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Sweden, Finland, and Ukraine joining NATO?

Despite the uncritical support for Putin and Russia from some quarters (NATO attacking Russia in Georgia, seriously?) NATO should tread very carefully. The Russians are sensitive in a way we in the west cannot conceive. Watching Putin's question and answer session after his state of the nation address should disabuse anyone of the notion that Russians think or behave in a way that we consider rational.

Historic precedents abound. Had Stalin not invaded Poland with Hitler then eastern Poland would have been a buffer between the two dictatorships. I doubt it would have done anything to prevent Hitler eventually attacking the Soviet Union but the Nazis having to cross hundred of miles of Poland may have given Stalin the time to shake himself out of his panic earlier.

NATO should therefore avoid permitting border states to join. This would create a buffer to soothe Russian nationalism. Unfortunate for the Ukraine and similar nations because Russia will inevitably bully them if not outright absorb them on the most spurious grounds but, frankly, anything east of Germany isn't worth the hassle.

Similarly, driving the Russian economy into the ground for political spite is just a re-hash of the allies behaviour towards the German Weimar Republic in sucking the economy dry. Creating economic pressure creates social unrest and from that unrest will arise extremism.

While I have no doubt that economic sanctions and the like are fueling Russian nationalism; I also have little doubt that *not* doing anything would be just as bad. There have to be consequences to Russia's behavior; if there aren't it will just keep doing the same thing over and over because it knows it can get away with it. Letting it get away with stealing territory from its neighbors would send a horrible message to Russia and other countries with similar ambitions.

And it's about more than that. The west has long talked about international law, order, equality, and all these fine things we claim to stand for. If, when it looks like things might get tough if we commit to those things, we falter; as you're suggesting by saying crap like "anything east of Germany isn't worth the hassle"', then we undermine our own stated reasons for existing. There's a lot of places east of Germany that are well worth the 'hassle' just on objective grounds, but even if they weren't; protecting them is just the right thing to do. We can't go around pushing our will on the rest of the world claiming that it's for the greater good, and then tell countries to fuck off when they ask for our help because they're not; in your opinion; worth the hassle.
 
YOU might consider Ukraine worth the sacrifice of someone else's sons. I don't.

The Russians don't get "messages" so there's no point in sending them. Don't believe me? Watch Moldova. You're about to see exactly the same tactics deployed there by the Russians as they used in Ukraine despite the "message" of sanctions.
 
YOU might consider Ukraine worth the sacrifice of someone else's sons. I don't.

If you don't, then why should anyone think *you* worthy of sacrifice if you were the one in trouble? If we want to live in a stable and just world, we must be willing to make sacrifices in order to protect the weak from bullies. Doing anything else is nothing more than legitimizing the behavior, and *will* ultimately backfire on you.

The Russians don't get "messages" so there's no point in sending them.

Nonsense. There are plenty of people in Russia who are getting the message; Putin fucked them, and now they're paying the price. Sure, the masses at large may be eating the nationalistic propaganda up for now; but the country's elite are the ones who will be affecting any relevant change, and they're the ones who are getting the message. Putin's hellbent on military expansion and spending; but his own officials are now telling him that Russia simply can't afford that; they need to cut their military budget even if they cut pensions, started printing money, and raised taxes. And that's if the economy doesn't continue its downward death-spiral. So either Putin listens to them and Russia's military power is curbed... or he doesn't and Russia implodes and he gets replaced by the elite who will no longer put up with him fucking them over for the sake of keeping his popularity.

Don't believe me? Watch Moldova. You're about to see exactly the same tactics deployed there by the Russians as they used in Ukraine despite the "message" of sanctions.

Putin may well try; but it'd be a suicidal move born of desperation; Moldova is already far closer to the EU than Ukraine has ever been, and it would ensure that western sanctions continue throughout 2015 and beyond; something which Russia simply can not afford. Meddling with Moldova would be a ploy to keep fanning the flames of nationalism in order to keep his position of power secure while desperately hoping oil prices go up again (which wouldn't fix his problems but at least buy him some time). Thing is, it would lead to much stronger European sanctions; and Russia's elite knows this. Putin would probably find himself with a bullet in his back if he tried it; and then we'd see a new Russian government try to repair relations with the west as best they can without risking nationalist revolts.

That said, it's pretty unlikely that they're going to try the same thing they did in Crimea; Moldova is a landlocked country; and Transnistria just isn't all that relevant to Russia. It might make sense for them to take it if Russia controlled the whole of southern Ukraine, but they don't. Putin would expend serious military resources at a time when his own people are telling him he can't afford it, risking even more sanctions that will doom his economy... all so he can have a tiny insignificant strip of land as an exclave surrounded by hostile countries that could block Russia's access to the insignificant strip of land any time they want? Yeah, that doens't strike me as likely to happen. He'd sooner invade the baltics.
 
I'm all for Sweden joining Nato. I doubt we will though. It's politically pretty much a non-issue in these parts. Good news is that if we'd join few would care. But I don't think it'd happen
 
Russia is heading into a recession. The deepest since Putin took over. He'll have to get creative to distract the Russian people. That's what fascist dictators have always done in times of economic crisis. I think it's anybody's guess what will happen next.
 
If you don't, then why should anyone think *you* worthy of sacrifice if you were the one in trouble? If we want to live in a stable and just world, we must be willing to make sacrifices in order to protect the weak from bullies. Doing anything else is nothing more than legitimizing the behavior, and *will* ultimately backfire on you.

Being British, history has taught me that no-one is going to put their arse in a cramp to help my country; instead we'll do our share and more to help others, economically crippling ourselves for generations, and the thanks we'll get is minimal, but that is beside the point. You neatly strawman that I would not wish to help any country - that isn't true, I've simply pointed out that Ukraine and other former Soviet satellites aren't worth the consequences of "helping" them.

Nonsense. There are plenty of people in Russia who are getting the message; Putin fucked them, and now they're paying the price. Sure, the masses at large may be eating the nationalistic propaganda up for now; but the country's elite are the ones who will be affecting any relevant change, and they're the ones who are getting the message. Putin's hellbent on military expansion and spending; but his own officials are now telling him that Russia simply can't afford that; they need to cut their military budget even if they cut pensions, started printing money, and raised taxes. And that's if the economy doesn't continue its downward death-spiral. So either Putin listens to them and Russia's military power is curbed... or he doesn't and Russia implodes and he gets replaced by the elite who will no longer put up with him fucking them over for the sake of keeping his popularity.

The leader of the "opposition", such as it is in Russia, was given a custodial sentence today. Putin's Russia is not any form of democracy and the oligarchy will find that replacing Putin with someone else does not solve the problem and replacing Putin or even thinking about replacing Putin will cause some oligarchs to develop mysterious, sudden, and fatal illnesses. The idea that Putin will listen to either officials or the elite is touchingly naive. In the unlikely event Putin is replaced the chances are that his successor will be even more authoritarian and nationalist. I can't think of any examples in history of a an authoritarian, nationalist government in economic crisis being replaced with a less authoritarian, less nationalist one.

Putin may well try; but it'd be a suicidal move born of desperation; Moldova is already far closer to the EU than Ukraine has ever been, and it would ensure that western sanctions continue throughout 2015 and beyond; something which Russia simply can not afford. Meddling with Moldova would be a ploy to keep fanning the flames of nationalism in order to keep his position of power secure while desperately hoping oil prices go up again (which wouldn't fix his problems but at least buy him some time). Thing is, it would lead to much stronger European sanctions; and Russia's elite knows this. Putin would probably find himself with a bullet in his back if he tried it; and then we'd see a new Russian government try to repair relations with the west as best they can without risking nationalist revolts.

Again, you seem to be labouring under the delusion that economic woes will generate a moderating influence on a democratic Russia. Russia isn't democratic and economically screwing any country has never had the desired effect, in fact the opposite is true.

That said, it's pretty unlikely that they're going to try the same thing they did in Crimea; Moldova is a landlocked country; and Transnistria just isn't all that relevant to Russia. It might make sense for them to take it if Russia controlled the whole of southern Ukraine, but they don't. Putin would expend serious military resources at a time when his own people are telling him he can't afford it, risking even more sanctions that will doom his economy... all so he can have a tiny insignificant strip of land as an exclave surrounded by hostile countries that could block Russia's access to the insignificant strip of land any time they want? Yeah, that doens't strike me as likely to happen. He'd sooner invade the baltics.

Moldova directly borders the so-called "New Russia" of ethnic Russian-speaking people, just like Crimea did before it was subsumed. Once again you make the mistake of assuming that Russians think like westerners - the significance of Moldova to Russian nationalists is not its location or anything practical or tactical (although if you wanted to put any more pressure on Ukraine it is ideally located). The significance is that they have a population with a large Russian-speaking minority. Not only that but the Russian-speaking minority in Moldova can apply for and get Russian passports, making them "Russian" and Russia will move to protect "their" people just as they did in Ukraine.
 
Russia is heading into a recession. The deepest since Putin took over. He'll have to get creative to distract the Russian people. That's what fascist dictators have always done in times of economic crisis. I think it's anybody's guess what will happen next.

Bread and circuses. The question is, what sort of circus?
 
I'm all for Sweden joining Nato. I doubt we will though. It's politically pretty much a non-issue in these parts. Good news is that if we'd join few would care. But I don't think it'd happen

I took Finland first.

Here's what I got from last month. Washington post Nov 23: In interviews, Finland’s leaders see peril in standoff between Russia and the West http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...eril-in-standoff-between-russia-and-the-west/

"We are cooperating with Sweden very deeply and that is developing very fast. We are advanced partners of NATO. And in the end I like to mention the E.U. dimension. We all know according to the Lisbon Treaty we have given a guarantee that we will help member states if they face severe problems."

My comments:

If Russia plans to go against Finland, Europe will go with Finland which means the US will go with Finland.

Russia is not an industrial power so all it can threaten is nukes else it will lose very quickly.

Russia is too tied to the west now so he'll lose his country's support before things much worse there.

Putin gambit a huge failure.
 
Being British, history has taught me that no-one is going to put their arse in a cramp to help my country; instead we'll do our share and more to help others, economically crippling ourselves for generations, and the thanks we'll get is minimal, but that is beside the point.

It seems then, you haven't actually paid much attention in history class because British history is replete with examples of other countries coming to help you out. As many times as my country has waged war on yours, we've come to your aid more times still. Hell, some of your present-day territory is stuff we helped you conquer; Gibraltar ring a bell? A fat load of nothing we got from you as thanks for everything we did in that war by the way; being Dutch, history has taught me that Britain has a tendency to screw over its allies.

and You neatly strawman that I would not wish to help any country - that isn't true, I've simply pointed out that Ukraine and other former Soviet satellites aren't worth the consequences of "helping" them.

The problem with that; is that some of those former Soviet satellites include EU members. If you are not willing to come to their aid, then Europe is not willing to come to yours. It doesn't matter if it's Germany about to fall or Finland. And when it comes to those states outside the EU, we still have a moral obligation to stand up to bullies who pick on the weak for the sole crime of them trying to become closer to us.


The leader of the "opposition", such as it is in Russia, was given a custodial sentence today. Putin's Russia is not any form of democracy and the oligarchy will find that replacing Putin with someone else does not solve the problem and replacing Putin or even thinking about replacing Putin will cause some oligarchs to develop mysterious, sudden, and fatal illnesses.

Yes, because Putin apparently has telepathy and total control over everything that goes on in Russia. All some oligarch has to do is think it, and Putin snaps his fingers and there's poison in that oligarch's veins. Don't be ridiculous.

Replacing Putin with someone else more loyal to the interests of the elite will most certainly solve the problem for them in the mid to long term. With a replacement, they could get to work on repairing the relationship with the west and securing their own wealth.

The idea that Putin will listen to either officials or the elite is touchingly naive.

I didn't say he would listen; what I said was that he basically doesn't have a choice. Putin may *want* to buy all those shiny toys for his military, but he simply can't afford them. What's he going to do, buy them with IOU's?

In the unlikely event Putin is replaced the chances are that his successor will be even more authoritarian and nationalist. I can't think of any examples in history of a an authoritarian, nationalist government in economic crisis being replaced with a less authoritarian, less nationalist one.

What, Putin can have total control over what people think and can magically poison anyone who even thinks of rebellion, but a cabal of the richest and most powerful Russian elite couldn't possibly manipulate sham elections to put a moderate in power?


Again, you seem to be labouring under the delusion that economic woes will generate a moderating influence on a democratic Russia. Russia isn't democratic and economically screwing any country has never had the desired effect, in fact the opposite is true.

Far from it; I've said from the beginning that economic sanctions are only likely to increase nationalist tension. What I've said is A) that doing nothing is worse; and B) Since they're going to be nationalist fuckwits anyway, we're better off with them broke.

Moldova directly borders the so-called "New Russia" of ethnic Russian-speaking people, just like Crimea did before it was subsumed.

No, it borders the historic 'New Russia', but most people in that region today are *not* in fact, ethnic Russian speaking people. They remain a minority; and it's territory that is not in Russian hands. They'd surely have to invade the rest of Ukraine first before it makes sense to make moves on Moldova.

Once again you make the mistake of assuming that Russians think like westerners - the significance of Moldova to Russian nationalists is not its location or anything practical or tactical (although if you wanted to put any more pressure on Ukraine it is ideally located).

No, I'm assuming they aren't complete morons. There is no value whatsoever on taking Transnistria (or Moldova itself). It isn't just about getting yourself saddled with a worthless exclave; it isn't even useful to fan nationalist furor with. Nationalists are easy to manipulate; they could be kept happy with rhetoric and provocation towards NATO; it's completely unnecessary for Putin to launch another military campaign to keep his country awash in nationalist sentiment and himself in power; and if a military campaign *was* deemed necessary, there are others that promise to actually be worth the expenditure and effort instead of becoming a costly exercise in futility.

The significance is that they have a population with a large Russian-speaking minority. Not only that but the Russian-speaking minority in Moldova can apply for and get Russian passports, making them "Russian" and Russia will move to protect "their" people just as they did in Ukraine.

Moldova's "large" Russian speaking minority isn't anywhere near that what we've seen in Ukraine. Russia appears to have only been willing to take direct action in Crimea; and that's got over 50% Russian speakers. It's supported the rebels in the eastern regions which also have more than 50% Russian speakers, but has refrained from direct and overt action: why? Because Crimea was the only place of any real value to them. Donetsk and Luhansk apparently aren't worth any real effort. And if those areas, both with around 70% Russian aren't worth the effort, then Moldova with a paltry 15% definitely isn't going to be worth the effort. Even Transnistria is only 30% Russian. Russia will just poke and prod and hope things go their way, but they're not going to expend any real resources on it.

By the way, Moldovans (including those in Transnistria) can travel anywhere in the European Union without a visa; which unsurprisingly is a far more popular option than getting a Russian passport. *And* Moldovans can get Romanian passports, which makes them EU citizens. More than a million Moldovans are now EU citizens. Or in other words, around 25% are EU citizens; compared to just 15% who are ethnically Russian, most of whom don't have Russian passports. So Moldova really isn't the place for Russia to repeat the same trick. They might not like being hit by their own tactics.
 
I took Finland first.

Here's what I got from last month. Washington post Nov 23: In interviews, Finland’s leaders see peril in standoff between Russia and the West http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...eril-in-standoff-between-russia-and-the-west/

"We are cooperating with Sweden very deeply and that is developing very fast. We are advanced partners of NATO. And in the end I like to mention the E.U. dimension. We all know according to the Lisbon Treaty we have given a guarantee that we will help member states if they face severe problems."

My comments:

If Russia plans to go against Finland, Europe will go with Finland which means the US will go with Finland.

Russia is not an industrial power so all it can threaten is nukes else it will lose very quickly.

Russia is too tied to the west now so he'll lose his country's support before things much worse there.

Putin gambit a huge failure.
The difference between Finland and Sweden compared to ex-soviet states like Ukraine and the Baltic states is that the former don't have a significant ethnic Russian population installed during the cold war, so there is no reason for Russia to invade them under the guise of protecting Russian nationals. The recent violations are more about Russia reminding everyone about its existence than any territorial ambitions like in Ukraine or Crimea.

The bigger risk that would warrant NATO membership or EU security guarantees is long term, if Russia spirals totally out of control under some less level headed leader than Putin (say what you will about Putin but at least he runs a tight ship and keeps his own people in line). Joining NATO is not going to be on the table when shit has already hit the fan.
 
While I will agree that Putin is intervening in Ukraine to a degree I dislike, I will also note that his touch has been far gentler than the US intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen, etc. And yes, that includes Obama's actions so don't blame it all on Bush.

Those calling on the US to stop Russia are saying "When the US does it, it is ok, but when anyone else does it, it isn't. The US is above the standards it sets for other countries."
 
While I will agree that Putin is intervening in Ukraine to a degree I dislike, I will also note that his touch has been far gentler than the US intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen, etc. And yes, that includes Obama's actions so don't blame it all on Bush.

Those calling on the US to stop Russia are saying "When the US does it, it is ok, but when anyone else does it, it isn't. The US is above the standards it sets for other countries."
Exactly, and you forgot Cuba, Nicaragua, Salvador,..... CIA was running death squads in there for fuck's sake, funded by profits from sale of drugs in US.
And Iran, I forgot Iran, was constant meddling there worth it?
 
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Despite the uncritical support for Putin and Russia from some quarters (NATO attacking Russia in Georgia, seriously?)
Yes, Georgia was a de-facto NATO member at that time and certainly best friend of US and personally John McCain.
NATO should tread very carefully. The Russians are sensitive in a way we in the west cannot conceive. Watching Putin's question and answer session after his state of the nation address should disabuse anyone of the notion that Russians think or behave in a way that we consider rational.

Historic precedents abound. Had Stalin not invaded Poland with Hitler then eastern Poland would have been a buffer between the two dictatorships. I doubt it would have done anything to prevent Hitler eventually attacking the Soviet Union but the Nazis having to cross hundred of miles of Poland may have given Stalin the time to shake himself out of his panic earlier.

NATO should therefore avoid permitting border states to join. This would create a buffer to soothe Russian nationalism. Unfortunate for the Ukraine and similar nations because Russia will inevitably bully them if not outright absorb them on the most spurious grounds but, frankly, anything east of Germany isn't worth the hassle.
Yeah bully by giving them $250bil in the form of cheap gas and oil.
Similarly, driving the Russian economy into the ground for political spite is just a re-hash of the allies behaviour towards the German Weimar Republic in sucking the economy dry. Creating economic pressure creates social unrest and from that unrest will arise extremism.
West and US are not big on history lessons.
 
YOU might consider Ukraine worth the sacrifice of someone else's sons. I don't.

The Russians don't get "messages" so there's no point in sending them. Don't believe me? Watch Moldova. You're about to see exactly the same tactics deployed there by the Russians as they used in Ukraine despite the "message" of sanctions.

Oh, russians got the message all right. They got it when US backed Georgia attacked Russian peace-keepers when Medvedev just got into the office and Prime Minister Putin was away in China watching Olympic games. Then Western media portrayed and still portraying it as Russia attacking Georgia. Message was received perfect and clear, and message is - "we will attack you the moment Putin is out and we will blame you for that"

Now, I understand and share US frustration from having to deal with life-long presidents, but you have yourself to blame for that.
 
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YOU might consider Ukraine worth the sacrifice of someone else's sons. I don't.

The Russians don't get "messages" so there's no point in sending them. Don't believe me? Watch Moldova. You're about to see exactly the same tactics deployed there by the Russians as they used in Ukraine despite the "message" of sanctions.
This is coming from US who has been bullying Cuba for what? 60 years now?
What Cuba did to you? threw your puppet out?
And what about Moldova? all Russia recently did was installing trade tariffs which in that situation are automatic, not to mention are absolutely legal and logical and EU itself agrees with that.

Belarus is an ally of Russia and is in the same Custom Union, and Russia effectively did the same to Belarus because Lukashenko tried to make some cash on transit of sanctioned EU crap.
 
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This is coming from US who has been bullying Cuba for what? 60 years now? What Cuba did to you? threw your puppet out? And what about Moldova? all Russia recently did was installing trade tariffs which in that situation are automatic, not to mention are absolutely legal and logical and EU itself agrees with that. Belarus is an ally of Russia and is in the same Custom Union, and Russia effectively did the same to Belarus because Lukashenko tried to make some cash on transit of sanctioned EU crap.
I'm pretty sure that Hick is British. Even if he is an American, American sins dosn't mean that Russia can just invade anyone they want to.
 
This is coming from US who has been bullying Cuba for what? 60 years now? What Cuba did to you? threw your puppet out? And what about Moldova? all Russia recently did was installing trade tariffs which in that situation are automatic, not to mention are absolutely legal and logical and EU itself agrees with that. Belarus is an ally of Russia and is in the same Custom Union, and Russia effectively did the same to Belarus because Lukashenko tried to make some cash on transit of sanctioned EU crap.
I'm pretty sure that Hick is British. Even if he is an American, American sins dosn't mean that Russia can just invade anyone they want to.
Russia did not invade anybody.
Same with Cuba, they did nothing wrong (at the time anyway) and yet US have bullied them for 60 years.
As for the british then fine. It was British who started this mess in ME by drawing arbitrary border lines between arbitrary countries. Mess in Iran is british work too.
Russia took something back which should have never been taken from them in the first place.
And they did not even take it, it left Ukraine fair and square.
 
Those calling on the US to stop Russia are saying "When the US does it, it is ok, but when anyone else does it, it isn't. The US is above the standards it sets for other countries."

And what you're saying here is "It's okay for Russia to do bad things, because these other motherfuckers have done bad things too." :rolleyes:

Besides, nobody is calling on the *US* specifically to stop Russia.
 
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