• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Texas in Crisis

fromderinside

Mazzie Daius
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
15,945
Location
Local group: Solar system: Earth: NA: US: contiguo
Basic Beliefs
optimist
Perhaps this is a between the lines thing but when the radioactive melt through floor consequence lead to a partly enclosed area where some pressure might build. That pressure is nowhere near what for which a containment vessel is designed. So, yes there will be a thermal event with pressure overtones. Since pressure is behind the destroying of a pressure container that event will be very significantly greater than any follow on explosive pressure thermal event in an opportunistically created enclosed container.

May I suggest that talking about picking one's nose is more to point than is picking secondary explosions.

An analogy might be a volcanic explosion of the Yellowstone caldera followed by witnessing the activity of mud pots or geysers remaining there today.

Proper response to geysers is "Ho hum." There isn't call for "OH MY GOD!!!"
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
38,443
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
I saw the forecast for Phoenix with the excessive 110+, but the 109 is just sunny and hot.
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
21,822
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
113? God damn, hats off to you Loren.

I reckon in that kind of weather, you might want to keep your hat on.

Definitely. My hair has thinned enough that I must wear a hat when hiking or the top of my head will sunburn. There's enough hair to make it basically impossible to apply sunscreen, though.

114 now, today, tomorrow and Saturday.

I guess this is still about thermonuclear radiation …

My hair is now thin enough to let my scalp burn but too thick for lotion. The best solution I’ve found is WalMart spray sunscreen SPF 50. Very low viscosity lets it penetrate, and it blocks sun real well. I hate WalMart for various reasons but do appreciate that particular product.
 

Swammerdami

Squadron Leader
Staff member
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,299
Location
Land of Smiles
Basic Beliefs
pseudo-deism
:rofl: I think you genuinely believe that. Which is a sad indictment of the TV industry, and an excellent reason why you shouldn't try to use TV shows to learn facts.
(2) WHAT did the series get very wrong? Don't say that Whatsername was a conflation of several people: the series itself points that out in concluding remarks.
Where to start?

Let's take your example: There was never any risk of a second steam explosion doing any further damage; Any such event would have been minuscule in comparison to the major steam explosion that destroyed the reactor, and would have just tossed rubble around. No containment still existed that could have allowed sufficient over pressure for a steam explosion.

That's far from the only major factual error, but it is more than enough on its own to eliminate any claims of being a documentary.
(3) Same to you, buddy! :) I confirmed the relevant facts with Wikipedia and/or the sources it cites.

Clearly you didn't.

That's see if I got this straight.

In reality, the authorities led by a top nuclear scientist were worried about another steam explosion and therefore sent men on a dangerous mission.
In the dramatization, the authorities led by a top nuclear scientist were worried about another steam explosion and therefore sent men on a dangerous mission.
And you use this as evidence of the sad state of TV. Is that about right?

I don't know whether we should accept Professor Bilby's verdict on the possible explosion as better than that of the Chernobyl authorities or Wikipedia editors, but this seems irrelevant to the sub-debate.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
37,543
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Definitely. My hair has thinned enough that I must wear a hat when hiking or the top of my head will sunburn. There's enough hair to make it basically impossible to apply sunscreen, though.

114 now, today, tomorrow and Saturday.

Hot damn. Literally. Then, I wear a hat to protect my scalp and neck from the sun regardless of how much of a long haired hippy I am. Try not to die in that mess. I do enjoy bickering with you as much as it appears bilby and Swammerdami enjoy doing so.

I normally put sunscreen on my neck, but the top of my head can only be protected by objects. I've been experimenting with a sun umbrella for hiking--nice but I haven't figured out a good way to secure it to my pack to provide good shade which means it's not an option when I need my poles. It's easy to stick it in the pack to provide shade, but it's really too far back that way.

And the forecast has been updated--now it's also 114 for Sunday. So far the high temp record has been broken for 3 days in a row. And don't worry--I'm not hiking even on the mountain (20-30F cooler) in this heat!

And don't even think of Death Valley. They clocked 129F, approaching the world record.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
37,543
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Perhaps this is a between the lines thing but when the radioactive melt through floor consequence lead to a partly enclosed area where some pressure might build. That pressure is nowhere near what for which a containment vessel is designed. So, yes there will be a thermal event with pressure overtones. Since pressure is behind the destroying of a pressure container that event will be very significantly greater than any follow on explosive pressure thermal event in an opportunistically created enclosed container.

May I suggest that talking about picking one's nose is more to point than is picking secondary explosions.

An analogy might be a volcanic explosion of the Yellowstone caldera followed by witnessing the activity of mud pots or geysers remaining there today.

Proper response to geysers is "Ho hum." There isn't call for "OH MY GOD!!!"

If the core melted it's way into someplace it left behind a hole in doing so. No meaningful containment.

Besides, the problem in the first place wasn't containment, but a power excursion. Whether it went prompt critical or simply very close to it there's no question it produced a huge amount of heat very fast and that's what blew up.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
12,453
Gender
Androgyne; they/them
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
Definitely. My hair has thinned enough that I must wear a hat when hiking or the top of my head will sunburn. There's enough hair to make it basically impossible to apply sunscreen, though.

114 now, today, tomorrow and Saturday.

Hot damn. Literally. Then, I wear a hat to protect my scalp and neck from the sun regardless of how much of a long haired hippy I am. Try not to die in that mess. I do enjoy bickering with you as much as it appears bilby and Swammerdami enjoy doing so.

I normally put sunscreen on my neck, but the top of my head can only be protected by objects. I've been experimenting with a sun umbrella for hiking--nice but I haven't figured out a good way to secure it to my pack to provide good shade which means it's not an option when I need my poles. It's easy to stick it in the pack to provide shade, but it's really too far back that way.

And the forecast has been updated--now it's also 114 for Sunday. So far the high temp record has been broken for 3 days in a row. And don't worry--I'm not hiking even on the mountain (20-30F cooler) in this heat!

And don't even think of Death Valley. They clocked 129F, approaching the world record.

I'm a big fan of stetsons. They cover the head and shade the neck and ears. Put a drape on the back for the neck if you prefer shorter hair. Aren't you the Westerner here? Shouldn't you be telling ME a out the joys of quality hats?
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
12,453
Gender
Androgyne; they/them
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,831
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
(1) Ad hominem.

(2)


(3) I win. (See #1 and #2.)

I never suggested that people didn't fear it, only that it couldn't have actually happened.

Reality doesn't give two shits about who wins or loses debates. Winning a debate doesn't alter facts, nor change the laws of physics.

So in your mind, the dramatization would be more accurate if the characters talked only about the things we know now, as opposed to re-enacting the conversations they actually had at the time? :confused:

It did neither, so your guesses about what's going on in my mind are irrelevant.

Dramatisations are not documentaries. The latter show what happened, the former show what could perhaps have happened if the people involved had been trying to entertain an audience.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,831
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
:rofl: I think you genuinely believe that. Which is a sad indictment of the TV industry, and an excellent reason why you shouldn't try to use TV shows to learn facts.

Where to start?

Let's take your example: There was never any risk of a second steam explosion doing any further damage; Any such event would have been minuscule in comparison to the major steam explosion that destroyed the reactor, and would have just tossed rubble around. No containment still existed that could have allowed sufficient over pressure for a steam explosion.

That's far from the only major factual error, but it is more than enough on its own to eliminate any claims of being a documentary.


Clearly you didn't.

That's see if I got this straight.

In reality, the authorities led by a top nuclear scientist were worried about another steam explosion and therefore sent men on a dangerous mission.
In the dramatization, the authorities led by a top nuclear scientist were worried about another steam explosion and therefore sent men on a dangerous mission.
And you use this as evidence of the sad state of TV. Is that about right?

I don't know whether we should accept Professor Bilby's verdict on the possible explosion as better than that of the Chernobyl authorities or Wikipedia editors, but this seems irrelevant to the sub-debate.

There are two separate questions here. "Was there fear of a further steam explosion?" (quite possibly, though it wasn't justified fear). And "would such an explosion have made the disaster worse?", which was the question under consideration before we went off pointlessly chasing the other question.

Even if we accept ad argumentum that a second steam explosion was a certainty had no action been taken to prevent it, how would that have made things worse?

The brave people who fought the fires and undertook the deadly work of trying to deal with the disaster largely failed. By the time the fire was contained and the remains of the reactor were sealed away in the 'sarcophagus', most of the radioactive material from the reactor had been spread widely across the environment. Adding a bit more would have made little or no difference to the people affected.

My original point remains unchallenged (despite the goalpost shifting ITT); There's no way that the Chernobyl disaster could have been significantly worse than it was. 31 people died in the immediate term, and another 19 died due to medium to long term effects unequivocally linked to the disaster. Had the authorities simply evacuated a large area and waited until the whole thing burned itself out, the total number of fatalities would likely have been significantly lower. Certainly there's no way they could have been an order of magnitude higher.

Of course, such a strategy would have been unthinkable, for the harm it would have done to the already badly battered image of the USSR.

But the big lesson of Chernobyl is that a worst case, zero containment, explosive destruction of a nuclear reactor at the point in its fuel cycle where radioactive fission products are at their highest level, and those are then spread by an intense fire across a wide area, kills about fifty people and makes perhaps another five hundred sufficiently unwell as to require medical treatment. An area up to about a 100km radius becomes sufficently contaminated as to be unwise to live in for about three decades, although people living there don't suffer measurable health impacts. After that time, radiation levels are below the highest natural background radiation levels at which people habitually live, and only a small number of hotspots require to be isolated or cleaned up.

In short, nuclear accidents of the worst possible kind are medium sized industrial accidents, of the scale that we have tolerated on a once or twice a decade basis since the 1850s; And their main point of difference from other industrial accidents is that they are both less common, and (at worst) less damaging.

Before Chernobyl, nobody knew what the worst case would look like, and imaginations ran wild. Anti-nuclear campaigners said things like "sure, there might only be one accident in ten thousand reactor years of operation, but that accident could render half the planet uninhabitable for thousands of years, and could kill millions!" But we now know that fatal accidents occur once in more than 20,000 reactor years, and render a small area unusable for a few decades, having killed fewer than 100 people.

That's a lower risk level than any other way of making electricity; And lower than any other industrial activity.

If nuclear power is too dangerous to use, then electricity is too dangerous to use, and industry is too dangerous to engage in.

Just in the 1980s, the Bhopal disaster in 1984 killed seventy five times as many people as Chernobyl, and contaminated a wider area. The Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 was at the time the most expensive industrial disaster in history. Chernobyl wasn't particularly worthy of more attention than either (then or now), and only gets more attention because nuclear disasters are so abnormal (in much the same way that airliner crashes get more attention than car crashes).
 

TV and credit cards

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
4,794
Location
muh-dahy-nuh
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
I normally put sunscreen on my neck, but the top of my head can only be protected by objects. I've been experimenting with a sun umbrella for hiking--nice but I haven't figured out a good way to secure it to my pack to provide good shade which means it's not an option when I need my poles. It's easy to stick it in the pack to provide shade, but it's really too far back that way.

And the forecast has been updated--now it's also 114 for Sunday. So far the high temp record has been broken for 3 days in a row. And don't worry--I'm not hiking even on the mountain (20-30F cooler) in this heat!

And don't even think of Death Valley. They clocked 129F, approaching the world record.

I'm a big fan of stetsons. They cover the head and shade the neck and ears. Put a drape on the back for the neck if you prefer shorter hair. Aren't you the Westerner here? Shouldn't you be telling ME a out the joys of quality hats?

Tilley makes a good hat for hiking.
 

fromderinside

Mazzie Daius
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
15,945
Location
Local group: Solar system: Earth: NA: US: contiguo
Basic Beliefs
optimist
113? God damn, hats off to you Loren.

Going for a record-breaking 116 today. However, it's a very dry heat, 5% humidity.

So, in Kennewick WN back in the late '50s, from late July through mid August, temperatures normally rose to the high 100-high teens.

Now Vegas, almost 800 miles south is now getting high 100-teens, it's proof positive evidence of global warming?

Idonthinso.

The fright suiters look just as silly today as they did back in the day. Sure we're going to hell in a handbasket, but be reasonable guys it's summer in a couple days. Things aren't really getting out of hand in the states like they have been in the middle-east now for nearly 50 years.


I Don't deny warming. Just think we should be more proportional about it. We've got about another 200 feet of ocean rising in the near future. The give me the good life wannabes aren't moving out of Florida, they're building concrete barriers. To little to late.

Humans. Can't live with 'em can't live without 'em. When and where will the hair-on-fire 'ems finally get in line with the fungole 'ems.

It is the best of times It is the worst of times ...
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
21,822
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
I Don't deny warming. Just think we should be more proportional about it. We've got about another 200 feet of ocean rising in the near future. The give me the good life wannabes aren't moving out of Florida, they're building concrete barriers.

If I were younger I'd be looking a topo maps right about now, and speculating. Sea levels will certainly rise. Some existing shorelines won't move, but many will.

‘Woke up sweating’: Texas power companies remotely raise temperatures on people using their smart thermostats

Yeah, the above probably speaks more to Texas' incompetent goobermint than to climate change.
I wonder what will happen with the next big gamma ray burst. Steam engines should still work...
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
13,552
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
And don't even think of Death Valley. They clocked 129F, approaching the world record.

We visited death valley on a day that it was 128°F. I drank a gallon of water.
And noticed the most useless item in the world - air hand dryers in the bathrooms at Furnace Creek.

Funny story, we camped in Death Valley that night. We asked the ranger in Furnace creek how high (elevation) we’d need to get to be comfortable. They had campgrounds at -280ft (not viable), and 2000 feet (still too hot) and 4000 feet and 8000 feet. Ranger said we’d probably be comfortable at 4000 feet, the temps might get down into the 90s for the night. We asked, “if we drive all the way up there (25 miles away), will we be able to get a spot, do you think?. She looked at us levelly - and very slowly nodded her head (like, “oh, yeah, no question in my mind”). LOL.

We got there and we were the ONLY people in the campground. It was a fabulous night, the sky was AMAZING - able to see the milky way perfectly like all those professional photos, and it got down to 85° and we lay on the picnic tables watching the stars for hours before the wild burros came up the road in a big herd and then we slept in the utter quiet.

The next day, our heater hose broke about 50 miles outside the park. Luckily we had lots of water to drink while we fixed it (bypassed heater which of course we did not need at that time).
 

Swammerdami

Squadron Leader
Staff member
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,299
Location
Land of Smiles
Basic Beliefs
pseudo-deism
Let me express apologies to all, especially to Mr. Bilby. (I intend to open another thread to discuss Swammi's personality disorders.)

:rofl: I think you genuinely believe that.
This sounded slightly condescending. I'd let it pass if I were a manlier man, or even a properly matured adult but instead I am over-sensitive, many orders of magnitude worse than typical complainants. After this, the "sub-thread" had no meaning for me except the stupid idea that bilby should retract this remark.

There's only one Farang I see often -- a Brexit fan; we visit the same mini-mart. Recently we stood in that parking lot, with his mention of Biden flaws. I raised my voice. He then likened me to Trump! I was struck speechless! He was right. Yes, I do lose control and rant just like Trump does. :(

I herewith apologize for my personality disorders and, again, apologize personally to Mr. Bilby.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
38,443
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
113? God damn, hats off to you Loren.

Going for a record-breaking 116 today. However, it's a very dry heat, 5% humidity.

So, in Kennewick WN back in the late '50s, from late July through mid August, temperatures normally rose to the high 100-high teens.

Now Vegas, almost 800 miles south is now getting high 100-teens, it's proof positive evidence of global warming?

Idonthinso.

The fright suiters look just as silly today as they did back in the day. Sure we're going to hell in a handbasket, but be reasonable guys it's summer in a couple days. Things aren't really getting out of hand in the states like they have been in the middle-east now for nearly 50 years.


I Don't deny warming. Just think we should be more proportional about it. We've got about another 200 feet of ocean rising in the near future. The give me the good life wannabes aren't moving out of Florida, they're building concrete barriers. To little to late.

Humans. Can't live with 'em can't live without 'em. When and where will the hair-on-fire 'ems finally get in line with the fungole 'ems.

It is the best of times It is the worst of times ...

It isn’t because AZ is hot. The heat dome is toasting a much larger area than usual, and much earlier than typical. And this heat wave is actually setting all-time high records in some places.

I know around my parts, we have set month long stretch records for highs and low and precipitation.

This heat wave is to disappear for a few days and then come back. That isn’t normal.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
37,543
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
37,543
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
My original point remains unchallenged (despite the goalpost shifting ITT); There's no way that the Chernobyl disaster could have been significantly worse than it was. 31 people died in the immediate term, and another 19 died due to medium to long term effects unequivocally linked to the disaster. Had the authorities simply evacuated a large area and waited until the whole thing burned itself out, the total number of fatalities would likely have been significantly lower. Certainly there's no way they could have been an order of magnitude higher.

Letting it burn would probably have spread a lot more crap around.

But the big lesson of Chernobyl is that a worst case, zero containment, explosive destruction of a nuclear reactor at the point in its fuel cycle where radioactive fission products are at their highest level, and those are then spread by an intense fire across a wide area, kills about fifty people and makes perhaps another five hundred sufficiently unwell as to require medical treatment. An area up to about a 100km radius becomes sufficently contaminated as to be unwise to live in for about three decades, although people living there don't suffer measurable health impacts. After that time, radiation levels are below the highest natural background radiation levels at which people habitually live, and only a small number of hotspots require to be isolated or cleaned up.

Other than the city evacuation I agree with you. I haven't seen good data on the risk of being in Pripyat, but Fukushima certainly shouldn't have been evacuated.

Before Chernobyl, nobody knew what the worst case would look like, and imaginations ran wild. Anti-nuclear campaigners said things like "sure, there might only be one accident in ten thousand reactor years of operation, but that accident could render half the planet uninhabitable for thousands of years, and could kill millions!" But we now know that fatal accidents occur once in more than 20,000 reactor years, and render a small area unusable for a few decades, having killed fewer than 100 people.

And there was the continual worry about China Syndrome accidents. I never understood it at first--why would the mass stay together?? (Look what happened to Chernobyl--it spread out, the reaction stopped.) I have since come to realize it couldn't happen in the first place--the margin between subcritical (stops burning a hole) and prompt critical (goes boom rather than burning a hole) is simply too narrow, no uncontrolled mass can navigate that knife's edge for long.

That's a lower risk level than any other way of making electricity; And lower than any other industrial activity.

Actually, it looks like utility-scale solar might be a hair safer than nuke--but neither measures the secondary deaths from things like manufacturing the equipment so who knows?
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
37,543
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
And don't even think of Death Valley. They clocked 129F, approaching the world record.

We visited death valley on a day that it was 128°F. I drank a gallon of water.
And noticed the most useless item in the world - air hand dryers in the bathrooms at Furnace Creek.

Useless at that temperature, not so useless in the winter.

Funny story, we camped in Death Valley that night. We asked the ranger in Furnace creek how high (elevation) we’d need to get to be comfortable. They had campgrounds at -280ft (not viable), and 2000 feet (still too hot) and 4000 feet and 8000 feet. Ranger said we’d probably be comfortable at 4000 feet, the temps might get down into the 90s for the night. We asked, “if we drive all the way up there (25 miles away), will we be able to get a spot, do you think?. She looked at us levelly - and very slowly nodded her head (like, “oh, yeah, no question in my mind”). LOL.

90 isn't comfortable. I would have gone for the 8,000' one but the only place I can think of where you can drive that high is 4x4 only.

We got there and we were the ONLY people in the campground. It was a fabulous night, the sky was AMAZING - able to see the milky way perfectly like all those professional photos, and it got down to 85° and we lay on the picnic tables watching the stars for hours before the wild burros came up the road in a big herd and then we slept in the utter quiet.

I've never spent the night out there but I have hiked under a reasonably full moon--the stars are impressive.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
38,443
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
So Texas stripped its energy grid from the national grids in order to have more freedom.

You might see where this is going.
article said:
Texas power companies heated up some customers' homes last week by remotely controlling their smart thermostats, KHOU 11 reported Thursday.

One resident in the state, which is facing a heat wave that is straining its power grid, told KHOU 11 his family had awoken from a nap sweating and shocked their home had gotten as hot as 78 degrees Fahrenheit.

It turns out they had enrolled their thermostats in an energy-conservation promotion called Smart Savers Texas, run by a company called EnergyHub, in partnership with power companies. The program gives EnergyHub permission to adjust participants' smart thermostats remotely during times of peak energy demand, in exchange for entry into a sweepstakes.

"During a demand-response event, Smart Savers Texas increases the temperature on participating thermostats by up to 4 degrees to reduce energy consumption and relieve stress on the grid," Erika Diamond, EnergyHub's vice president of customer solutions, told Insider, adding that "the ability to reduce energy consumption is critical to managing the grid, in Texas and nationwide."
So, the companies are forcing people to raise their thermostats. The irony of going from rule of the Government to rule of the Corporation.

Deregulation has saved you on rates and because we can no longer provide you with the comfort you'd like, you are also saving some cash there too. You're welcome.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
37,543
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
So Texas stripped its energy grid from the national grids in order to have more freedom.

You might see where this is going.
article said:
Texas power companies heated up some customers' homes last week by remotely controlling their smart thermostats, KHOU 11 reported Thursday.

One resident in the state, which is facing a heat wave that is straining its power grid, told KHOU 11 his family had awoken from a nap sweating and shocked their home had gotten as hot as 78 degrees Fahrenheit.

It turns out they had enrolled their thermostats in an energy-conservation promotion called Smart Savers Texas, run by a company called EnergyHub, in partnership with power companies. The program gives EnergyHub permission to adjust participants' smart thermostats remotely during times of peak energy demand, in exchange for entry into a sweepstakes.

"During a demand-response event, Smart Savers Texas increases the temperature on participating thermostats by up to 4 degrees to reduce energy consumption and relieve stress on the grid," Erika Diamond, EnergyHub's vice president of customer solutions, told Insider, adding that "the ability to reduce energy consumption is critical to managing the grid, in Texas and nationwide."
So, the companies are forcing people to raise their thermostats. The irony of going from rule of the Government to rule of the Corporation.

Deregulation has saved you on rates and because we can no longer provide you with the comfort you'd like, you are also saving some cash there too. You're welcome.

Huh? This sounds like they knowingly signed up for it and forgot about it.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
38,443
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
So Texas stripped its energy grid from the national grids in order to have more freedom.

You might see where this is going.
article said:
Texas power companies heated up some customers' homes last week by remotely controlling their smart thermostats, KHOU 11 reported Thursday.

One resident in the state, which is facing a heat wave that is straining its power grid, told KHOU 11 his family had awoken from a nap sweating and shocked their home had gotten as hot as 78 degrees Fahrenheit.

It turns out they had enrolled their thermostats in an energy-conservation promotion called Smart Savers Texas, run by a company called EnergyHub, in partnership with power companies. The program gives EnergyHub permission to adjust participants' smart thermostats remotely during times of peak energy demand, in exchange for entry into a sweepstakes.

"During a demand-response event, Smart Savers Texas increases the temperature on participating thermostats by up to 4 degrees to reduce energy consumption and relieve stress on the grid," Erika Diamond, EnergyHub's vice president of customer solutions, told Insider, adding that "the ability to reduce energy consumption is critical to managing the grid, in Texas and nationwide."
So, the companies are forcing people to raise their thermostats. The irony of going from rule of the Government to rule of the Corporation.

Deregulation has saved you on rates and because we can no longer provide you with the comfort you'd like, you are also saving some cash there too. You're welcome.

Huh? This sounds like they knowingly signed up for it and forgot about it.
Yeah, for a chance at a sweepstake, they sold out on rights. To save a few bucks, they also sold out on almost certain access to power. Some choices shouldn't be left to people to make. ERCOT and the Pandemic have proven it.
 

TomC

Celestial Highness
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
5,016
Location
Midwestern USA
Gender
Faggot
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic deist
One resident in the state, which is facing a heat wave that is straining its power grid, told KHOU 11 his family had awoken from a nap sweating and shocked their home had gotten as hot as 78 degrees Fahrenheit.

OMFG!

Expected to survive 78F temperatures in Texas in the summer?!?!

Oh the inhumanity!
Oh the problems first World people must face!

Tom
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
21,822
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
One resident in the state, which is facing a heat wave that is straining its power grid, told KHOU 11 his family had awoken from a nap sweating and shocked their home had gotten as hot as 78 degrees Fahrenheit.

OMFG!

Expected to survive 78F temperatures in Texas in the summer?!?!

Oh the inhumanity!
Oh the problems first World people must face!

Tom

Snowflakes! I remember enduring 95 degree heat without a whimper.
Must have something to do with THE TEXAS GOOBERMINT deciding how hot they should be.
Time to break out those AR-15s and fight the oppression!
 

T.G.G. Moogly

Traditional Atheist
Joined
Mar 19, 2001
Messages
9,387
Location
PA USA
Basic Beliefs
egalitarian
One resident in the state, which is facing a heat wave that is straining its power grid, told KHOU 11 his family had awoken from a nap sweating and shocked their home had gotten as hot as 78 degrees Fahrenheit.

OMFG!

Expected to survive 78F temperatures in Texas in the summer?!?!

Oh the inhumanity!
Oh the problems first World people must face!

Tom
That's what I was thinking.

Thanks for the reality check.

I'm hopeful no one succumbed to the utterly oppressive 78 degree heat.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
37,543
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Huh? This sounds like they knowingly signed up for it and forgot about it.
Yeah, for a chance at a sweepstake, they sold out on rights. To save a few bucks, they also sold out on almost certain access to power. Some choices shouldn't be left to people to make. ERCOT and the Pandemic have proven it.

Pay more attention to the situation!

I don't know how the program works in Texas, but around here if they trigger it the thermostats go up 4 degrees. It is not an insane choice, there's no reason it shouldn't be left to the people. This is no catastrophe, this is simply idiots. Setting your thermostat to 78 is horrible?? Our house is set higher than that, simply dress lightly and it's fine.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
33,050
Location
Frozen in Michigan
Gender
Old Fart
Basic Beliefs
Democratic Socialist Atheist
It’s been almost a year since Gov. Greg Abbott proclaimed that he and state lawmakers did “everything that needed to be done” to prevent electricity blackouts like the one that left hundreds of Texans dead and millions more shivering in the dark for days during a brutal freeze in 2021.

But as temperatures soared toward triple digits this month and the Texas grid manager twice resorted to urging conservation measures normally reserved for summer, Abbott’s boast appeared to be little more than hot air. The conservation warnings had some Texans bracing for the worst, and it's easy to understand why. The grid reform bill Abbott signed last year fell short of the structural overhaul many experts believe is needed to protect us.
Even as it issues conservation notices, the Electricity Reliability Council of Texas – or ERCOT – continues to assert that the grid is stable. Naturally, some Texans fear another catastrophe on the scale of the 2021 freeze, when we briefly risked losing electricity for months. They wonder if this problem will ever get fixed. Sadly, experts predict more pain unless politicians confront reality and tackle structural grid problems in earnest.

We hope ERCOT's predictions of stability this summer are accurate, but recent events don't inspire confidence. The Texas Tribune reported last week that ERCOT, which manages the grid, canceled crucial spring repairs at at least one power plant on May 12 and required it keep producing electricity through the unseasonably hot weather. The plant broke down under the strain, as did five others that were asked to postpone maintenance. An ERCOT spokesperson denied that maintenance delays caused the failures, but power plant officials said they know better.
Texas will make a great third world country when they secede.
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
21,822
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
experts predict more pain unless politicians confront reality and tackle structural grid problems in earnest

That would cost money, which costs votes. Why should they do that when the Fed will always bail them out?
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
12,453
Gender
Androgyne; they/them
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
It’s been almost a year since Gov. Greg Abbott proclaimed that he and state lawmakers did “everything that needed to be done” to prevent electricity blackouts like the one that left hundreds of Texans dead and millions more shivering in the dark for days during a brutal freeze in 2021.

But as temperatures soared toward triple digits this month and the Texas grid manager twice resorted to urging conservation measures normally reserved for summer, Abbott’s boast appeared to be little more than hot air. The conservation warnings had some Texans bracing for the worst, and it's easy to understand why. The grid reform bill Abbott signed last year fell short of the structural overhaul many experts believe is needed to protect us.
Even as it issues conservation notices, the Electricity Reliability Council of Texas – or ERCOT – continues to assert that the grid is stable. Naturally, some Texans fear another catastrophe on the scale of the 2021 freeze, when we briefly risked losing electricity for months. They wonder if this problem will ever get fixed. Sadly, experts predict more pain unless politicians confront reality and tackle structural grid problems in earnest.

We hope ERCOT's predictions of stability this summer are accurate, but recent events don't inspire confidence. The Texas Tribune reported last week that ERCOT, which manages the grid, canceled crucial spring repairs at at least one power plant on May 12 and required it keep producing electricity through the unseasonably hot weather. The plant broke down under the strain, as did five others that were asked to postpone maintenance. An ERCOT spokesperson denied that maintenance delays caused the failures, but power plant officials said they know better.
Texas will make a great third world country when they secede.
Until they're annexed by mexico.
 

Gospel

Unify Africa
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
3,791
Location
Florida
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic
It’s been almost a year since Gov. Greg Abbott proclaimed that he and state lawmakers did “everything that needed to be done” to prevent electricity blackouts like the one that left hundreds of Texans dead and millions more shivering in the dark for days during a brutal freeze in 2021.

But as temperatures soared toward triple digits this month and the Texas grid manager twice resorted to urging conservation measures normally reserved for summer, Abbott’s boast appeared to be little more than hot air. The conservation warnings had some Texans bracing for the worst, and it's easy to understand why. The grid reform bill Abbott signed last year fell short of the structural overhaul many experts believe is needed to protect us.
Even as it issues conservation notices, the Electricity Reliability Council of Texas – or ERCOT – continues to assert that the grid is stable. Naturally, some Texans fear another catastrophe on the scale of the 2021 freeze, when we briefly risked losing electricity for months. They wonder if this problem will ever get fixed. Sadly, experts predict more pain unless politicians confront reality and tackle structural grid problems in earnest.

We hope ERCOT's predictions of stability this summer are accurate, but recent events don't inspire confidence. The Texas Tribune reported last week that ERCOT, which manages the grid, canceled crucial spring repairs at at least one power plant on May 12 and required it keep producing electricity through the unseasonably hot weather. The plant broke down under the strain, as did five others that were asked to postpone maintenance. An ERCOT spokesperson denied that maintenance delays caused the failures, but power plant officials said they know better.
Texas will make a great third world country when they secede.
Until they're annexed by mexico.

If they agree to build a new wall they may get Trump's approval.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
12,453
Gender
Androgyne; they/them
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
It’s been almost a year since Gov. Greg Abbott proclaimed that he and state lawmakers did “everything that needed to be done” to prevent electricity blackouts like the one that left hundreds of Texans dead and millions more shivering in the dark for days during a brutal freeze in 2021.

But as temperatures soared toward triple digits this month and the Texas grid manager twice resorted to urging conservation measures normally reserved for summer, Abbott’s boast appeared to be little more than hot air. The conservation warnings had some Texans bracing for the worst, and it's easy to understand why. The grid reform bill Abbott signed last year fell short of the structural overhaul many experts believe is needed to protect us.
Even as it issues conservation notices, the Electricity Reliability Council of Texas – or ERCOT – continues to assert that the grid is stable. Naturally, some Texans fear another catastrophe on the scale of the 2021 freeze, when we briefly risked losing electricity for months. They wonder if this problem will ever get fixed. Sadly, experts predict more pain unless politicians confront reality and tackle structural grid problems in earnest.

We hope ERCOT's predictions of stability this summer are accurate, but recent events don't inspire confidence. The Texas Tribune reported last week that ERCOT, which manages the grid, canceled crucial spring repairs at at least one power plant on May 12 and required it keep producing electricity through the unseasonably hot weather. The plant broke down under the strain, as did five others that were asked to postpone maintenance. An ERCOT spokesperson denied that maintenance delays caused the failures, but power plant officials said they know better.
Texas will make a great third world country when they secede.
Until they're annexed by mexico.

If they agree to build a new wall they may get Trump's approval.
The my would definitely get Mexico's approval...

I bet they're wishing there was a wall right about now seeing how things are going here
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,831
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
It’s been almost a year since Gov. Greg Abbott proclaimed that he and state lawmakers did “everything that needed to be done” to prevent electricity blackouts like the one that left hundreds of Texans dead and millions more shivering in the dark for days during a brutal freeze in 2021.

But as temperatures soared toward triple digits this month and the Texas grid manager twice resorted to urging conservation measures normally reserved for summer, Abbott’s boast appeared to be little more than hot air. The conservation warnings had some Texans bracing for the worst, and it's easy to understand why. The grid reform bill Abbott signed last year fell short of the structural overhaul many experts believe is needed to protect us.
Even as it issues conservation notices, the Electricity Reliability Council of Texas – or ERCOT – continues to assert that the grid is stable. Naturally, some Texans fear another catastrophe on the scale of the 2021 freeze, when we briefly risked losing electricity for months. They wonder if this problem will ever get fixed. Sadly, experts predict more pain unless politicians confront reality and tackle structural grid problems in earnest.

We hope ERCOT's predictions of stability this summer are accurate, but recent events don't inspire confidence. The Texas Tribune reported last week that ERCOT, which manages the grid, canceled crucial spring repairs at at least one power plant on May 12 and required it keep producing electricity through the unseasonably hot weather. The plant broke down under the strain, as did five others that were asked to postpone maintenance. An ERCOT spokesperson denied that maintenance delays caused the failures, but power plant officials said they know better.
Texas will make a great third world country when they secede.
Blackouts are an inevitable result of ‘for profit’ electricity supply systems.

The cost of reliability increases dramatically at the top end; it’s VASTLY more expensive to have a grid with blackouts once a decade than it is to have a grid with blackouts once a year. Similarly, it’s VASTLY more expensive to have a grid that can recover from a blackout condition when one does arise in minutes, than it is to have one that takes hours to recover, or one that takes days.

A socialist system, that is mandated to provide reliable infrastructure despite that sometimes costing more than it can reasonably earn, is always going to be less prone to blackouts than a capitalistic system that requires profitability even where that implies occasional outages.

Infrastructure isn’t supposed to be profitable; its job is to support the existence of other, profitable, businesses. Infrastructure is supposed to be reliable.

Electricity grids are infrastructure. They aren’t, and cannot be made to be, profitable businesses. You can hive off bits of the system as profit centres, but ultimately that just makes the rest of the system more expensive and less reliable.

One of the key differences between the developed and developing world is the reliability and availability of infrastructure.

Congolese entrepreneurs aren’t too stupid, idle, or ignorant to set up profitable and efficient businesses; They lack the reliable infrastructure to make such businesses viable.

Texan entrepreneurs have been spoiled for so long by the presence of reliable infrastructure that they fail to notice its existence, (much less the importance to their ventures of supporting it through their taxes) until it’s suddenly not there anymore.
 

Tigers!

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
3,285
Location
On the wing, waiting for a kick.
Basic Beliefs
Bible believing revelational redemptionist (Baptist)
Blackouts are an inevitable result of ‘for profit’ electricity supply systems.
I wonder.
I remember all too clearly in the 70s & 80s the blackouts that occurred in Victoria during the days of the SECV (State Electricity Commission Victoria), a not-for-profit government commission.
Both forms (state owned or private) electricity grids will have blackouts. The questions are how many, how often, how long, how widespread?
Under the SECV the blackouts were infrequent, went for a long time and were widespread. Under the privatised model now in operation blackouts seem to be more frequent, shorter and far more localised.
How to measure? Blackouts minutes/year/area?
Other metrics? Which is the best measure?
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,831
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
The questions are how many, how often, how long, how widespread?
The answer is “how much are you prepared to pay?”

In a private for profit company, the answer is always “as little as we can get away with”.

In a government owned utility, the answer is “as little as the voters will tolerate”.

The difference being that, as retail electricity is a natural monopoly (people don’t want and won’t pay for multiple parallel grids with several sets of redundant cabling to each property), a “for profit” company only has to answer to their shareholders, who may well not be their customers - the customers can’t go elsewhere, and don’t have a say. The government run utility has to answer to the voters, who are typically also the customers.

Of course, you can end up with blackouts in either system, if it’s poorly run. But a “for profit” system has a certain level of blackouts built in as an inevitable result of cost minimisation, in an environment where profits come ahead of service provision.

If the company is sufficiently tightly regulated as to put service provision ahead of profit, then it is just a government utility with extra steps (and those extra steps are typically exploited to funnel public cash into the pockets of the mates of the people in government).

It’s noticeable that large, private, for profit companies are almost invariably run as centrally planned economic units under the control of a politburo board of directors. That’s because that system of governance is the one that actually works, for organisations with a narrow focus.
 

Cheerful Charlie

Contributor
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
6,973
Location
Houston, Texas
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
So, we need to seriously send in the national guard with the army corps of engineers, else expect the electric company to fix things (they are the ones who turned it off on purpose), and get power back on.

None of Texas was built for this shit.

This is a crisis, and the Texas government is dropping the ball. There has been no power for quite some time now. People are dying and something needs to be done about this.

Biden has gotten his first natural disaster with a human cost. Let's see how he handles it.

The Texas power grid does not connect outside of Texas. Long ago, Texas went this route to make sure Texas was not In any way affected by the Federal government, or it's laws and regulations. Biden can do very little relalistically. By design. Texas has been run for decades by the GOP. George "The Shrub" Bush, Rick "Dumbass" Perry, and Greg "The Incomptent" Abbott. This whole Jujuflop Situation did not happen suddenly. It was years in the making. The most Biden could realistically do is to come down to Texas to bitch slap Abbott.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
12,453
Gender
Androgyne; they/them
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
So, we need to seriously send in the national guard with the army corps of engineers, else expect the electric company to fix things (they are the ones who turned it off on purpose), and get power back on.

None of Texas was built for this shit.

This is a crisis, and the Texas government is dropping the ball. There has been no power for quite some time now. People are dying and something needs to be done about this.

Biden has gotten his first natural disaster with a human cost. Let's see how he handles it.

The Texas power grid does not connect outside of Texas. Long ago, Texas went this route to make sure Texas was not In any way affected by the Federal government, or it's laws and regulations. Biden can do very little relalistically. By design. Texas has been run for decades by the GOP. George "The Shrub" Bush, Rick "Dumbass" Perry, and Greg "The Incomptent" Abbott. This whole Jujuflop Situation did not happen suddenly. It was years in the making. The most Biden could realistically do is to come down to Texas to bitch slap Abbott.
In the original viewpoint, I was thinking the Army Corps of Engineers could do as had been done elsewhere and they could move a large number of generators from army bases where they see regular PMCS and not much else, to Texas, and have communities where people needed heat reconnected to temporary support.

Even a few days of some generator support might have made the difference for many of those hundreds who died.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
37,543
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
The cost of reliability increases dramatically at the top end; it’s VASTLY more expensive to have a grid with blackouts once a decade than it is to have a grid with blackouts once a year. Similarly, it’s VASTLY more expensive to have a grid that can recover from a blackout condition when one does arise in minutes, than it is to have one that takes hours to recover, or one that takes days.

A socialist system, that is mandated to provide reliable infrastructure despite that sometimes costing more than it can reasonably earn, is always going to be less prone to blackouts than a capitalistic system that requires profitability even where that implies occasional outages.
This. Reliability is expensive. We see it in the Texas utilities. We see it with some old, cheap drugs: The government forces the price as low as possible (they can with something mostly paid by Medicaid) and when the supply chain hiccups the patients are left to suffer. Look at what has happened with Abbott--some contaminated packaging (no contaminated product was ever found) shut down a factory and we have a big hiccup in specialty baby formula and some other products they produce.
 

Tigers!

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
3,285
Location
On the wing, waiting for a kick.
Basic Beliefs
Bible believing revelational redemptionist (Baptist)
The cost of reliability increases dramatically at the top end; it’s VASTLY more expensive to have a grid with blackouts once a decade than it is to have a grid with blackouts once a year. Similarly, it’s VASTLY more expensive to have a grid that can recover from a blackout condition when one does arise in minutes, than it is to have one that takes hours to recover, or one that takes days.

A socialist system, that is mandated to provide reliable infrastructure despite that sometimes costing more than it can reasonably earn, is always going to be less prone to blackouts than a capitalistic system that requires profitability even where that implies occasional outages.
This. Reliability is expensive. We see it in the Texas utilities. We see it with some old, cheap drugs: The government forces the price as low as possible (they can with something mostly paid by Medicaid) and when the supply chain hiccups the patients are left to suffer. Look at what has happened with Abbott--some contaminated packaging (no contaminated product was ever found) shut down a factory and we have a big hiccup in specialty baby formula and some other products they produce.
Have they restarted production at that baby formula factory? It was good for an Aust. company as they had their greatest ever imports to the USA.
I was surprised to learn that production at just one factory stopping could cause so little formula to be available in the whole of the USA.
 

laughing dog

Contributor
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
21,938
Location
Minnesota
Gender
IT
Basic Beliefs
Dogs rule
Texas has been in crisis for decades because of their "culture" This crisis will continue as long as their "culture" remains unchanged.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
38,443
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
The cost of reliability increases dramatically at the top end; it’s VASTLY more expensive to have a grid with blackouts once a decade than it is to have a grid with blackouts once a year. Similarly, it’s VASTLY more expensive to have a grid that can recover from a blackout condition when one does arise in minutes, than it is to have one that takes hours to recover, or one that takes days.

A socialist system, that is mandated to provide reliable infrastructure despite that sometimes costing more than it can reasonably earn, is always going to be less prone to blackouts than a capitalistic system that requires profitability even where that implies occasional outages.
This. Reliability is expensive. We see it in the Texas utilities. We see it with some old, cheap drugs: The government forces the price as low as possible (they can with something mostly paid by Medicaid) and when the supply chain hiccups the patients are left to suffer. Look at what has happened with Abbott--some contaminated packaging (no contaminated product was ever found) shut down a factory and we have a big hiccup in specialty baby formula and some other products they produce.
Have they restarted production at that baby formula factory? It was good for an Aust. company as they had their greatest ever imports to the USA.
I was surprised to learn that production at just one factory stopping could cause so little formula to be available in the whole of the USA.
Consolidation makes us stronger... it eliminates jobs, puts production at great risk, saves the shareholders money. The chances of a baby formula manufacturer being unable to produce their product are so slim that, even when it happens, nothing will change, because consolidation makes us stronger!
 

Gospel

Unify Africa
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
3,791
Location
Florida
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic
Texas has been in crisis for decades because of their "culture" This crisis will continue as long as their "culture" remains unchanged.

Would that "culture" happen to include old cowboys wearing another man's hat chanting make America horseback ride again while barreling down the road in an F150?
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
37,543
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Have they restarted production at that baby formula factory? It was good for an Aust. company as they had their greatest ever imports to the USA.
I was surprised to learn that production at just one factory stopping could cause so little formula to be available in the whole of the USA.

The problem wasn't so much a matter of so little formula, but the usual hoarding shock that happens any time the supply glitches. Combine that with exclusive-provider contracts that a lot of states have about baby formula for aid for the poor and even if there was formula you might not be able to buy it.

Worse, however, was the other side of their production: They are AFIAK the sole source worldwide for a lot of specialty stuff for people with highly restricted diets.
 
Top Bottom