceived tyranny. We can go a tad further, and see the Civil War play out, and the sordid history of militias there. Even leading up to it, militias flooded border areas voting on the right to own slaves, using violence and the threat thereof to alter the political discourse. Murder and intimidation were absolutely acceptable tools in Bleeding Kansas, and rather than seeing this as a forerunner to the violent intimidation and private armies of the early 20th century fascist movements, we kind of celebrate this — violent struggle as an inherent, and almost desirable, part of political discourse, and an acceptable means of pushing the political agenda.
Past the Civil War, we see the formation of white militias to oppress and terrorize the black population, and keep them from exercising their rights. The militia wasn’t protecting anyone — it was a non-governmental form of oppression, and when the government decided to actively oppress the population, the militia aided and abetted the government. Militias were part of the problem. Going into the 20th century, we see the formation of a militia to protect an oppressed and marginalized people. However, the Black Panther Party was called a gang of criminals and worse, and is not at all fondly remembered by any gun aficionado that I have spoke with. Maybe they do exist, but I have yet to see significant evidence of actual support of militias that have actually supported actually oppressed people.
Continuing on from here, populaces overturning governments on revolt don’t have a track record to be envied. In the last 200 or so years, we can look at the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Chinese Civil War, the “fun” of the Arab Spring, the Taliban, Iran, Iraq… I can go on. Violent revolt doesn’t end well, because it doesn’t happen in an organized fashion very often. The US looks at its very unusual history, and assumes that it is the norm, rather than the obvious outlier that it is.
But let’s go on, because of course I must. If we still insist that militias are there to protect us from oppression, we have to ask: who gets to decide what constitutes oppression? We can’t let the government make that decision; they’re the alleged oppressors here, so the courts are out here. We can’t let the non-oppressed people make that decision, since they’re not the ones doing the oppressing (just look at the struggles that everyone who is not a straight white male has had to go through to get to where they are, and the resistance they’ve been met with the whole way). That leaves the people who claim oppression. But that’s not a good metric for allowing for violent upheaval, because it allows for a religious minority to decide that their lack of theocratic control over the government constitutes oppression, and gives them the right to engage in a violent struggle for control.
So, going back to the unrestricted right to bear arms (which does not actually exist within the 2nd amendment), when combined with a religious sect seeking theocracy, we’d be protecting the right for a crazy religious cult to engage in a campaign of terrorism using chemical weapons against a recalcitrant civilian population in order to secure theocratic control over the government. That’s ridiculous, but it’s absolutely in line with everything that gun fetishists insist the 2nd amendment is about when they rail against any sort of gun control legislation — shall not infringe and protect from tyranny.
The 2nd amendment does absolutely nothing to protect us from tyranny (and has indeed been part of tyranny), no one actually is unwilling to restrict the rights to any sort of arms that aren’t firearms (I don’t get to carry a small sword in public, but firearms are apparently okay), and it doesn’t serve any purpose in public discourse but to obstruct and prevent any sort of conversation from happening in regards to one category of arms. It’s time for it to go.
It's a longer exposition of the points you made, LordKiran.
 
Correction: The Supreme Court didn't rule anything. They simply refused to take the case.

Which means they agreed with the lower court ruling.
Sort of. It mostly means the SCOTUS was too chicken shit to take up this political hot potatoe. ;)

It leaves the ruling in place, but by denying cert and not taking the case, it leaves it open to challenge later on down the road without actually setting any precedent. Subtle difference, but it can sometimes be quite significant later.

Right. Thanks for the explanation.
 
It leaves the ruling in place, but by denying cert and not taking the case, it leaves it open to challenge later on down the road without actually setting any precedent. Subtle difference, but it can sometimes be quite significant later.

Right. Thanks for the explanation.
But there's already a precedent. The lower court was simply applying the principles laid out in Heller.
 
It leaves the ruling in place, but by denying cert and not taking the case, it leaves it open to challenge later on down the road without actually setting any precedent. Subtle difference, but it can sometimes be quite significant later.

Right. Thanks for the explanation.
But there's already a precedent. The lower court was simply applying the principles laid out in Heller.
Of course Heller itself ignored about 100 years of precedence.
 
It’s funny how they call liberals “sensitive snowflakes,” but we’re not the ones saying we need to run around with a fucking gun every day to fight off the boogey-man.

Indeed, "snowflake" is the wrong word in this instance. "Strawman" fits much better.
And don't forget Snowman and Strawflake.
 
Right. Thanks for the explanation.
But there's already a precedent. The lower court was simply applying the principles laid out in Heller.
Of course Heller itself ignored about 100 years of precedence.
This wasn't just the Supreme Court -- Heller was upholding the decision of the appellate court. As far as I can see, there is no earlier SC decision Heller conflicts with. Which precedents do you have in mind? Are you talking about district court rulings?
 
US v Miller (1939)

It holds the test of whether a firearm (specifically in this case a sawed off shotgun) has an applicable purpose for a militia and did not consider the idea that individuals had a right to a gun just because. The US these days has a standing army these days, and militias are no longer applicable.
 
Back
Top Bottom