The bakers and the lesbians--what really happened

[Ford]

I know, right? Since what these lesbians are trying to impose upon bakers is exactly like what the Nazis did to the Jews!

OK, another analogy:

How about a birthday cake for Mao Tse Tung? Mao murdered many more millions of humans than Hitler did. So, should an anti-communist baker be required to provide a birthday cake for a Mao Tse-Tung birthday party?

I get it. You think gays and lesbians are mass murderers. Dictators who establish horrible regimes and kill millions.


And by your "logic," Christians who make festive cakes are victims of that horrible genocidal gay rage.



Am I missing something here?

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

So yes, a Cuban refugee baker should be free to refuse to provide a Fidel Castro birthday cake. OK, how about this . . .

OK, another analogy:

How about a birthday cake for Mao Tse Tung? Mao murdered many more millions of humans than Hitler did. So, should an anti-communist baker be required to provide a birthday cake for a Mao Tse-Tung birthday party?

I get it. You think gays and lesbians are mass murderers. Dictators who establish horrible regimes and kill millions.


And by your "logic," Christians who make festive cakes are victims of that horrible genocidal gay rage.


Am I missing something here?

Yes, you're not answering whether an atheist baker should be required to provide a birthday cake for a Billy Graham birthday party, showing a nativity scene that offends the atheist baker.

If he finds it offensive, should he still be required to provide that nativity scene with the chocolate shepherds etc.?

Yes or no?

And the other examples which were not about mass murderers. Junipero Serra, Robert E. Lee -- there are people who find these celebrated "heroes" offensive and might not want to contribute to a birthday celebration for them. So, should a baker who is offended at these controversial historical figures be free to refuse service to someone wanting such a birthday cake for their party?

Or, what if it's a wedding cake for an Arab sheik or Hindu Swami marrying a 7-year-old girl. (Suppose the wedding is being held in an embassy where they have diplomatic immunity and so the event is legal.) Or it's a commemoration of a wedding being held back in their home country. And the cake is to have figurines of an old man and the young girl. If the baker finds it offensive and objects, should he still be required to provide it to them?

You want the state to dictate to bakers that they must serve any customer and any event, no matter how offensive it is to them (except for mass murderers only, in which case they may refuse)?

Suppose the baker is an environmentalist and animal-rights activist, and is being asked to provide a cake for a party of whalers celebrating their 100th catch. Or to a party for a CEO who is being honored because his company clear-cutted a record number of pristine Brazilian rainforest trees. Should this environmentalist baker be required to serve these celebrations he disagrees with?

 

[Ford]

Yes or no?

Why is everyone so hung up on fucking cakes?


Is this really the most pressing issue facing society?


I understand that you think gays and lesbians are succubi waiting to kill us all and offer our souls to Satan as tribute, but that aside, are you fucking kidding me?

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Should a Jewish baker be required to provide a cake to a Neo-Nazi birthday party for Adolf Hitler?

Yes.

With swastika symbol and "Happy Birthday, Adolf!" lettering?

And "Sieg Heil!" lettering and a figurine of Adolf delivering the Nazi salute?

No.

If they sell cakes to the public, members of the public should be able to buy those cakes without prejudice. That doesn't mean customers get to dictate a store's product or service offering arbitrarily. Unless that bakery offers Hitler-themed cakes, there's little discriminatory in refusing to provide a product you do not provide to anyone.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Should a Jewish baker be required to provide a cake to a Neo-Nazi birthday party for Adolf Hitler?

With swastika symbol and "Happy Birthday, Adolf!" lettering?

And "Sieg Heil!" lettering and a figurine of Adolf delivering the Nazi salute?

No. But as long as the customer does nothing to disclose what the product is to be used for, the vendor should be required to sell it with no questions asked.

Are we equating gay marriage with fascism, genocide, and tyranny?

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

What is supposed to be scary or indecent in this picture?

It sounds like they went out of business because they were a lousy business and could not attract customers, which is why they couldn't pay their legal fees. If I walked into a B&B and saw the scene below, I'd be scared of leaving there alive.

Maybe part of that loss of business is due to decent people not wanting to give indecent people their business.

What's "indecent" about the business in the above picture? What is it about the scene that would cause you to be "scared"?

Basically what you're saying is that only pretty faces should be allowed to serve customers at the front desk. Replace that not-so-pretty face with a young sexy one, and your comment makes no sense.

It wasn't her face that he was talking about

Then what was he talking about? What is it that's "indecent" about the scene, or should cause someone to be "scared"?

 

[Ford]

Should a Jewish baker be required to provide a cake to a Neo-Nazi birthday party for Adolf Hitler?

With swastika symbol and "Happy Birthday, Adolf!" lettering?

And "Sieg Heil!" lettering and a figurine of Adolf delivering the Nazi salute?

No. But as long as the customer does nothing to disclose what the product is to be used for, the vendor should be required to sell it with no questions asked.

Are we equating gay marriage with fascism, genocide, and tyranny?

Apparently, gay marriage is far, far worse.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

The ones suing the baker are the ones who are "hung up on fucking cakes."

Yes or no?

Why is everyone so hung up on fucking cakes?


Is this really the most pressing issue facing society?

OK, so you agree that a baker should not be required to provide a gay wedding cake or a Christmas cake with a nativity scene or anything else the baker might not agree with. And those bringing a lawsuit like this should stop being hung up on such fucking nonsense and demanding approval and endorsement from everyone else, and instead just mind their own business and leave others alone to do the same.

 

[Ford]

Why is everyone so hung up on fucking cakes?


Is this really the most pressing issue facing society?

OK, so you agree that a baker should not be required to provide a gay wedding cake or a Christmas cake with a nativity scene or anything else the baker might not agree with. And those bringing a lawsuit like this should stop being hung up on such fucking nonsense and demanding approval and endorsement from everyone else, and instead just mind their own business and leave others alone to do the same.

No, I just disagree with your premise that delivering a gay wedding cake is equivalent to murdering 20 million people in a genocidal rage.

 

[RavenSky]

Why is everyone so hung up on fucking cakes?


Is this really the most pressing issue facing society?

OK, so you agree that a baker should not be required to provide a gay wedding cake or a Christmas cake with a nativity scene or anything else the baker might not agree with. And those bringing a lawsuit like this should stop being hung up on such fucking nonsense and demanding approval and endorsement from everyone else, and instead just mind their own business and leave others alone to do the same.

What is a "gay wedding cake" and how does it differ from any other wedding cake?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

OK, so you agree that a baker should not be required to provide a gay wedding cake or a Christmas cake with a nativity scene or anything else the baker might not agree with. And those bringing a lawsuit like this should stop being hung up on such fucking nonsense and demanding approval and endorsement from everyone else, and instead just mind their own business and leave others alone to do the same.

What is a "gay wedding cake" and how does it differ from any other wedding cake?

I think gay wedding cakes are a lot harder to put together. You see, a heterosexual wedding cake is made of wet and dry ingredients. A gay wedding cake is made entirely of wet or dry ingredients, never both! That isn't an easy cake to pull off.

 

[Ford]

OK, so you agree that a baker should not be required to provide a gay wedding cake or a Christmas cake with a nativity scene or anything else the baker might not agree with. And those bringing a lawsuit like this should stop being hung up on such fucking nonsense and demanding approval and endorsement from everyone else, and instead just mind their own business and leave others alone to do the same.

What is a "gay wedding cake" and how does it differ from any other wedding cake?

Well for starters, it is gay.

 

[Cerberus]

Would it really be beyond the wit of man (or in this case woman) to order the bloody cake from the bakery, but buy their own 'topping' separately? I often wonder how much this kind of thing is either agenda-driven attention-seeking, or a mischievous attempt to extract money from perceived 'bigots': there was a case like that here two or three years ago, where a couple of male homosexuals scammed a couple of bed-and-breakfast owners into bankruptcy.

Whether it is beyond the wit of the customer is irrelevant: the bakery violated Oregon law.

I was merely suggesting a way where it wouldn't have violated it! You know, the 'c' word, which fascistic zealots - especially gays - don't like . . . 'compromise'?

 

[Cerberus]

Would it really be beyond the wit of man (or in this case newbie) to be familiar with the actual facts of the case before spouting off on a message board and spreading the ignorance?

As to the case, I too often wonder how much this kind of thing is either agenda-driven attention-seeking or just blatant hateful bigotry, but of course I am referring to the bakery owners. They are the ones who publicized the case. They are the ones who released the names AND ADDRESS of the couple, thereby exposing the couple and their children to harrassment and death threats. The bakers are the ones who sought out right wing hate groups in an agenda-driven attention-seeking attempt to get their 15 minutes of fame for their admitted bigotry.

And to be crystal clear, this was not ever, in any way, a case about a cake-topper. The baker asked for the names of the bride and groom for his paperwork (not for the cake), but when he heard the names of two women he called their family an "abomination" and misquoted bible passages at one of the women and her mother.

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovemen...ng_you_heard_on_the_sweet_cakes_case_is_false

there was a case like that here two or three years ago, where a couple of male homosexuals scammed a couple of bed-and-breakfast owners into bankruptcy.

Given how badly you mangled the fact of the case in this thread, I am sure you will understand why I doubt the veracity of your claim about the B&B and require a link to detailed source about that alleged case.

Here, chew on this

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...owners-refused-gay-couple-close-business.html

Oh, and the fact that I'm 'a newbie' doesn't mean I'm a fool!

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Whether it is beyond the wit of the customer is irrelevant: the bakery violated Oregon law.

I was merely suggesting a way where it wouldn't have violated it! You know, the 'c' word, which fascistic zealots - especially gays - don't like . . . 'compromise'?

It wasn't relevant. The cake was refused when the bakers discovered the two women requesting it were requesting it for two brides.* As far as we know, decorations never even entered into it; the bakery wouldn't make a cake for their ceremony, period.

You're operating on assumption, and not only that, but jumping to conclusions which absurdly victimize bigots asking for compromise which the bakers would not provide, not the lesbian couple in question. Somehow this leads you to the conclusion that gay people (some gay people or all gay people) are especially uncompromising of all the fascistic zealots out there despite the fact that the reason discrimination against LGBT people is highlighted in modern culture is because the abuses LGBT people faced historically were so pervasive and severe.

Admittedly, I'm going off second-hand accounts of what transpired at the bakery. I wasn't there; I don't know.for certain. If you have facts contrary to what I stated -- that the bakery refused service based on the wedding being a same-sex wedding (after having asked the name of the bride and groom and finding out it would be two brides), I suggest next time you lead off with such facts. If you have no such facts, maybe give your posts a little more thought first.

*I see that ground has already been covered in another post, but a little redundancy doesn't hurt.

 

[Cerberus]

I was merely suggesting a way where it wouldn't have violated it! You know, the 'c' word, which fascistic zealots - especially gays - don't like . . . 'compromise'?

It wasn't relevant. The cake was refused when the bakers discovered the two women requesting it were requesting it for two brides. As far as we know, decorations never even entered into it; the bakery wouldn't make a cake for their ceremony, period.

You're operating on assumption, and not only that, but jumping to conclusions which absurdly victimize bigots asking for compromise which the bakers would not provide, not the lesbian couple in question. Somehow this leads you to the conclusion that gay people (some gay people or all gay people) are especially uncompromising of all the fascistic zealots out there despite the fact that the reason discrimination against LGBT people is highlighted in modern culture is because the abuses LGBT people faced historically were so pervasive and severe.

Admittedly, I'm going off second-hand events of what transpired at the bakery. I wasn't there; I don't know.for certain. If you have facts contrary to what I stated -- that the bakery refused service based on the wedding being a same-sex wedding (after having asked the name of the bride and groom and finding out it would be two brides), I suggest next time you lead off with such facts. If you have no such facts, maybe give your posts a little more thought first.

It's possible there might be subtleties here, and if so begs the question as to why the customers needed to explain that the cake was for two lesbians. For example, if they'd just gone into the shop and ordered 'a wedding cake' then the order would have been taken without a second's thought. It's highly likely that that nuance might not have been reported? Or mischievously omitted from the article to sensationalise it??

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

It's possible there might be subtleties here, and if so begs the question as to why the customers needed to explain that the cake was for two lesbians. For example, if they'd just gone into the shop and ordered 'a wedding cake' then the order would have been taken without a second's thought. It's highly likely that that nuance might not have been reported? Or mischievously omitted from the article to sensationalise it??

They were asked by the bakery. I'm not that well versed in wedding cake purchases, but I don't believe it's uncommon to have a consultation with people hoping to get married on what they want for their wedding. The women went to that bakery thinking they'd be served, so they likely saw no reason to lie just to get a cake. Not like they were buying a gun to go murder someone or something. They were ordering a cake for a wedding. Why would they be refused?

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovemen...ng_you_heard_on_the_sweet_cakes_case_is_false

 

[Cerberus]

It's possible there might be subtleties here, and if so begs the question as to why the customers needed to explain that the cake was for two lesbians. For example, if they'd just gone into the shop and ordered 'a wedding cake' then the order would have been taken without a second's thought. It's highly likely that that nuance might not have been reported? Or mischievously omitted from the article to sensationalise it??

They were asked by the bakery. I'm not that well versed in wedding cake purchases, but I don't believe it's uncommon to have a consultation with people hoping to get married on what they want for their wedding. The women went to that bakery thinking they'd be served, so they likely saw no reason to lie just to get a cake. Not like they were buying a gun to go murder someone or something. They were ordering a cake for a wedding. Why would they be refused?
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovemen...ng_you_heard_on_the_sweet_cakes_case_is_false

I don't know. As you said, you were not there at the time, and I wasn't either. Sometimes, though, it's as well not to believe everything you read in newspapers?

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Sometimes, though, it's as well not to believe everything you read in newspapers?

That link was for convenience. What they cited as their source was: http://www.oregon.gov/boli/SiteAssets/pages/press/Sweet Cakes FO.pdf

I'm not taking that advice from you who started out in this thread with unfounded, prejudiced assumptions.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Again, the rule should be: DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL.

OK, so you agree that a baker should not be required to provide a gay wedding cake or a Christmas cake with a nativity scene or anything else the baker might not agree with.

What is a "gay wedding cake" and how does it differ from any other wedding cake?

It's a cake intended for a gay wedding, which the baker doesn't need to know. If they tell him this is what it's for, he is entitled to refuse.

If it's an Elvis Presley birthday cake, and the baker hates Elvis Presley music, and they tell him this is what it's for, then he is entitled to refuse.

If it's for a straight Christian couple, but they're going to play Wagner's wedding march, and the baker hates Wagner for being antisemitic, he is entitled to refuse. It's the customer's fault for telling him what music was going to be played.

It doesn't have to be for a Hitler or Mao birthday party, or other mass murderer, but simply any purpose that the baker disagrees with. If they don't tell him, he should have to sell them the product. But if they tell him, he is entitled to refuse.