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"The Bell Curve": Twenty Years Later, Q&A With Charles Murray

rousseau

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http://www.aei-ideas.org/2014/10/the-bell-curve-20-years-later-a-qa-with-charles-murray/

The Bell Curve was a book I had never heard of before, but after coming across this article on Twitter it looks like it had some pretty influential ideas in it, and they seem to point in the general direction that most of the liberal thinkers on this board do. Most of them are nothing new to the forum: universal basic income, increasingly intellectual elite, automation, post-industrial economy.

Anyway, surely many of you have likely read this book so I thought I'd get a thread rolling and get your already cemented opinions about it out of your brains, as often seems to happen when I post about a book.
 
Isn't it the one that says people differ in intellect by race?

In the interview the author mentions that the main thesis of the book is that society is moving towards having an increasingly intellectual elite, which is race agnostic. It seems like the reaction the book got was very heavily based on race, but as far as I can tell that's not really what it was about.
 
This was a very controversial and discredited book.

Probably the best person to read is Stephen Jay Gould if you can find his criticism.

One of Gould's most salient points was that it is impossible to attach an objective score to human intelligence. It is too many things and eliminating bias in testing is extremely difficult.

People with IQ's of 150 can't fix their own car but their mechanic with a 110 IQ can.
 
From Wikipedia:

Intelligence exists and is accurately measurable across racial, language, and national boundaries.

Intelligence is one of, if not the most, important factors correlated to economic, social, and overall success in the United States, and its importance is increasing.

Intelligence is largely (40% to 80%) heritable.

No one has so far been able to manipulate IQ to a significant degree through changes in environmental factors—except for child adoption—and in light of these failures, future successful manipulations are unlikely.

The United States has been in denial of these facts. A better public understanding of the nature of intelligence and its social correlates is necessary to guide future policy decisions.

Therefore those on the lower end of the spectrum of natural ability need to be protected as their skills become more irrelevant.
 
From Wikipedia:

Intelligence exists and is accurately measurable across racial, language, and national boundaries.

Intelligence is one of, if not the most, important factors correlated to economic, social, and overall success in the United States, and its importance is increasing.

Intelligence is largely (40% to 80%) heritable.

No one has so far been able to manipulate IQ to a significant degree through changes in environmental factors—except for child adoption—and in light of these failures, future successful manipulations are unlikely.

The United States has been in denial of these facts. A better public understanding of the nature of intelligence and its social correlates is necessary to guide future policy decisions.

Therefore those on the lower end of the spectrum of natural ability need to be protected as their skills become more irrelevant.

I'm surprised that they claim one can't manipulate intelligence. I thought poverty and nutrition were well known to have a significant effect on intelligence. And what do they propose it is about adoption that makes a difference? Perhaps poverty and nutrition?
 
From Wikipedia:

Intelligence exists and is accurately measurable across racial, language, and national boundaries.

Intelligence is one of, if not the most, important factors correlated to economic, social, and overall success in the United States, and its importance is increasing.

Intelligence is largely (40% to 80%) heritable.

No one has so far been able to manipulate IQ to a significant degree through changes in environmental factors—except for child adoption—and in light of these failures, future successful manipulations are unlikely.

The United States has been in denial of these facts. A better public understanding of the nature of intelligence and its social correlates is necessary to guide future policy decisions.

Therefore those on the lower end of the spectrum of natural ability need to be protected as their skills become more irrelevant.

Intelligence exists is true.

Certain aspects can be somewhat measured but not measured in a laboratory, measured in a world with countless factors responsible for that aspect of intelligence.

And I like how it says 40 to 80% inheritable. Maybe a minor factor or maybe a major factor. Maybe only parenting and not genetics at all.

Certain aspects of intelligence can be examined. Intelligence itself can't.

A lot of what IQ tests are testing is the desire of the person to do well on IQ tests.
 
When I found the original link on twitter it came a long with this quote:

"Charles Murray: Natural ability is luck, massive redistribution is fair and inevitable, and basic income is the way"

I think that pretty much gets to the crux of what's relevant about the book.
 
Bad Ideas get recycled every so many years. Some institute or some such thing will trot out the discredited and disreputed theory, dress it in bows and just to be safe say, "Well look at this part here and pay no attention to this big disproven part over there."

it's The Bell Curve's turn.
 
From Wikipedia:



Therefore those on the lower end of the spectrum of natural ability need to be protected as their skills become more irrelevant.

I'm surprised that they claim one can't manipulate intelligence. I thought poverty and nutrition were well known to have a significant effect on intelligence. And what do they propose it is about adoption that makes a difference? Perhaps poverty and nutrition?

I don't know about the book but elsewhere I have run into the fact that those who are adopted average a bit lower IQ than biological siblings. This makes sense if intelligence is inheritable--most adoptions are because the biological parents made stupid decisions.
 
I don't know about the book but elsewhere I have run into the fact that those who are adopted average a bit lower IQ than biological siblings. This makes sense if intelligence is inheritable--most adoptions are because the biological parents made stupid decisions.

There is no correlation between IQ and making bad decisions.

I guess you never heard of Robert McNamara and Kennedy's best and brightest. The people who thought us into Vietnam.

The score on a test is not a magic wand that makes real world decisions sound.
 
I don't know about the book but elsewhere I have run into the fact that those who are adopted average a bit lower IQ than biological siblings. This makes sense if intelligence is inheritable--most adoptions are because the biological parents made stupid decisions.

There is no correlation between IQ and making bad decisions.

I guess you never heard of Robert McNamara and Kennedy's best and brightest. The people who thought us into Vietnam.

The score on a test is not a magic wand that makes real world decisions sound.

Just because intelligence doesn't mean one makes perfect decisions doesn't mean there's no relationship.
 
Just because intelligence doesn't mean one makes perfect decisions doesn't mean there's no relationship.

There is no relationship between the score you get on an IQ test and your ability to deal with real world situations.

In fact many people with high IQ's have great difficulty in real world situations.
 
Just because intelligence doesn't mean one makes perfect decisions doesn't mean there's no relationship.

There is no relationship between the score you get on an IQ test and your ability to deal with real world situations.

In fact many people with high IQ's have great difficulty in real world situations.

It depends on the situation.
 
The Bell Curve was a book I had never heard of before, but after coming across this article on Twitter it looks like it had some pretty influential ideas in it, and they seem to point in the general direction that most of the liberal thinkers on this board do. Most of them are nothing new to the forum: universal basic income, increasingly intellectual elite, automation, post-industrial economy.

Anyway, surely many of you have likely read this book so I thought I'd get a thread rolling and get your already cemented opinions about it out of your brains, as often seems to happen when I post about a book.

It is a very influential book, but for all the wrong reasons. It gets used as a lightning rod for racial politics in the US, because it claims that black people are, mentally, inferior to whites.

The idea behind the Bell Curve is basically the modern incarnation of eugenics - the idea that there those who are genetically superior, and those who are genetically inferior, and that society needs to be reformed to recognise this difference, and deal with it in a sensible fashion. Politically this is an unpopular view because it generally results in some mild form of fascism, but the book doesn't get into specifics on that. Instead it focuses on charting the differences between groups, and the social implications of what this means.

In doing so it has to establish several points.
-It has to establish that these are fixed genetic, heritable differences, rather than anything else.
-It has to establish that IQ is a measure of inherent ability or potential.
-It has to establish that these differences are meaningful on a practical level

Ironically for a book about the social implications of a science, it is the at the scientific level that the book really fails, since it fails to establish any of these points in a convincing manner. It tries to do so simply by rejecting or dismissing alternatives - by shifting the burden of proof onto detractors, precisely because none of these assumptions do well in testing.

For a start, while it is clear that IQ is highly inheritable, there's very little evidence that it is fixed or genetic. Education makes a vast difference to IQ test scores, as does practice. Simply being raised in an environment where formal testing is normal gives one a huge boost, leading to IQ test results tending to reinforce existing social boundaries. Similarly, improving nutrition improves IQ test results. Inheritable does not means genetic - wealth, social class, and education are also highly inheritable characteristics.

It's hard to define what the authors really mean by inherent ability or potential. There is this idea that IQ represents some X-factor underlying all human cognitive performance, but there's no real evidence for this view. Certainly researchers have come up with measures of mental ability, particularly around emotional or social reasoning, that correlate very poorly with IQ.

But the biggest gap by far is in the area of demonstrating that these values represent a practical difference. Gould's criticisms are the most famous, mainly because he goes into the most detail. It boils down to:
-The differences being described between groups are very small.
-The individual differences between people in the groups are extremely large.
-The authors, intentionally or otherwise, blur the differences between differences between groups and differences within groups
-The result is that they are declaring as significant for the country, differences which are not statistically significant predictors of individual achievement.
Or to put it another way...
-Being a particular race is not a significant predictor of your IQ. Nor is being in any of the other disadvantaged or advantaged groups that they discuss.

This kind of statistical mistake is unfortunately quite common in the social sciences, where the actual computation is done by a computer, and scientists may not pay as much attention to the validity of their results as they should.
 
Just because intelligence doesn't mean one makes perfect decisions doesn't mean there's no relationship.

There is no relationship between the score you get on an IQ test and your ability to deal with real world situations.

In fact many people with high IQ's have great difficulty in real world situations.

And many people with low IQs have great difficulty in real world situations. If the proportion of the latter is higher than the proportion of the former then there is a positive relationship between the two.
 
There is no relationship between the score you get on an IQ test and your ability to deal with real world situations.

In fact many people with high IQ's have great difficulty in real world situations.

And many people with low IQs have great difficulty in real world situations. If the proportion of the latter is higher than the proportion of the former then there is a positive relationship between the two.

Why would we assume such was the case?

An IQ test is not a test to determine how well you deal with real world situations.

You could easily speculate that a person with a low IQ needs to develop better real world skills because they are less self sufficient.

And of course having sex and having children is something humans are driven by powerful forces to do.

It is only within a Christian context and in a society that doesn't take care for the poor that this is ever considered a bad choice.

I still contend that with minor variations in scores on IQ tests you may be looking at nothing but a difference in motivation and desire to do well on the test. Just because you have X intelligence doesn't mean a test you take yourself will expose X to others.
 
And many people with low IQs have great difficulty in real world situations. If the proportion of the latter is higher than the proportion of the former then there is a positive relationship between the two.

Why would we assume such was the case?

An IQ test is not a test to determine how well you deal with real world situations.

You could easily speculate that a person with a low IQ needs to develop better real world skills because they are less self sufficient.

And of course having sex and having children is something humans are driven by powerful forces to do.

It is only within a Christian context and in a society that doesn't take care for the poor that this is ever considered a bad choice.

I still contend that with minor variations in scores on IQ tests you may be looking at nothing but a difference in motivation and desire to do well on the test. Just because you have X intelligence doesn't mean a test you take yourself will expose X to others.

There's a limit to how many resources can be devoted to taking care of the poor. Until the last few hundred years it wasn't even an option.
 
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