Swedish women professors promoted with fewer citations, publications than men

[Loren Pechtel]

I know and some of the difference was attributable to that but not all and so they want to discuss the remaining part.

...so they compared within disciplines (e.g. within social sciences, within medicine). They excluded some disciplines (such as visual and performing arts) where peer-reviewed article publication is not the main basis for promotion to professorship nor the main activity of professors.

But if you imagine there is some cutoff, women and men make the cutoff, but men have a higher average.

Here's a hypothetical example:
Woman1 - 5 publications
Woman2 - 12 publications
Woman3 - 11 publications

Man1 - 11 publications
Man2 - 5 publications
Man3 - 17 publications
Man4 - 12 publications
Man5 - 20 publications
Man6 - 11 publications

No: if the cutoff were the same, men would be promoted earlier in their careers, at the time they reached the cutoff.

The authors specifically chose to examine publication record at the time of promotion.

No that's an assumption. People apply to professorships when they are ready to do so, whatever that may mean.

The authors did not find a difference in either AGE or number of children. So, this means roughly the same age.

Over a window of time where publications are typically done prior to professorship, let's say 10 years just to get something concrete, the couples may have children, and most of the time the child-rearing is more on the woman. So, over the 10 years, she has less publications than he does, until they are the same age, let's say 34 or whatever.

So at the time of professorship, she has less and he has more on average.

Let's just look at numbers so we can see how this could impact something. Supposing a couple has 10 years where they are having children....and in and out of taking time off to raise them prior to getting children into school. Suppose the couple has 3 children. Sweden gives 480 days off parental leave per child to be divided up, but 30 percent of men take it, meaning I suppose 70 percent or thereabouts women take it...discounting same-sex couples since this is just an estimate and same-sex couples are a smaller proportion of all couples.

In 10 years of serious academic work, 3 blocks of 480 days is significant. Raising the child is even more time, but consider only the legislated time off so we just have a minimal concrete number to look at.

Woman: starting 3650 days - 70%*3*480 = 2642 days for academia
Man: starting 3650 days - 30%*3*480 = 3218 days for academia

Obviously, these are not intended to be real numbers but just to illustrate orders of magnitude and how such differences are significant to outcomes. I mean, child-rearing doesn't end at school and 480 days off of work is not the same as how long it takes to raise a kid. 10 years in academia prior to a professorship is also just an arbitrary number of the appropriate order of magnitude--it's not 1 year and it's not 100.

You're doing a fine job of proving his point--they are discriminating in favor of women in order to "balance" things.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Are published articles the only criteria used to choose professorship?

In most academic fields that's how it works--publish or perish. How many articles you get published and how prestigious the journals they are published in is the scoring system.

 

[Toni]

Are published articles the only criteria used to choose professorship?

In most academic fields that's how it works--publish or perish. How many articles you get published and how prestigious the journals they are published in is the scoring system.

In some academic fields, at some universities. Please note the second criteria: prestige of the publication is not addressed by the OP or by you. It’s an unknown with regards to this thread. For all any of us know, On average, the women are publishing in more prestigious journals or are in fields where it is more difficult to recruit faculty.

 

[laughing dog]

Are published articles the only criteria used to choose professorship?

The simple answer is no. Depending on the university, teaching effectiveness (as Metaphor pointed out) can be used. Also, the ability to bring in research grants is sometimes used as well. Departments with Ph.D. programs sometimes include the quality and number of doctoral students a faculty member supervisors as part of the packet.

Universities differ on their promotion protocols - there is no universal criteria even within a university because departments may have different goals.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I know and some of the difference was attributable to that but not all and so they want to discuss the remaining part.



No that's an assumption. People apply to professorships when they are ready to do so, whatever that may mean.

The authors did not find a difference in either AGE or number of children. So, this means roughly the same age.

Over a window of time where publications are typically done prior to professorship, let's say 10 years just to get something concrete, the couples may have children, and most of the time the child-rearing is more on the woman. So, over the 10 years, she has less publications than he does, until they are the same age, let's say 34 or whatever.

So at the time of professorship, she has less and he has more on average.

Let's just look at numbers so we can see how this could impact something. Supposing a couple has 10 years where they are having children....and in and out of taking time off to raise them prior to getting children into school. Suppose the couple has 3 children. Sweden gives 480 days off parental leave per child to be divided up, but 30 percent of men take it, meaning I suppose 70 percent or thereabouts women take it...discounting same-sex couples since this is just an estimate and same-sex couples are a smaller proportion of all couples.

In 10 years of serious academic work, 3 blocks of 480 days is significant. Raising the child is even more time, but consider only the legislated time off so we just have a minimal concrete number to look at.

Woman: starting 3650 days - 70%*3*480 = 2642 days for academia
Man: starting 3650 days - 30%*3*480 = 3218 days for academia

Obviously, these are not intended to be real numbers but just to illustrate orders of magnitude and how such differences are significant to outcomes. I mean, child-rearing doesn't end at school and 480 days off of work is not the same as how long it takes to raise a kid. 10 years in academia prior to a professorship is also just an arbitrary number of the appropriate order of magnitude--it's not 1 year and it's not 100.

You're doing a fine job of proving his point--they are discriminating in favor of women in order to "balance" things.

No. That is called speculation from thin air and unrelated to anything I wrote.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Are published articles the only criteria used to choose professorship?

The simple answer is no. Depending on the university, teaching effectiveness (as Metaphor pointed out) can be used. Also, the ability to bring in research grants is sometimes used as well. Departments with Ph.D. programs sometimes include the quality and number of doctoral students a faculty member supervisors as part of the packet.

Universities differ on their promotion protocols - there is no universal criteria even within a university because departments may have different goals.

I also worked at an academic institution. In my department, publications were far down on the list of priorities. Money was most important and grants were only a small part. Title of Assistant Professor was given out like candy. There was also a lot of subjectivity in promotions (favoritism) and objective criteria, if gathered, were ignored. Other departments did not put as much priority into money.

 

[Rhea]

Women professors gravitate to teaching so it's natural to have less publications.
In any case, pumping publication counts is a well known sport in academia. if it was up to me I would have set a limit and even retroactively fire people who have excessive number of lower quality publications.
One publication per week or even month is by definition garbage.

Yeah, that was my thought. The study does not control for quality of publishing. Even being cited does not do that. It helps, but it is not a clear measure.

 

[Metaphor]

There are limited opportunities for a promotion to occur. They don't just magically happen whenever you want or ad infinitum.

If promotions to professerhood were like the Olympics, where there is only an opportunity once every four years to be evaluated, you might have a point. But they are not like that. Your imagined scenario to explain away the difference without invoking bias conflicts with the facts of promotion to professorhood.

Don2, it is evident that you have ruled out the possibility that there is a bias against men (or pro-women) in academic promotions in Sweden. If you find this data consistent with 'no bias', I can't imagine what data would not be consistent with your beliefs.

And if the quote posted by ruby sparks about Sweden aiming for as many women as men to be recruited to professorhood by 2030 is true, the bias will become more severe.

 

[Metaphor]

Women professors gravitate to teaching so it's natural to have less publications.
In any case, pumping publication counts is a well known sport in academia. if it was up to me I would have set a limit and even retroactively fire people who have excessive number of lower quality publications.
One publication per week or even month is by definition garbage.

Yeah, that was my thought. The study does not control for quality of publishing. Even being cited does not do that. It helps, but it is not a clear measure.

Are you suggesting that women are publishing fewer articles, in less prestigious journals, with fewer citations overall, and yet are publishing higher quality material that the promotions panels were able to take into account, but not the authors of the study?

 

[Metaphor]

Are published articles the only criteria used to choose professorship?

In most academic fields that's how it works--publish or perish. How many articles you get published and how prestigious the journals they are published in is the scoring system.

In some academic fields, at some universities. Please note the second criteria: prestige of the publication is not addressed by the OP or by you. It’s an unknown with regards to this thread. For all any of us know, On average, the women are publishing in more prestigious journals or are in fields where it is more difficult to recruit faculty.

Non. The journal impact factor, one measure of journal prestige, was measured and men were found to publish in higher IF journals (for one discipline at least).

I'm not sure what 'fields' you think might explain some of the variance. The authors studied within disciplines to control for differences between fields, and they eliminated fields where there were not enough promotions overall to make a meaningful within-field comparison between sexes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I know and some of the difference was attributable to that but not all and so they want to discuss the remaining part.



No that's an assumption. People apply to professorships when they are ready to do so, whatever that may mean.

The authors did not find a difference in either AGE or number of children. So, this means roughly the same age.

Over a window of time where publications are typically done prior to professorship, let's say 10 years just to get something concrete, the couples may have children, and most of the time the child-rearing is more on the woman. So, over the 10 years, she has less publications than he does, until they are the same age, let's say 34 or whatever.

So at the time of professorship, she has less and he has more on average.

Let's just look at numbers so we can see how this could impact something. Supposing a couple has 10 years where they are having children....and in and out of taking time off to raise them prior to getting children into school. Suppose the couple has 3 children. Sweden gives 480 days off parental leave per child to be divided up, but 30 percent of men take it, meaning I suppose 70 percent or thereabouts women take it...discounting same-sex couples since this is just an estimate and same-sex couples are a smaller proportion of all couples.

In 10 years of serious academic work, 3 blocks of 480 days is significant. Raising the child is even more time, but consider only the legislated time off so we just have a minimal concrete number to look at.

Woman: starting 3650 days - 70%*3*480 = 2642 days for academia
Man: starting 3650 days - 30%*3*480 = 3218 days for academia

Obviously, these are not intended to be real numbers but just to illustrate orders of magnitude and how such differences are significant to outcomes. I mean, child-rearing doesn't end at school and 480 days off of work is not the same as how long it takes to raise a kid. 10 years in academia prior to a professorship is also just an arbitrary number of the appropriate order of magnitude--it's not 1 year and it's not 100.

You're doing a fine job of proving his point--they are discriminating in favor of women in order to "balance" things.

No. That is called speculation from thin air and unrelated to anything I wrote.

Your "argument" is basically that women have less time to spend on it. That in no way rebuts the notion they produce less.

 

[Rhea]

Women professors gravitate to teaching so it's natural to have less publications.
In any case, pumping publication counts is a well known sport in academia. if it was up to me I would have set a limit and even retroactively fire people who have excessive number of lower quality publications.
One publication per week or even month is by definition garbage.

Yeah, that was my thought. The study does not control for quality of publishing. Even being cited does not do that. It helps, but it is not a clear measure.

Are you suggesting that women are publishing fewer articles, in less prestigious journals, with fewer citations overall, and yet are publishing higher quality material that the promotions panels were able to take into account, but not the authors of the study?

Suggesting? No.
Questioning? Yes. It was not clear fro the info you put whether the prestige of the journal was accounted. So I wondered. And my familiarity with written papers (I was a reviewer for an international symposium on automotive science) tells me that two authors in the same journal do not produce equal papers and that some authors produce quality and some produce quantity. Same symposium. One author submits one great paper, one author submits four that really should have been one, each citing the other papers.

It happens. So I wondered.

 

[Metaphor]

Are you suggesting that women are publishing fewer articles, in less prestigious journals, with fewer citations overall, and yet are publishing higher quality material that the promotions panels were able to take into account, but not the authors of the study?

Suggesting? No.
Questioning? Yes. It was not clear fro the info you put whether the prestige of the journal was accounted. So I wondered. And my familiarity with written papers (I was a reviewer for an international symposium on automotive science) tells me that two authors in the same journal do not produce equal papers and that some authors produce quality and some produce quantity. Same symposium. One author submits one great paper, one author submits four that really should have been one, each citing the other papers.

It happens. So I wondered.

In the study, men were more likely to have their work published in journals that had a higher Impact Factor (IF), an objective measure of prestige (though not necessarily quality, although prestigious journals have the option to accept only the highest quality and most interesting research).

 

[ruby sparks]

I think one thing is pretty clear here and we don't need to beat about the bush with it or deny it. In Sweden, there is a kind of social engineering experiment going on, in which some preferences are given to women over men. The recent statement by the Swedish Minister for Higher Education & Research that as many women as men will be recruited as professors by 2030 is effectively a quota policy.

I think all we can discuss is whether or not we agree that that is a good, useful, beneficial or right policy. And on that, everyone's mileage may vary, as they say.

 

[Metaphor]

I think one thing is pretty clear here and we don't need to beat about the bush with it or deny it. In Sweden, there is a kind of social engineering experiment going on, in which some preferences are given to women over men. The recent statement by the Swedish Minister for Higher Education & Research that as many women as men will be recruited as professors by 2030 is effectively a quota policy.

I think all we can discuss is whether or not we agree that that is a good, useful, beneficial or right policy. And on that, everyone's mileage may vary, as they say.

ruby sparks, you will never, ever hear the apologists on here admit systemic pro-woman privilege. Even when literal government policy - the most systemic you can get - is granting it.

 

[ruby sparks]

I think one thing is pretty clear here and we don't need to beat about the bush with it or deny it. In Sweden, there is a kind of social engineering experiment going on, in which some preferences are given to women over men. The recent statement by the Swedish Minister for Higher Education & Research that as many women as men will be recruited as professors by 2030 is effectively a quota policy.

I think all we can discuss is whether or not we agree that that is a good, useful, beneficial or right policy. And on that, everyone's mileage may vary, as they say.

ruby sparks, you will never, ever hear the apologists on here admit systemic pro-woman privilege. Even when literal government policy - the most systemic you can get - is granting it.

If true, not my problem, and shouldn't be yours when discussing with me.

Of course there is such a thing as systemic pro-women privilege. It's a no-brainer. Furthermore, it's always been the case, as far back as records go. In fact I would furthermore very much doubt if both sexes would have survived evolution if each did not have some inherent advantages, including those that play out as social advantages in a social species such as ours.

 

[atrib]

Are published articles the only criteria used to choose professorship?

No. How much research funding you bring in by writing proposals is the most important criteria for being promoted to professorship, at least in the engineering/science programs in US schools. The university and the professor get a cut, and the rest of the money is spent on funding grad students and improving lab facilities. How many papers you publish is of little consequence if you consistently bring in money, year after year.

 

[barbos]

Are published articles the only criteria used to choose professorship?

No. How much research funding you bring in by writing proposals is the most important criteria for being promoted to professorship, at least in the engineering/science programs in US schools. The university and the professor get a cut, and the rest of the money is spent on funding grad students and improving lab facilities. How many papers you publish is of little consequence if you consistently bring in money, year after year.

Yes, and guess what helps you to get your proposal funded?..... same old publication/citation/impact counter plus amount of grants already granted. It's all the same, If you bullshit well in articles then you bullshit well in proposals. And engineering departments are kings of outright bullshitting.