Jimmy Higgins
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Yeah, you can then stop with the false narrative on caring about sovereign rights.
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Team Biden: Neocon Light?
- Thread starter funinspace
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Yeah, you can then stop with the false narrative on caring about sovereign rights.
Jimmy Higgins
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The United States using the "moral" argument gets old after decades of doing wrong for the good of defeating communism. But Russia claiming being the victim is quite nauseating.
barbos
Contributor
Sorry, I am not following. Are you saying NATO expansion is about Canada and Arctic?
funinspace
Don't Panic
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IMPOV, he is still going for a light version of a neocon, but he gets a big brownie point for this, assuming his team follows thru. Off the top, there is still China, Iran, Syria, Turkey, much of North Africa at play for the neocons. And there is even bullying of Germany, even if Putin is the head of the world's largest and maybe most dangerous mafia...
barbos
Contributor
Well, lets see here. US lied about anti-ICBM defense in Poland. Russia has been bitching about it until Obama admitted it "We lied about it, it was against Russia, not mythical Iranian missiles"
So, West can be nauseating in their lies too.
funinspace
Don't Panic
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Well, as Hellfire missiles cost about $150,000 a pop, and the F-22 costs about $60,000/hr to fly, I would guess that managing US equipment takes up a pretty chunk of those billions...but, yes I'm sure those sleazy contractors are sucking off billions of dollars as well.
TomC
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Here's where the problem comes in.
Both governments are pretty nauseating when it comes to foreign "adventures".
But as long as both governments are dominated by oligarchic elites, that's not going to change. At least the USA has a mechanism for change(the vote), but we don't much bother using it. Our system is nearly as rigged as the Russian system.
Here in the USA, the Demopublicans rig the elections in their favor and use militaristic police to enforce The Law. The Russians have different words for those things.
Tom
Swammerdami
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What is so sad is that Afghanistan could have been the greatest success story ever. Instead the whole fiasco has been a waste of time and money. Taliban is about to take over, certainly NOT what a majority of the Afghan people want.
What America should have done from the get-go.
U.S. Grab overwhelming military control. Watch Afghanis cheer.
— — That much happened.
Focus on grabbing bin Laden. Never get involved with Iraq.
Help the Afghani nation, but on its own terms. (Instead, bids were awarded to non-Afghan contractors with GOP connections, e.g. Eric Prince. Isn't his sister also a criminal?)
Forget the stupid "purple finger" election. The U.S. should have called for a Loya Jirga to appoint some President, achieving some middle ground between manipulating the result or letting popular sentiments win.
The country was very poorly developed and largely based on farming. Whatever its long-term future, it was very wrong in the near-term to thrust it toward GOP-style oligarchic economy. Stupidity, dogmatism, outright mischievousness and greed were all at hard work making Bush-43's worst decisions.
Betsy SecEd's brother?
What? I find your statements very confusing. In future (assuming you care whether your thoughts get across) I hope you write 25-word essays, rather than these 7-word punch-lines, if that's what they are.
Another punch-line?
J842P
Veteran Member
Highly doubtful.
Ironically, if the US had let the Soviets take over and not supported the Mujahideen, Afghanistan probably would have gone like the other central Asia stans - secular/moderate Islam.
J842P
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Doubtful. Although, I think US intervention there was foolish, but you and I probably have very different perspectives on the Cold War.
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Really?
Agreed. US elections are imperfect, but that is not in anyway equivalent to being as fucked as Russia.
barbos
Contributor
Swammerdami
Squadron Leader
I forgot to mention a key part of my "plan": The U.S. would have spent much money improving the lives of Afghanis, building schools, hospitals and roads. They would have presented a giant Carrot instead of a Stick. This would have enabled the people to progress, gain confidence, and reject the Taliban.
How much money? Much less than was wasted on stupid military adventures there.
barbos
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USSR tried that, US was against and sent lots of "sticks" to mujaheddin.
funinspace
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The only way this enlightened plan would have had a chance in Hades, would be if the US parked about 250,000 soldiers within the country AND secured the insanely rugged border with Pakistan. Even at our peak military body count, it still wasn't enough to properly suppress the Taliban... To get rid of the corrupting influence of contractors, it would take that many soldiers. And at 250,000 soldiers, the long term borrowing of National Guard and reserves would have been nearly impossible over the decade this would probably take. So, how to scrounge up so many soldiers for this occupation... Ergo the political problem the Shrub faced and solved by putting the war on Uncle Sam's credit card, pouring money upon contractors, and abusing the intent of the guard and reserves over the years...
Jimmy Higgins
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Very much so. If you are going to overthrow a government and replace it, and want that government to remain in power, you need to occupy that nation, not small parts of it. And if done right in the beginning, that could have happened, we had the coalition to work with and if done well and strongly enough, maybe (but still it was a long term project). However, the W Admin's hard-on for Hussein... well, it distracted the mission, if it really ever existed in the first place. The Neocons are blithering idiots when it came to the realities of nation building.
barbos
Contributor
Before Soviet invasion Afghanistan was fairly secular, albeit unstable state. After USSR invasion (which was provoked by the CIA with the sole purpose to payback for Vietnam) US started supporting islamic terrorists in their fight against secular government, which to be fair, have made mistakes with their dealing with religion.
In any case, it was US support which allowed this shit to grow to the size it is today. Now you have generations of people who never knew normal life.
In any case, it was US support which allowed this shit to grow to the size it is today. Now you have generations of people who never knew normal life.
Harry Bosch
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You're blaming the USSR invasion of Afghanistan on the US? Seriously?!!