The Atheist Preacher

[ideologyhunter]

Nope. Just decided to do some preachin'.

 

[steve_bank]

A real preacher is someone who understands human nature and social dynamics, using biblical references to make points with his comigration on n issue. Refernces are used to help people. At the precrural social level inconsistencies in the bible do not matter.

I read a book pf MLKs sermons. An educated man who used the pulpit to make a moral case with the bible as a talking point.

Black Christians have always used biblical metaphors to frame their hopes and suffering.

A secular preacher is a moral philosopher. Ancient Greek philosophers had schools and follower's. Today one can choose between any number of the old moral philosophi

Preachers use insight and understanding of human nature to manipulate people all the time. C.S. Lewis was arguably one of the most insightful thinkers into human nature, and he wrote some amazing stuff to inspire people to look within themselves and see that evil begins with small, ordinary human tendencies, but then he took that power and twisted people right back into a stunted, nonsensical and inhumane ideology identity after all.

I listened to a sermon recently where the pastor used a good understanding of human nature, particularly Jung's work, to do exactly the same thing. One of the main concepts he talked about was guilt. Yet the entire sermon rested on the unspoken assumption that everyone's guilty. Mainstream psychology and ordinary observation show us clearly that human beings can easily be manipulated into feeling guilt and shame when they've done nothing whatsoever to justify it. So why couldn't this pastor teach his congregation that? Why not teach them to protect themselves against manipulators who would use that human tendency to harm or control them? Well, I think we all know damn well why not. Because if they understand how they can be manipulated through shame and guilt, they would see the Christian guilt/shame manipulation for what it is. Too much of that and pastors would not have congregations looking to them for spiritual guidance, and fewer people would be manipulated into the identity group.

Ask any pastor or religious teacher about how cruel and inhumane it is to shame innocent children into self loathing and they will agree. But find one who teaches his congregation how to protect themselves against such manipulation if you can. What you'll get is a flood of justifications for NOT teaching their flocks how to protect themselves against the manipulation of shame and guilt.

You are presuming all Christian preachers are corrupt with malintent. There are many self appointed preachers who have no education or insight but understand they can use the words to manipulate and profit.

There has been a host of non religious leaders starting in the 60s who created alternatives for profit. Timothy Leary promoted LSD as a cure for the world's problems and profited. He was living in a mansion in New York. The Rolling Stones got rich promoting a bogus counter culture they did not really live. Bob Dylan was a fraud, a showman not a prophet.

You can not just single out Christianity.

Today Hollywood and music has far more influence than religion.

 

[Angry Floof]

A real preacher is someone who understands human nature and social dynamics, using biblical references to make points with his comigration on n issue. Refernces are used to help people. At the precrural social level inconsistencies in the bible do not matter.

I read a book pf MLKs sermons. An educated man who used the pulpit to make a moral case with the bible as a talking point.

Black Christians have always used biblical metaphors to frame their hopes and suffering.

A secular preacher is a moral philosopher. Ancient Greek philosophers had schools and follower's. Today one can choose between any number of the old moral philosophi

Preachers use insight and understanding of human nature to manipulate people all the time. C.S. Lewis was arguably one of the most insightful thinkers into human nature, and he wrote some amazing stuff to inspire people to look within themselves and see that evil begins with small, ordinary human tendencies, but then he took that power and twisted people right back into a stunted, nonsensical and inhumane ideology identity after all.

I listened to a sermon recently where the pastor used a good understanding of human nature, particularly Jung's work, to do exactly the same thing. One of the main concepts he talked about was guilt. Yet the entire sermon rested on the unspoken assumption that everyone's guilty. Mainstream psychology and ordinary observation show us clearly that human beings can easily be manipulated into feeling guilt and shame when they've done nothing whatsoever to justify it. So why couldn't this pastor teach his congregation that? Why not teach them to protect themselves against manipulators who would use that human tendency to harm or control them? Well, I think we all know damn well why not. Because if they understand how they can be manipulated through shame and guilt, they would see the Christian guilt/shame manipulation for what it is. Too much of that and pastors would not have congregations looking to them for spiritual guidance, and fewer people would be manipulated into the identity group.

Ask any pastor or religious teacher about how cruel and inhumane it is to shame innocent children into self loathing and they will agree. But find one who teaches his congregation how to protect themselves against such manipulation if you can. What you'll get is a flood of justifications for NOT teaching their flocks how to protect themselves against the manipulation of shame and guilt.

You are presuming all Christian preachers are corrupt with malintent. There are many self appointed preachers who have no education or insight but understand they can use the words to manipulate and profit.

There has been a host of non religious leaders starting in the 60s who created alternatives for profit. Timothy Leary promoted LSD as a cure for the world's problems and profited. He was living in a mansion in New York. The Rolling Stones got rich promoting a bogus counter culture they did not really live. Bob Dylan was a fraud, a showman not a prophet.

You can not just single out Christianity.

Today Hollywood and music has far more influence than religion.

I'm presuming nothing of the sort. I'm talking about how group identity and social influence affect people's behavior and world view, regardless of what individuals are telling themselves about what they believe and do. Malintent or not, even when the consequences of certain teachings are pointed out to the preachers who spread them, such as I described regarding shame, they will likely react with justifications for their shaming rather than allowing themselves to believe they were even innocently perpetuating abusive teachings.

That's how evil works. It's so easy (and lazy) to talk about the blatant, shocking instances of wrongdoing that any moron can point to and describe as wrong, but some of the worst acts began as just some otherwise once decent person believing something stupid and then going down the rabbit hole of self justification and hiding their mistake rather than changing their mind on something they teach and just admitting they were wrong.

Pastors who would never have the slightest tendency to hurt a child nevertheless contribute to and perpetuate an ideological culture where such predators can thrive. I don't give a shit if they may be otherwise decent people. Ignorance doesn't mean innocence and I'm calling that shit out.

 

[steve_bank]

You are presuming all Christian preachers are corrupt with malintent. There are many self appointed preachers who have no education or insight but understand they can use the words to manipulate and profit.

There has been a host of non religious leaders starting in the 60s who created alternatives for profit. Timothy Leary promoted LSD as a cure for the world's problems and profited. He was living in a mansion in New York. The Rolling Stones got rich promoting a bogus counter culture they did not really live. Bob Dylan was a fraud, a showman not a prophet.

You can not just single out Christianity.

Today Hollywood and music has far more influence than religion.

I'm presuming nothing of the sort. I'm talking about how group identity and social influence affect people's behavior and world view, regardless of what individuals are telling themselves about what they believe and do. Malintent or not, even when the consequences of certain teachings are pointed out to the preachers who spread them, such as I described regarding shame, they will likely react with justifications for their shaming rather than allowing themselves to believe they were even innocently perpetuating abusive teachings.

That's how evil works. It's so easy (and lazy) to talk about the blatant, shocking instances of wrongdoing that any moron can point to and describe as wrong, but some of the worst acts began as just some otherwise once decent person believing something stupid and then going down the rabbit hole of self justification and hiding their mistake rather than changing their mind on something they teach and just admitting they were wrong.

Pastors who would never have the slightest tendency to hurt a child nevertheless contribute to and perpetuate an ideological culture where such predators can thrive. I don't give a shit if they may be otherwise decent people. Ignorance doesn't mean innocence and I'm calling that shit out.

That is true but not profound. We all know about identities. People who like a band form groups and wear T shirts with the name on it. The old Dead Heads followed the Grateful Dead concerts around the country and the world.

When I was a kid I had a lousy family environment. When I put on a uniform and went to a Boy Scout meeting I felt good, it gave me a positive self image I did not get at home.

A kid in a refugee camp in Syria with no hope is recruited by extremists. They give him and identity and positive feedback. The kid is hooked.

Region does give people hope, meaning, identity, and purpose. That is what religion does. Like any human social group it can be used for good or bad. To me all human social groups have the same social dynamics. Acquisition of power from unions to politics to religious groups. The big one being the RCC and the Vatican power elite. Corruption, palace intrigue, and politics. Roman in RCC stands for the fact it is modeldom on old Rome.

 

[Angry Floof]

You are presuming all Christian preachers are corrupt with malintent. There are many self appointed preachers who have no education or insight but understand they can use the words to manipulate and profit.

There has been a host of non religious leaders starting in the 60s who created alternatives for profit. Timothy Leary promoted LSD as a cure for the world's problems and profited. He was living in a mansion in New York. The Rolling Stones got rich promoting a bogus counter culture they did not really live. Bob Dylan was a fraud, a showman not a prophet.

You can not just single out Christianity.

Today Hollywood and music has far more influence than religion.

I'm presuming nothing of the sort. I'm talking about how group identity and social influence affect people's behavior and world view, regardless of what individuals are telling themselves about what they believe and do. Malintent or not, even when the consequences of certain teachings are pointed out to the preachers who spread them, such as I described regarding shame, they will likely react with justifications for their shaming rather than allowing themselves to believe they were even innocently perpetuating abusive teachings.

That's how evil works. It's so easy (and lazy) to talk about the blatant, shocking instances of wrongdoing that any moron can point to and describe as wrong, but some of the worst acts began as just some otherwise once decent person believing something stupid and then going down the rabbit hole of self justification and hiding their mistake rather than changing their mind on something they teach and just admitting they were wrong.

Pastors who would never have the slightest tendency to hurt a child nevertheless contribute to and perpetuate an ideological culture where such predators can thrive. I don't give a shit if they may be otherwise decent people. Ignorance doesn't mean innocence and I'm calling that shit out.

That is true but not profound. We all know about identities. People who like a band form groups and wear T shirts with the name on it. The old Dead Heads followed the Grateful Dead concerts around the country and the world.

When I was a kid I had a lousy family environment. When I put on a uniform and went to a Boy Scout meeting I felt good, it gave me a positive self image I did not get at home.

A kid in a refugee camp in Syria with no hope is recruited by extremists. They give him and identity and positive feedback. The kid is hooked.

Region does give people hope, meaning, identity, and purpose. That is what religion does. Like any human social group it can be used for good or bad. To me all human social groups have the same social dynamics. Acquisition of power from unions to politics to religious groups. The big one being the RCC and the Vatican power elite. Corruption, palace intrigue, and politics. Roman in RCC stands for the fact it is modeldom on old Rome.

Real stuff can give people hope and purpose, too. I'm glad that people are happy serving as cancer cells, oblivious to what they contribute to, but yet cancer cells they are.

 

[southernhybrid]

So.....getting back to the atheist preacher....the woman is only using religion as a metaphor. She doesn't believe in any supernatural elements that are usually associated with religion. She is using religion for its cultural significance and to create community. Isn't that real stuff?

I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that when I attend the Atlanta Freethought Society monthly meeting, I feel close to the people in the group, and I receive a happy emotional buzz from being a part of the group. How is that any different from being a part of a church that doesn't believe in the supernatural, but uses the Christian mythology to present lessons about love or morality? I tend to think that most of the people who attend church, feel the same sense of community that I feel when I attend the AFS.

Since I don't know exactly what the atheist preacher says in her sermons, I can't give you any specific examples of how she uses the Christian mythology to create a sermon.

If a specific religion has already become an important part of a culture, why couldn't it remain a part of the culture without taking the myths that created it literally? I understand that some don't see that as realistic, but I personally like the concept, even if it's not realistic to expect it to ever happen on a wide spread basis.

I think I need to watch Joseph Campbell's series, "The Power of Myth" again, to think of some good example of how mythology can be used in a positive way. . Campbell never said if he was an atheist, but he certainly didn't take any religious mythology as anything but mythology.

I doubt humans will ever stop creating mythology. Although I'm not a sci fi fan, I vaguely remember some sci fi movies that I watched decades ago, that included aspects of mythology. Humans like stories and myths as a way to help them navigate life. I've always been a bit amused that sci fi is extremely popular among atheists, despite not being a fan of it myself. Sci fi is a combination of mythology with some science built in to make it seem more realistic. At least that's how I perceive of it. What I'm trying to awkwardly say is that sci fi is an example of the human attraction to stories and myths. That's how I see religion, along with the need or desire for community. I would just like to see religion become more secular and realistic, instead of taking mythological claims as literal ones.

And, I don't consider all preachers to be assholes. Anyone remember a poster named Rev. Joshua that was here around 2002 or so. He was a pastor of an extremely liberal Baptist church in Atlanta. A few of us had the pleasure of meeting him and his wife. We met up at the Atlanta Botanical Gardens and had a lovely time. Joshua's congregation was very diverse. About half of the members were gay. He never once tried to preach to us when we met him. We all just had a nice time together enjoying the gardens. He left the church to return to get his Phd, and then we lost touch with him. For a couple of years, he had a discussion board called, "Thinking Baptists". I was the only female member who was an atheist. There were a couple of fundies on the site and when I was criticized, it was the liberal Baptist ministers who came to my defense. There was a female member who was an extremely liberal Christian. I loved how she deconstructed much of the Christian Bible. But, I digress. I'm just trying to explain how or why I can be a strong atheist but not one who considers all religion to be a negative influence. Religion is like any other invention of humans. It can bring positive experiences to one's life or it can be hateful and tribal.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Since I don't know exactly what the atheist preacher says in her sermons, I can't give you any specific examples of how she uses the Christian mythology to create a sermon.

Should be fairly straightforward.

We can examine the wisdom of Proverbs 25:28

He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

This idea doesn't need to be sponsored by God to understand that you shouldn't open your mouth if you can't say it without screaming it. Maybe liken it to an ALL CAPS tweet from President Bonespurs.

 

[steve_bank]

That is true but not profound. We all know about identities. People who like a band form groups and wear T shirts with the name on it. The old Dead Heads followed the Grateful Dead concerts around the country and the world.

When I was a kid I had a lousy family environment. When I put on a uniform and went to a Boy Scout meeting I felt good, it gave me a positive self image I did not get at home.

A kid in a refugee camp in Syria with no hope is recruited by extremists. They give him and identity and positive feedback. The kid is hooked.

Region does give people hope, meaning, identity, and purpose. That is what religion does. Like any human social group it can be used for good or bad. To me all human social groups have the same social dynamics. Acquisition of power from unions to politics to religious groups. The big one being the RCC and the Vatican power elite. Corruption, palace intrigue, and politics. Roman in RCC stands for the fact it is modeldom on old Rome.

Real stuff can give people hope and purpose, too. I'm glad that people are happy serving as cancer cells, oblivious to what they contribute to, but yet cancer cells they are.

In Star Trek Spock always failed in understanding humans by applying reason and logic. That is because humans are not logical and rational. Logic and reason are only applied in narrow circumstances. Like a physical model in physics. Expecting humans to collectively act objectively and logical I would daresay is unscientific. All the evidence is to the contrary. Religion is but one manifestation of human dynamics.

We all need something to identify with, even if one does not realize it. Video gamers have a group identity. Nobody is above it, I expect it is a genetic survival trait. Philosopher know thyself or something like that.

 

[Angry Floof]

That is true but not profound. We all know about identities. People who like a band form groups and wear T shirts with the name on it. The old Dead Heads followed the Grateful Dead concerts around the country and the world.

When I was a kid I had a lousy family environment. When I put on a uniform and went to a Boy Scout meeting I felt good, it gave me a positive self image I did not get at home.

A kid in a refugee camp in Syria with no hope is recruited by extremists. They give him and identity and positive feedback. The kid is hooked.

Region does give people hope, meaning, identity, and purpose. That is what religion does. Like any human social group it can be used for good or bad. To me all human social groups have the same social dynamics. Acquisition of power from unions to politics to religious groups. The big one being the RCC and the Vatican power elite. Corruption, palace intrigue, and politics. Roman in RCC stands for the fact it is modeldom on old Rome.

Real stuff can give people hope and purpose, too. I'm glad that people are happy serving as cancer cells, oblivious to what they contribute to, but yet cancer cells they are.

In Star Trek Spock always failed in understanding humans by applying reason and logic. That is because humans are not logical and rational. Logic and reason are only applied in narrow circumstances. Like a physical model in physics. Expecting humans to collectively act objectively and logical I would daresay is unscientific. All the evidence is to the contrary. Religion is but one manifestation of human dynamics.

No, religion is not like physics. We don't get to decide how physics work. We CAN and DO decide what we believe about ourselves, our nature, about others, about life in general, about the mysteries and and inexplicabilities of our existence, and we sure as hell have the capacity to examine beliefs to understand how they affect individuals and groups. We are nothing if not adaptable and plastic, molded by our environment and experience, and Christianity offers an environment and experiences that reinforce the worst of human thought and behavior. Education, critical thinking, cooperation, compassion, self awareness, mindfulness, etc., reinforce and cultivate the best of our nature. Why would anyone knowingly choose the former? It's ironic that you'd mention Star Trek in your answer.

This is not rocket science. It's the utmost in lazy and avoidant thinking to say, "Oh, well, that's just how people are. Whaddya gonna do? Don't question the status quo. Don't make waves. You can't really change anything anyway." If Eeyore were a right winger in an Athenian noble's robes, that's how he'd sound. It's also the noise made by abusers and corrupt powers who don't want to change or be held accountable.

Yes, it's human nature to operate as dictated by laziness, prejudice, and animal brain fear. Sure. But it's also human nature to do a hell of a lot better than that. It's astounding how often people are not only willing but insistent on maintaining the lowest bar possible in their expectations of human

As long as they exist without challenge, authoritarian social dominance religions like Christianity and Islam will always breed conflict, violence, subjugation and abuse of women, and will always produce right wing authoritarian followers who enable corrupt power.

We've been over the reasons for this, all the elements of the social and psychological dynamics that give rise to such ideological poison, but I'm happy to do it again. It's a worthwhile discussion. In fact, what we call the Enlightenment, the philosophies and writings that gave rise to the U.S. Constitutions, is just such a discussion. Why would anyone want to go backward from that and shush anyone who questions ideologies of ignorance and fear?

We all need something to identify with, even if one does not realize it. Video gamers have a group identity. Nobody is above it, I expect it is a genetic survival trait. Philosopher know thyself or something like that.

We all need to shit, too. But there's a reason we don't do it in the middle of the street.

Of course we all have group identities. You're right, this is basic to the nature of complex intelligent social mammals. There's no way around that, but there is no need to try to go around it because, as intelligent self aware beings, we just don't have to worship group identity or value it above the well being of people outside the group. Or people inside the group for that matter.

You're also right that group identity is not profound or esoteric or all that complicated, and yet so many people seem unable to grasp what it means or seem even the slightest bit curious about why worshiping their own tribal identity over human well being, justice, reason, kindness, fairness, open heartedness, pretty much anything that makes humanity worth caring about, serves as a cement block on humanity. They have no reason to care about anyone outside their identity group, so as long as it doesn't make them uncomfortable, there's no reason to be a better human and care about the rest of the world.

Don't worry, though. I'm probably the only person in your environment who will ever suggest you might question anything. At least, I hope for your sake nothing happens in your life that would force you to question your comfortable status quo. All those other people who suffer from that status quo are far away and kind of abstract. No need for you to be uncomfortable.

 

[steve_bank]

In Star Trek Spock always failed in understanding humans by applying reason and logic. That is because humans are not logical and rational. Logic and reason are only applied in narrow circumstances. Like a physical model in physics. Expecting humans to collectively act objectively and logical I would daresay is unscientific. All the evidence is to the contrary. Religion is but one manifestation of human dynamics.

No, religion is not like physics. We don't get to decide how physics work. We CAN and DO decide what we believe about ourselves, our nature, about others, about life in general, about the mysteries and and inexplicabilities of our existence, and we sure as hell have the capacity to examine beliefs to understand how they affect individuals and groups. We are nothing if not adaptable and plastic, molded by our environment and experience, and Christianity offers an environment and experiences that reinforce the worst of human thought and behavior. Education, critical thinking, cooperation, compassion, self awareness, mindfulness, etc., reinforce and cultivate the best of our nature. Why would anyone knowingly choose the former? It's ironic that you'd mention Star Trek in your answer.

This is not rocket science. It's the utmost in lazy and avoidant thinking to say, "Oh, well, that's just how people are. Whaddya gonna do? Don't question the status quo. Don't make waves. You can't really change anything anyway." If Eeyore were a right winger in an Athenian noble's robes, that's how he'd sound. It's also the noise made by abusers and corrupt powers who don't want to change or be held accountable.

Yes, it's human nature to operate as dictated by laziness, prejudice, and animal brain fear. Sure. But it's also human nature to do a hell of a lot better than that. It's astounding how often people are not only willing but insistent on maintaining the lowest bar possible in their expectations of human

As long as they exist without challenge, authoritarian social dominance religions like Christianity and Islam will always breed conflict, violence, subjugation and abuse of women, and will always produce right wing authoritarian followers who enable corrupt power.

We've been over the reasons for this, all the elements of the social and psychological dynamics that give rise to such ideological poison, but I'm happy to do it again. It's a worthwhile discussion. In fact, what we call the Enlightenment, the philosophies and writings that gave rise to the U.S. Constitutions, is just such a discussion. Why would anyone want to go backward from that and shush anyone who questions ideologies of ignorance and fear?

We all need something to identify with, even if one does not realize it. Video gamers have a group identity. Nobody is above it, I expect it is a genetic survival trait. Philosopher know thyself or something like that.

We all need to shit, too. But there's a reason we don't do it in the middle of the street.

Of course we all have group identities. You're right, this is basic to the nature of complex intelligent social mammals. There's no way around that, but there is no need to try to go around it because, as intelligent self aware beings, we just don't have to worship group identity or value it above the well being of people outside the group. Or people inside the group for that matter.

You're also right that group identity is not profound or esoteric or all that complicated, and yet so many people seem unable to grasp what it means or seem even the slightest bit curious about why worshiping their own tribal identity over human well being, justice, reason, kindness, fairness, open heartedness, pretty much anything that makes humanity worth caring about, serves as a cement block on humanity. They have no reason to care about anyone outside their identity group, so as long as it doesn't make them uncomfortable, there's no reason to be a better human and care about the rest of the world.

Don't worry, though. I'm probably the only person in your environment who will ever suggest you might question anything. At least, I hope for your sake nothing happens in your life that would force you to question your comfortable status quo. All those other people who suffer from that status quo are far away and kind of abstract. No need for you to be uncomfortable.

I as talking to a Washington state cop once. I asked him about gawkers slowing own highway traffic at an accident even after it is cleared. He said 'you do not understand, individually people are smart collectively they are sheep'.

We all have a herd instinct.

I will just be repeating myself without any new points. If you want to argue humans collectively be logical and rational start a thread on social science.

 

[Angry Floof]

No, religion is not like physics. We don't get to decide how physics work. We CAN and DO decide what we believe about ourselves, our nature, about others, about life in general, about the mysteries and and inexplicabilities of our existence, and we sure as hell have the capacity to examine beliefs to understand how they affect individuals and groups. We are nothing if not adaptable and plastic, molded by our environment and experience, and Christianity offers an environment and experiences that reinforce the worst of human thought and behavior. Education, critical thinking, cooperation, compassion, self awareness, mindfulness, etc., reinforce and cultivate the best of our nature. Why would anyone knowingly choose the former? It's ironic that you'd mention Star Trek in your answer.

This is not rocket science. It's the utmost in lazy and avoidant thinking to say, "Oh, well, that's just how people are. Whaddya gonna do? Don't question the status quo. Don't make waves. You can't really change anything anyway." If Eeyore were a right winger in an Athenian noble's robes, that's how he'd sound. It's also the noise made by abusers and corrupt powers who don't want to change or be held accountable.

Yes, it's human nature to operate as dictated by laziness, prejudice, and animal brain fear. Sure. But it's also human nature to do a hell of a lot better than that. It's astounding how often people are not only willing but insistent on maintaining the lowest bar possible in their expectations of human

As long as they exist without challenge, authoritarian social dominance religions like Christianity and Islam will always breed conflict, violence, subjugation and abuse of women, and will always produce right wing authoritarian followers who enable corrupt power.

We've been over the reasons for this, all the elements of the social and psychological dynamics that give rise to such ideological poison, but I'm happy to do it again. It's a worthwhile discussion. In fact, what we call the Enlightenment, the philosophies and writings that gave rise to the U.S. Constitutions, is just such a discussion. Why would anyone want to go backward from that and shush anyone who questions ideologies of ignorance and fear?



We all need to shit, too. But there's a reason we don't do it in the middle of the street.

Of course we all have group identities. You're right, this is basic to the nature of complex intelligent social mammals. There's no way around that, but there is no need to try to go around it because, as intelligent self aware beings, we just don't have to worship group identity or value it above the well being of people outside the group. Or people inside the group for that matter.

You're also right that group identity is not profound or esoteric or all that complicated, and yet so many people seem unable to grasp what it means or seem even the slightest bit curious about why worshiping their own tribal identity over human well being, justice, reason, kindness, fairness, open heartedness, pretty much anything that makes humanity worth caring about, serves as a cement block on humanity. They have no reason to care about anyone outside their identity group, so as long as it doesn't make them uncomfortable, there's no reason to be a better human and care about the rest of the world.

Don't worry, though. I'm probably the only person in your environment who will ever suggest you might question anything. At least, I hope for your sake nothing happens in your life that would force you to question your comfortable status quo. All those other people who suffer from that status quo are far away and kind of abstract. No need for you to be uncomfortable.

I as talking to a Washington state cop once. I asked him about gawkers slowing own highway traffic at an accident even after it is cleared. He said 'you do not understand, individually people are smart collectively they are sheep'.

We all have a herd instinct.

I will just be repeating myself without any new points. If you want to argue humans collectively be logical and rational start a thread on social science.

True, you only have one point - protect the magical pedestal your favorite social dominance cult sits on at all costs.

If you can understand the sheep aspect of your own human nature, you then have an understanding that can (and will, if you do indeed understand it) change your own way of thinking, your responses to the world around you, and your perceptions of the world around you.

If religious congregations are allowed to understand their own nature, they would not be so easily controlled and their ignorance is what gives power to the abusers among them.

But I hope you do keep trying to throw poop at any questioning of your religious identity and see if anything sticks. It's actually useful for people like me to respond to it all. If this were a conversation between only you and me, I wouldn't bother. But you never know who else is reading. In fact, are you on facebook? I'd love to have these arguments there, too.

 

[southernhybrid]

I don't know. To me, there is a huge difference between a religious group that is extremely liberal, like the UUs and a religious group that literally believes in it's mythology.

I don't think humans are very rational, for the most part, and since I don't think we have free will, or at least not as much free will as we tend to believe, I can understand how a great many people are attracted to religious mythology. That's why I think a secular version of religion could be a very positive thing for those who need religion.

Let me add that I really enjoy sharing our different opinions and wish that all of the discussions here could be always be done without getting personal, even when we disagree with each other.

 

[Angry Floof]

I don't know. To me, there is a huge difference between a religious group that is extremely liberal, like the UUs and a religious group that literally believes in it's mythology.

I don't think humans are very rational, for the most part, and since I don't think we have free will, or at least not as much free will as we tend to believe, I can understand how a great many people are attracted to religious mythology. That's why I think a secular version of religion could be a very positive thing for those who need religion.

Let me add that I really enjoy sharing our different opinions and wish that all of the discussions here could be always be done without getting personal, even when we disagree with each other.

I think a secular version would be more positive than one where people literally believe in supernatural beings and inerrancy of ancient texts. I just don't think it would last very long as secular. There's a lot of mental traps in Christianity. If you're not also teaching that fact itself, it remains full of traps and only needs uncertainty or scarcity in the environment for any manipulator or abuser to turn followers into obedience machines.

And the sad part is that we know quite a lot about our own minds and how we can be fooled and abused. Yet the effort always seems to be toward making sure magical ideologies continue rather than on the human beings such ideologies are supposed to benefit.

 

[steve_bank]

No, religion is not like physics. We don't get to decide how physics work. We CAN and DO decide what we believe about ourselves, our nature, about others, about life in general, about the mysteries and and inexplicabilities of our existence, and we sure as hell have the capacity to examine beliefs to understand how they affect individuals and groups. We are nothing if not adaptable and plastic, molded by our environment and experience, and Christianity offers an environment and experiences that reinforce the worst of human thought and behavior. Education, critical thinking, cooperation, compassion, self awareness, mindfulness, etc., reinforce and cultivate the best of our nature. Why would anyone knowingly choose the former? It's ironic that you'd mention Star Trek in your answer.

This is not rocket science. It's the utmost in lazy and avoidant thinking to say, "Oh, well, that's just how people are. Whaddya gonna do? Don't question the status quo. Don't make waves. You can't really change anything anyway." If Eeyore were a right winger in an Athenian noble's robes, that's how he'd sound. It's also the noise made by abusers and corrupt powers who don't want to change or be held accountable.

Yes, it's human nature to operate as dictated by laziness, prejudice, and animal brain fear. Sure. But it's also human nature to do a hell of a lot better than that. It's astounding how often people are not only willing but insistent on maintaining the lowest bar possible in their expectations of human

As long as they exist without challenge, authoritarian social dominance religions like Christianity and Islam will always breed conflict, violence, subjugation and abuse of women, and will always produce right wing authoritarian followers who enable corrupt power.

We've been over the reasons for this, all the elements of the social and psychological dynamics that give rise to such ideological poison, but I'm happy to do it again. It's a worthwhile discussion. In fact, what we call the Enlightenment, the philosophies and writings that gave rise to the U.S. Constitutions, is just such a discussion. Why would anyone want to go backward from that and shush anyone who questions ideologies of ignorance and fear?



We all need to shit, too. But there's a reason we don't do it in the middle of the street.

Of course we all have group identities. You're right, this is basic to the nature of complex intelligent social mammals. There's no way around that, but there is no need to try to go around it because, as intelligent self aware beings, we just don't have to worship group identity or value it above the well being of people outside the group. Or people inside the group for that matter.

You're also right that group identity is not profound or esoteric or all that complicated, and yet so many people seem unable to grasp what it means or seem even the slightest bit curious about why worshiping their own tribal identity over human well being, justice, reason, kindness, fairness, open heartedness, pretty much anything that makes humanity worth caring about, serves as a cement block on humanity. They have no reason to care about anyone outside their identity group, so as long as it doesn't make them uncomfortable, there's no reason to be a better human and care about the rest of the world.

Don't worry, though. I'm probably the only person in your environment who will ever suggest you might question anything. At least, I hope for your sake nothing happens in your life that would force you to question your comfortable status quo. All those other people who suffer from that status quo are far away and kind of abstract. No need for you to be uncomfortable.

I as talking to a Washington state cop once. I asked him about gawkers slowing own highway traffic at an accident even after it is cleared. He said 'you do not understand, individually people are smart collectively they are sheep'.

We all have a herd instinct.

I will just be repeating myself without any new points. If you want to argue humans collectively be logical and rational start a thread on social science.

True, you only have one point - protect the magical pedestal your favorite social dominance cult sits on at all costs.

If you can understand the sheep aspect of your own human nature, you then have an understanding that can (and will, if you do indeed understand it) change your own way of thinking, your responses to the world around you, and your perceptions of the world around you.

If religious congregations are allowed to understand their own nature, they would not be so easily controlled and their ignorance is what gives power to the abusers among them.

But I hope you do keep trying to throw poop at any questioning of your religious identity and see if anything sticks. It's actually useful for people like me to respond to it all. If this were a conversation between only you and me, I wouldn't bother. But you never know who else is reading. In fact, are you on facebook? I'd love to have these arguments there, too.

Poop you say? How coarse, childish, and unsophisticated. Properly said like an adult it is feces or manure.

My point is you can not isolate and evaluate religion without considering it in the context of all humanity and all of our irrational behavior. Some may think trey are above it, but that is self delusion. Unless like many theists you believe you have an absolute moral high ground.

So now endeth today's sermon by Preacher Steve from hi big white horse. We will now sing the song Rocky Mountain High with great reverence and serenity.

 

[Angry Floof]

True, you only have one point - protect the magical pedestal your favorite social dominance cult sits on at all costs.

If you can understand the sheep aspect of your own human nature, you then have an understanding that can (and will, if you do indeed understand it) change your own way of thinking, your responses to the world around you, and your perceptions of the world around you.

If religious congregations are allowed to understand their own nature, they would not be so easily controlled and their ignorance is what gives power to the abusers among them.

But I hope you do keep trying to throw poop at any questioning of your religious identity and see if anything sticks. It's actually useful for people like me to respond to it all. If this were a conversation between only you and me, I wouldn't bother. But you never know who else is reading. In fact, are you on facebook? I'd love to have these arguments there, too.

Poop you say? How coarse, childish, and unsophisticated. Properly said like an adult it is feces or manure.

My point is you can not isolate and evaluate religion without considering it in the context of all humanity and all of our irrational behavior. Some may think trey are above it, but that is self delusion. Unless like many theists you believe you have an absolute moral high ground.

So now endeth today's sermon by Preacher Steve from hi big white horse. We will now sing the song Rocky Mountain High with great reverence and serenity.

Yeah, and it's not human nature to hold abusers accountable or challenge authority figures who manipulate their captive flocks.

I don't need absolute moral high ground to show that your cowardice and lack of conscience in simply holding humane values and principles is anything but moral. It's an excuse for not holding power accountable. You're just another Jim Jordan. Abuse? What abuse? Oh, that? Pffth. He does that all the time and I'm gonna let him keep doing it. Abuse is fine as long as I don't have to stand up to the abuser.

Again, it's astounding the lengths some people will do to to NOT hold power accountable, to NOT protect the abused and manipulated, even though the knowledge of their behavior is there and means to call them out is there. Truly astounding how social dominance cult mentality can control people and prevent them from doing the right thing.

The preachers and pastors who help create and maintain those environments where abuse thrives may themselves be victims believing religious lies and do not harbor abusive tendencies, but that doesn't mean they are not accountable. It doesn't make them delicate mental patients who should be allowed to continue shitting on the neighbors' porches at night.

Right wing authoritarian religion is arguably the most virulent ideology for inviting, encouraging, and protecting abusers. Yet there is no number of children raped that is suitable for followers to snap out of that sick animal brain drive to protect an abuse ideology.

And yes, oh my goodness. I said the word shit. What a convenient excuse to clutch the pearls and avoid acknowledging the point. Shit, poop, cunt, cock, balls, doodiehead. Get over it.

 

[steve_bank]

True, you only have one point - protect the magical pedestal your favorite social dominance cult sits on at all costs.

If you can understand the sheep aspect of your own human nature, you then have an understanding that can (and will, if you do indeed understand it) change your own way of thinking, your responses to the world around you, and your perceptions of the world around you.

If religious congregations are allowed to understand their own nature, they would not be so easily controlled and their ignorance is what gives power to the abusers among them.

But I hope you do keep trying to throw poop at any questioning of your religious identity and see if anything sticks. It's actually useful for people like me to respond to it all. If this were a conversation between only you and me, I wouldn't bother. But you never know who else is reading. In fact, are you on facebook? I'd love to have these arguments there, too.

Poop you say? How coarse, childish, and unsophisticated. Properly said like an adult it is feces or manure.

My point is you can not isolate and evaluate religion without considering it in the context of all humanity and all of our irrational behavior. Some may think trey are above it, but that is self delusion. Unless like many theists you believe you have an absolute moral high ground.

So now endeth today's sermon by Preacher Steve from hi big white horse. We will now sing the song Rocky Mountain High with great reverence and serenity.

Yeah, and it's not human nature to hold abusers accountable or challenge authority figures who manipulate their captive flocks.

I don't need absolute moral high ground to show that your cowardice and lack of conscience in simply holding humane values and principles is anything but moral. It's an excuse for not holding power accountable. You're just another Jim Jordan. Abuse? What abuse? Oh, that? Pffth. He does that all the time and I'm gonna let him keep doing it. Abuse is fine as long as I don't have to stand up to the abuser.

Again, it's astounding the lengths some people will do to to NOT hold power accountable, to NOT protect the abused and manipulated, even though the knowledge of their behavior is there and means to call them out is there. Truly astounding how social dominance cult mentality can control people and prevent them from doing the right thing.

The preachers and pastors who help create and maintain those environments where abuse thrives may themselves be victims believing religious lies and do not harbor abusive tendencies, but that doesn't mean they are not accountable. It doesn't make them delicate mental patients who should be allowed to continue shitting on the neighbors' porches at night.

Right wing authoritarian religion is arguably the most virulent ideology for inviting, encouraging, and protecting abusers. Yet there is no number of children raped that is suitable for followers to snap out of that sick animal brain drive to protect an abuse ideology.

And yes, oh my goodness. I said the word shit. What a convenient excuse to clutch the pearls and avoid acknowledging the point. Shit, poop, cunt, cock, balls, doodiehead. Get over it.

AMEN BROTHER...Tell it Tell It!

 

[Angry Floof]

Yeah, and it's not human nature to hold abusers accountable or challenge authority figures who manipulate their captive flocks.

I don't need absolute moral high ground to show that your cowardice and lack of conscience in simply holding humane values and principles is anything but moral. It's an excuse for not holding power accountable. You're just another Jim Jordan. Abuse? What abuse? Oh, that? Pffth. He does that all the time and I'm gonna let him keep doing it. Abuse is fine as long as I don't have to stand up to the abuser.

Again, it's astounding the lengths some people will do to to NOT hold power accountable, to NOT protect the abused and manipulated, even though the knowledge of their behavior is there and means to call them out is there. Truly astounding how social dominance cult mentality can control people and prevent them from doing the right thing.

The preachers and pastors who help create and maintain those environments where abuse thrives may themselves be victims believing religious lies and do not harbor abusive tendencies, but that doesn't mean they are not accountable. It doesn't make them delicate mental patients who should be allowed to continue shitting on the neighbors' porches at night.

Right wing authoritarian religion is arguably the most virulent ideology for inviting, encouraging, and protecting abusers. Yet there is no number of children raped that is suitable for followers to snap out of that sick animal brain drive to protect an abuse ideology.

And yes, oh my goodness. I said the word shit. What a convenient excuse to clutch the pearls and avoid acknowledging the point. Shit, poop, cunt, cock, balls, doodiehead. Get over it.

AMEN BROTHER...Tell it Tell It!

Try to twist what I'm saying any way you want, but you demonstrate clearly that you choose to protect the lowest, laziest, and stupidest of human thought while actively arguing against the idea that we can do better. You either do not hold humane, intelligent principles or you choose to keep them hidden in favor of protecting abusive ideology on this board.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Warning: thread drift ahead

Anyone remember a poster named Rev. Joshua that was here around 2002 or so. He was a pastor of an extremely liberal Baptist church in Atlanta. A few of us had the pleasure of meeting him and his wife. We met up at the Atlanta Botanical Gardens and had a lovely time. Joshua's congregation was very diverse. About half of the members were gay. He never once tried to preach to us when we met him. We all just had a nice time together enjoying the gardens. He left the church to return to get his Phd, and then we lost touch with him. For a couple of years, he had a discussion board called, "Thinking Baptists". I was the only female member who was an atheist. There were a couple of fundies on the site and when I was criticized, it was the liberal Baptist ministers who came to my defense.

Yes, I loved Reverend Joshua and Thinking Baptists. He and I shared a love of Bach's contributions to religious music, and neither of us was a fan of the 7-11 choruses. He was a truly caring, compassionate minister. I lost touch with him after the forum closed down.

There was a female member who was an extremely liberal Christian. I loved how she deconstructed much of the Christian Bible.

You have to be talking about Jane. She was one of the most intelligent forum members there. I loved her wit. And I even have a personally autographed copy of the book she wrote (The Nature of Grace). Sadly, I lost touch with her too after the forum closed.

Ruth

 

[Angry Floof]

A secular version of Christianity is indeed better, but Christianity is still Christianity. A secular version of the Ferengi worship of money and profit is certainly better without a literal supernatural being at the center of it, but it's still Ferengi worship of money and profit. Christianity still sucks. It still does not reflect or inspire the best of human nature. It still does not offer modern humans relevant symbols or useful ideas about how to move forward as a connected tribe of seven billion. It's only still in existence at all because it does have all the social and psychological mechanisms to hijack human minds.

 

[southernhybrid]

Well, alright then. I really had hoped we could discuss this without attacking each other. My bad.

I was discussing this topic with a friend last night who, let's say is a much more strident atheist than I am. We mildly disagreed but then we gave each other a hug. So, cyber hugs to those who don't agree with me.

In the words of Rodney King, "can't we all just get along"....... I know. I guess that's wishful thinking, sort of like religion.