Tariffs are taxes

[Jolly_Penguin]

China hitting back yet again at Trump in their never ending Tariff escalation.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/bu...-back-trump-adds-tariffs-60b-u-s-made-n910616

If they wind up hitting all products on all sides, isn't that basically the same thing as them raising taxes and pretending its to help their economies? Would you put it past trump to have orchastrated this on purpose with the Chinese government?

This article argues that tariffs are a regressive tax system, as they put more of the burden on the lower income earners. As Trump cuts taxes for the rich, and sells himself as a tax cutter, he pushes tariffs, which it would seem are regressive taxes that hit the lower income earners the hardest.

https://voxeu.org/article/us-tariffs-are-arbitrary-and-regressive-tax

the burden is substantially higher for poor households than for the richest relative to their income

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

China hitting back yet again at Trump in their never ending Tariff escalation.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/bu...-back-trump-adds-tariffs-60b-u-s-made-n910616

If they wind up hitting all products on all sides, isn't that basically the same thing as them raising taxes and pretending its to help their economies? Would you put it past trump to have orchastrated this on purpose with the Chinese government?

The man that needed to be told that the US couldn't just print enough money to pay off the debt? The only question is, are these tariffs in place to fund "the wall".

This article argues that tariffs are a regressive tax system, as they put more of the burden on the lower income earners. As Trump cuts taxes for the rich, and sells himself as a tax cutter, he pushes tariffs, which it would seem are regressive taxes that hit the lower income earners the hardest.

It isn't supposed to be a tax. The consumer is supposed to select the domestically available option, helping the domestic economy. Seeing that the US doesn't produce a lot of the stuff we import from China... it ends up being a tax we pay on Chinese related imports, to absolutely no gain of anyone!

 

[laughing dog]

It is equivalent to tax on the purchaser even if one switches to a domestically available option because the domestically available options where more expensive or less quality (otherwise, they would have already been used).

 

[ronburgundy]

Not only do tariffs force consumers to buy goods that were already higher priced and lower quality, but the purpose of tariffs is to create more profit for domestic producers by stifling competition and allowing domestic producers to raise their prices an lower their quality even further.

However, the "tax" analogy is actually not a good one because tariffs are far worse than taxes. Taxes at least go to pay for things that are supposed to benefit the general population. Tariffs don't generate public revenue like an actual tax on those same goods would, because the whole point is to artificially lower the supply of those taxed goods into the country, which means they don't actually generate any tariff revenue. Instead of the public paying taxes to government, the extra $ that consumers pay for the crappy overpriced domestic goods goes into the pockets of corporate ownership and stockholders, which yields little benefit and often harm to most of the people paying those higher prices. The harm comes in form of all the things corporations and the rich often use their money for, which includes to buy government policies that funnel more of other people's $ and public resources into their own pockets, start wars that kill other people for profit motive, and use their increased market share to control and manipulate markets in ways that often harm consumers, workers, and the general public.

Since the companies getting that extra profit and thus political and economic power are precisely those who need the tariffs because they are too poorly run to succeed without government stifling their competition, that makes these companies even more likely than most to use those increased profits in ways that are harmful to the public and the integrity of our democracy.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Not only do tariffs force consumers to buy goods that were already higher priced and lower quality, but the purpose of tariffs is to create more profit for domestic producers by stifling competition and allowing domestic producers to raise their prices an lower their quality even further.

However, the "tax" analogy is actually not a good one because tariffs are far worse than taxes. Taxes at least go to pay for things that are supposed to benefit the general population. Tariffs don't generate public revenue like an actual tax on those same goods would, because the whole point is to artificially lower the supply of those taxed goods into the country, which means they don't actually generate any tariff revenue. Instead of the public paying taxes to government, the extra $ that consumers pay for the crappy overpriced domestic goods goes into the pockets of corporate ownership and stockholders, which yields little benefit and often harm to most of the people paying those higher prices. The harm comes in form of all the things corporations and the rich often use their money for, which includes to buy government policies that funnel more of other people's $ and public resources into their own pockets, start wars that kill other people for profit motive, and use their increased market share to control and manipulate markets in ways that often harm consumers, workers, and the general public.

Since the companies getting that extra profit and thus political and economic power are precisely those who need the tariffs because they are too poorly run to succeed without government stifling their competition, that makes these companies even more likely than most to use those increased profits in ways that are harmful to the public and the integrity of our democracy.

How do the corporations get the extra profit? Aren't they paying the import tariffs?

 

[RVonse]

The United States is the entity that gains from the profit. By becoming a manufacturing wealth generating country again.

You are all correct that the consumer pays more. And you also correct the corporations will not benefit directly either. It is the citizens of the US who benefit though, by way of a higher standard of living made available by producing leveraged wealth.

Show me a superpower nation who does not produce their own steel or have a strong manufacturing industry. These are exactly the reasons why the north won the civil war.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The United States is the entity that gains from the profit. By becoming a manufacturing wealth generating country again.

You are all correct that the consumer pays more. And you also correct the corporations will not benefit directly either. It is the citizens of the US who benefit though, by way of a higher standard of living made available by producing leveraged wealth.

Curious, who produces all of the products imported from China?

Show me a superpower nation who does not produce their own steel or have a strong manufacturing industry. These are exactly the reasons why the north won the civil war.

The US already has a strong manufacturing industry and produces a good deal of steel, around the same output since the 80s. Out Industrial Production continues to grow... we are just a lot more efficient.

 

[laughing dog]

How do the corporations get the extra profit? Aren't they paying the import tariffs?

The firms that sell domestic substitutes for the tariffed goods will earn extra profits.

Tariffs do generate tax revenue on the actual imported goods.

 

[RVonse]

Curious, who produces all of the products imported from China?

The United States will. When it is cheaper to manufacture in the US than China (due to the tariffs), the corporations will quickly move back home.

US already has a strong manufacturing industry and produces a good deal of steel, around the same output since the 80s. Out Industrial Production continues to grow... we are just a lot more efficient.

Sadly, not any more. China is by far the largest producer of steel and has been for many years. During Obama's last term US Steel stock dropped below $8/share which was actually below the value of their plant and equipment. Since Trump elected, it is up to $30 now, but their future is also very much tied right now to Trump and his tarriffs. The US could still very well lose its steel industry.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Curious, who produces all of the products imported from China?

The United States will. When it is cheaper to manufacture in the US than China (due to the tariffs), the corporations will quickly move back home.

Gosh, you must get all sorts of crazy when you squeeze too much toothpaste on the brush and try to put it back in the tube. "This should work!"

US already has a strong manufacturing industry and produces a good deal of steel, around the same output since the 80s. Out Industrial Production continues to grow... we are just a lot more efficient.

Sadly, not any more.

No... since the 80s, our production has been ballpark. The drop was between the 70s and 80s.

- - - Updated - - -

How do the corporations get the extra profit? Aren't they paying the import tariffs?

The firms that sell domestic substitutes for the tariffed goods will earn extra profits.

I ponder just how many domestic substitutes there are.

 

[Elixir]

Some of our assemblies use China-sourced materials. Stateside manufacturing of those same materials can be anywhere from 2x to 4x as expensive. So tariffs aren't going to "help" until they run in the 200% - 400% range. And that's going to drive up costs to the end user - considerably. So yeah - everyone stateside might have more money but it will be worth less... or maybe worthless, depending on what else the Dumpster Fire can fuck up.

 

[ronburgundy]

How do the corporations get the extra profit? Aren't they paying the import tariffs?

The firms that sell domestic substitutes for the tariffed goods will earn extra profits.

I ponder just how many domestic substitutes there are.

Many metric tons of domestic substitutes. Despite the lies told by Trump's Commerce report, the US already produces over 3 times as much steel as it imports. The tariffs on steel and other goods are designed to increase those percentages, and since it is only a few corporations doing all that domestic production, it will mean even more of a monopoly by domestic producers and massive price gouging and increased profits and market control by those companies.

It is the citizens of the US who benefit though, by way of a higher standard of living made available by producing leveraged wealth.

How exactly will US manufacturing increase when our former trading partners become enemies and no longer import the goods we produce? Only the industries where the US is putting tariffs on imports will see increased production, while many other industries that rely upon foreign consumers will produce less, causing unemployment, lower wages, lower standard of living and lower GDP.

These are the rather obvious and well known effects of starting a trade war.

The sizable growth in wages and reduction in unemployment that was steadily underway under Obama currently still has enough momentum to continue improving, but are already slowing down under Trump with median wage growth in 2017 being less than the per year average during Obama's last 4 years. Also, the trade deficit rose in both of the last 2 months. There are mostly losers to a trade war, but Trump is hoping enough of the handful of short-term winners will be in the rust belt states which he needs for re-election.

 

[Elixir]

I ponder just how many domestic substitutes there are.

Many metric tons of domestic substitutes. Despite the lies told by Trump's Commerce report, the US already produces over 3 times as much steel as it imports. The tariffs on steel and other goods are designed to increase those percentages, and since it is only a few corporations doing all that domestic production, it will mean even more of a monopoly by domestic producers and massive price gouging and increased profits and market control by those companies.

It is the citizens of the US who benefit though, by way of a higher standard of living made available by producing leveraged wealth.

How exactly will US manufacturing increase when our former trading partners become enemies and no longer import the goods we produce? Only the industries where the US is putting tariffs on imports will see increased production, while many other industries that rely upon foreign consumers will produce less, causing unemployment, lower wages, lower standard of living and lower GDP.

These are the rather obvious and well known effects of starting a trade war.

The sizable growth in wages and reduction in unemployment that was steadily underway under Obama currently still has enough momentum to continue improving, but are already slowing down under Trump with median wage growth in 2017 being less than the per year average during Obama's last 4 years. Also, the trade deficit rose in both of the last 2 months. There are mostly losers to a trade war, but Trump is hoping enough of the handful of short-term winners will be in the rust belt states which he needs for re-election.

RVonse seems to have an impressive stable of equal and opposite "experts".

 

[laughing dog]

The United States is the entity that gains from the profit. By becoming a manufacturing wealth generating country again.

Only as long as it keeps the tariffs up and only if the other countries do not retaliate.

You are all correct that the consumer pays more. And you also correct the corporations will not benefit directly either.

Your own posts rebut your claim. US Steel corporations are benefitting.

It is the citizens of the US who benefit though, by way of a higher standard of living made available by producing leveraged wealth.

No, some citizens will have a higher standard of living, but the average citizen ends up paying more for anything with steel or aluminum in it.

Show me a superpower nation who does not produce their own steel or have a strong manufacturing industry. These are exactly the reasons why the north won the civil war.

The US produced its own steel before the tariffs.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The Dems or a third party should carry this issue and actually point out how tariffs are set to make the rich richer and poor poorer, and a game Trump is playing, and imply that he may be in cahoots with China playing it. And they should use the buzzwords that raising tariffs are the same as raising taxes - which is bane to the Republican or Republican leaning voter.

The Democrat Party has sucked at messaging for a while now. The last time they did it well was when Obama had his "Yes we Can" message. What a great inclusive message that was, rather than "you are deplorables" and "No Bernie, We Can't" and "I'm with Her" (instead of her being with us).

 

[RVonse]

RVonse seems to have an impressive stable of equal and opposite "experts".

I can be my own expert since I am living in the middle of this, working for US Steel in the St louis area. Locally, jobs have gone from bust to boom! These are good union middle class jobs that can support families. The job market is so tight they are still looking but not finding enough skilled labor! That is a (good) problem for the rest of us who are making up for that in mandatory overtime.
US Steel is spending $millions in capital improvements right now. Locally the economic conditions have drastically improved and housing values rapidly on the rise.

So I can understand how the boom I am part of would not be seen other places; and I respect that. But the rest of the economy can't really be sucking wind that horribly either. Not with a 4.1 gnp growth.

The experts can go on and tell us Trumps tariffs are raining on the economy. But tell that to the people I know who are working high paying jobs at US Steel right now!

.

 

[Horatio Parker]

RVonse seems to have an impressive stable of equal and opposite "experts".

I can be my own expert since I am living in the middle of this, working for US Steel in the St louis area. Locally, jobs have gone from bust to boom! These are good union middle class jobs that can support families. The job market is so tight they are still looking but not finding enough skilled labor! That is a (good) problem for the rest of us who are making up for that in mandatory overtime.
US Steel is spending $millions in capital improvements right now. Locally the economic conditions have drastically improved and housing values rapidly on the rise.

So I can understand how the boom I am part of would not be seen other places; and I respect that. But the rest of the economy can't really be sucking wind that horribly either. Not with a 4.1 gnp growth.

The experts can go on and tell us Trumps tariffs are raining on the economy. But tell that to the people I know who are working high paying jobs at US Steel right now!

.

Six new steel mills, right?

 

[Trausti]

 

[Axulus]

The Dems or a third party should carry this issue and actually point out how tariffs are set to make the rich richer and poor poorer, and a game Trump is playing, and imply that he may be in cahoots with China playing it. And they should use the buzzwords that raising tariffs are the same as raising taxes - which is bane to the Republican or Republican leaning voter.

The Democrat Party has sucked at messaging for a while now. The last time they did it well was when Obama had his "Yes we Can" message. What a great inclusive message that was, rather than "you are deplorables" and "No Bernie, We Can't" and "I'm with Her" (instead of her being with us).

They can't do that because too many of them also support tariffs these days. Especially the so called progressive wing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

RVonse seems to have an impressive stable of equal and opposite "experts".

I can be my own expert since I am living in the middle of this, working for US Steel in the St louis area. Locally, jobs have gone from bust to boom! These are good union middle class jobs that can support families. The job market is so tight they are still looking but not finding enough skilled labor! That is a (good) problem for the rest of us who are making up for that in mandatory overtime.
US Steel is spending $millions in capital improvements right now. Locally the economic conditions have drastically improved and housing values rapidly on the rise.

So I can understand how the boom I am part of would not be seen other places; and I respect that. But the rest of the economy can't really be sucking wind that horribly either. Not with a 4.1 gnp growth.

The experts can go on and tell us Trumps tariffs are raining on the economy. But tell that to the people I know who are working high paying jobs at US Steel right now!

.

And how much is that due to the economy... which Trump inherited verses the tariffs?