Syrian fakefugee injures 31 in Essen

[Bomb#20]

Who the bejesus told you that how Germany treats foreigners ought to be determined by what they deserve?!?

Nobody told me this. It's a direct inference from the principle that you ought to be nice to other people, a principle which I hold to be axiomatic.

Does that include being nice to Germans?

Germany is spending fifty billion euros a year on so-called refugees. Supposing for the sake of discussion that half of those are legitimate refugees and half are economic migrants, does pretending economic migrants are legitimate refugees in order to coerce people into paying twenty-five billion euros they never signed up for count as being nice to them?

Of course, Germany doesn't have to be nice. But she ought to be. We have all seen what the workd looks like when she isn't, and few of us want to see that again.

Hmm, yes, there's no middle ground between allowing yourself to be exploited and invading all your neighbors. Or were you explaining why your axiom comes with an "except Germans" secret protocol?

And this is a fairly limited amount of nice. Germany can easily afford it.

Any reason in particular to think a poor Syrian pretending to be a legitimate refugee "deserves help" more than an even poorer Burmese who told the Germans no lies and who'd leap at a chance to move to Germany? If Germany treated foreigners according to what they deserve, it would not be "a fairly limited amount of nice".

 

[laughing dog]

Through the democratic process, the German people collectively volunteered to charitably come to the aid of legitimate refugees

Well, kinda.

A tiny number of civil servants long ago were involved in a gabfest with other nations' civil services,...so they came up with this plan .... So the elected representatives, without consulting the electorate, signed. Forever comitting the country to the deal.

So yes, but actually, no.

Democracy plays very little part in politics in most countries; ...

So "volunteered" is rather a strong word. "Failed to violently object to some obscure negotiations far away" is more accurate.

I.e., the German people collectively volunteered to delegate that sort of decision to those particular elected representatives. That's what "Through the democratic process" means, in every country that doesn't make social choices by sending slaves through the marketplace carrying wet-paint ropes to herd the citizens into the public assembly amphitheater.

Still, regardless of who made the decision, or how representative they were of the German people, the motivation for deciding to help refugees was that the decision makers prefered to be seen as kind rather than callous; And the motivation for excluding economic migrants from the kind vs callous consideration was that economic migration was not at the time an important nor an urgent issue.

No doubt. And since that decision had jack squat to do with which migrants were how deserving, and since the current German taxpayers are bearing the cost of their long-ago-predecessors' representatives' preference not because they give a damn whether Konrad Adenauer is seen as kind but because that's the deal they woke up to find their country forever committed to, and not some alternative-history deal to take in all deserving migrants, your "Apparently, if someone might shoot or jail you, you deserve help, but if someone plans to starve you or drive you into grinding poverty, tough luck." slur, against the people who distinguish between economic migrants and legitimate refugees, was a misrepresentation of them.

Not any less or more of a misrepresentation of your interpretation of the views of the German population at large.

 

[bilby]

Does that include being nice to Germans?

Yes. As Tom Lehrer observed:

Once all the Germans were warlike, and mean
But that couldn't happen again,
We taught them a lesson, in nineteen eighteen,
And they've hardly bothered us since then...

 

[Bomb#20]

I had to read that a couple times...

Am I reading this right? When you put it the other way, it sounds pettier that we appreciate.

Sorry, I can't parse that.

 

[Bomb#20]

No, your application of Kantian ethics to Germany appears to conflict with bilby’s application of the categorical imperative, along with the democratic volunteering paradigm make muddle your claims in what’s left of my mind. But, in the end, it doesn’t really matter.

bilby does not appear to have made any application of the categorical imperative. If he actually was, my application of it appears to conflict with bilby's because he applied it incorrectly.

Not any less or more of a misrepresentation of your interpretation of the views of the German population at large.

I lost you. What "interpretation of the views of the German population at large" are you talking about?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Who the bejesus told you that how Germany treats foreigners ought to be determined by what they deserve?!?

Nobody told me this. It's a direct inference from the principle that you ought to be nice to other people, a principle which I hold to be axiomatic.

Does that include being nice to Germans?

Just the lower-cased ones.

Germany is spending fifty billion euros a year on so-called refugees.

Anyone want to remind me when Syria became nice? Wasn't there a very bloody civil war recently? I raise the civil war because ya mention Burma, currently going by Myanmar because the military junta running it likes it better. Polled well among the despots.

Also, how many from the nation formerly known as Burma are applying in Germany?

Of course, Germany doesn't have to be nice. But she ought to be. We have all seen what the workd looks like when she isn't, and few of us want to see that again.

Hmm, yes, there's no middle ground between allowing yourself to be exploited and invading all your neighbors. Or were you explaining why your axiom comes with an "except Germans" secret protocol?

And this is a fairly limited amount of nice. Germany can easily afford it.

Any reason in particular to think a poor Syrian pretending to be a legitimate refugee "deserves help" more than an even poorer Burmese who told the Germans no lies and who'd leap at a chance to move to Germany? If Germany treated foreigners according to what they deserve, it would not be "a fairly limited amount of nice".

'round these parts, you ain't refugee 'nough boy.

So now, the right-wing is flat out anti-immigrant... especially the immigrants!

 

[laughing dog]

No, your application of Kantian ethics to Germany appears to conflict with bilby’s application of the categorical imperative, along with the democratic volunteering paradigm make muddle your claims in what’s left of my mind. But, in the end, it doesn’t really matter.

bilby does not appear to have made any application of the categorical imperative. If he actually was, my application of it appears to conflict with bilby's because he applied it incorrectly.

I think his application of "Act according to the maxim that you would wish all other rational people to follow, as if it were a universal law.." is correct.

Not any less or more of a misrepresentation of your interpretation of the views of the German population at large.

I lost you. What "interpretation of the views of the German population at large" are you talking about?

"since the current German taxpayers are bearing the cost of their long-ago-predecessors' representatives' preference not because they give a damn whether Konrad Adenauer is seen as kind but because that's the deal they woke up to find their country forever committed to, and not some alternative-history deal to take in all deserving migrants"

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A lot of these people are "known to the police" but don't get deported.

In what way are "these people know to the police" that indicates they should be deported?

"Known to the police" normally means someone that the police have had multiple encounters with in the past. Not a law-abiding person.

I do support helping refugees--but only so long as they behave. Any substantial incidents should cause deportation even if that means sending them into a miserable place.

 

[bilby]

Any substantial incidents should cause deportation even if that means sending them into a miserable place.

Yeah, it's perfectly moral* to punish citizens with a small fine, or even a short custodial sentence, while non-citizens who commit the exact same offence are instead handed over to a regime that will torture and/or kill them.

That's totally proportionate, reasonable, and ethical*, on the self-evident basis that non-citizens are not really people, but are just non-player characters, whose existence serves no purpose other than our entertainment.

And anyway, it's not our fault* if someone is tortured by foreigners, even if we handed them over to those foreigners, knowing that that would be the result.

*Probably.