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"The Bell Curve": Twenty Years Later, Q&A With Charles Murray

Like nearly all of the more popular critiques, Gould's was rooted more in ideology than any actual knowledge of cognitive science of which he had little. Gould's critiques in his book "Mismeasure of Man" have themselves been far more discredited than the central (actual) ideas of The Bell Curve. His critique may be "one of the best", but that isn't saying much.

Please provide a link to show how Gould's arguments have been discredited.

The only thing that has happened is Gould has died and now his ideas can be attacked with impunity. Something impossible when he was alive.

People with IQ's of 150 can't fix their own car but their mechanic with a 110 IQ can.

There are mentally challenged chimps that could be taught to fix a car better than most human adults currently can.

You of course have evidence of this?
 
Please provide a link to show how Gould's arguments have been discredited.

The only thing that has happened is Gould has died and now his ideas can be attacked with impunity. Something impossible when he was alive.

Plenty of very valid critiques of his ideas occurred while alive. The article I already linked in response to Athena, signed by 52 top cognitive scientists discredits most of Gould's arguments about general intelligence, especially the silly strawman fallacy that you, he, and nearly all critics of the concept have, which is that it is supposed to represent everything that impacts cognitive performance. Nearly all of his comments about the Bell Curve were based upon this utterly false assumption that no researcher advocating the reality of general intelligence has every advocated.

Oh, here are some critiques of his work in mainstream journals, exposing his dishonest and politically motivated, and often slanderous misrepresentation of fact.
Book review published in Nature

And then there is this peer reviewed study showing that Gould's claims that Morton's skull measurement research was racially biased was in fact itself politically biased and a distortion of Morton's methods by Gould.

untermensche said:
untermensche said:
doubtingt said:
People with IQ's of 150 can't fix their own car but their mechanic with a 110 IQ can.

There are mentally challenged chimps that could be taught to fix a car better than most human adults currently can.

You of course have evidence of this?

Pretty much the entire field of non-human primate cognition shows that can be trained to perform more cognitively complex tasks than changing the spark plugs on a car, which most human adults wouldn't know how to do if you asked them.

Of course you don't actually care about that particular claim. Your request for evidence of it is just a dishonest red herring to distract from what it highlights, which is the entire argument you deleted and ignored about how extreme differences in specialized training (which mechanics have and most people don't) can overcome differences in one's ability to either reason to a conclusion without much prior knowledge or learn from a given amount of training (which is what IQ tests measure). Do you sincerely believe that any theory of general intelligence requires that people with a higher IQ be able to perform every task in universe better than those with a lower IQ? Because that is the assumption that is logically entailed by your example of the 110 IQ mechanic as counter evidence to the existence of general intelligence or its valid measurement.

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Who here believes that intelligence is genetically linked to skin color?

Eye shape?

Lip fullness?



Who here can provide any evidence showing that Murray believes this, or that it is logically necessitated by any claims in the Bell Curve?
 
Sure, because you should always just let racism dressed up in science slide right on by.

No, but rather because it is as harmful and irrational to blindly dismiss scientific claims based on pure emotional feelings that your (mis)representation of the claims gives rise to. That is what you just admitted to doing, and yet you cannot show that anyone here is doing what you charge and letting the claims slide on by.
 
Plenty of very valid critiques of his ideas occurred while alive. The article I already linked in response to Athena, signed by 52 top cognitive scientists discredits most of Gould's arguments about general intelligence, especially the silly strawman fallacy that you, he, and nearly all critics of the concept have, which is that it is supposed to represent everything that impacts cognitive performance. Nearly all of his comments about the Bell Curve were based upon this utterly false assumption that no researcher advocating the reality of general intelligence has every advocated.

You misrepresent Gould's criticism. You don't know it.

“The Bell Curve” (1994) by Richard J Herrnstein and Charles Murray is suppose to give the science proving that blacks in America have less intelligence in general than whites – and always will because intelligence, as measured by IQ, is mostly inborn or genetic. Further, they say this lack of intelligence is why things like crime, unemployment and illegitimacy are so high among blacks – and why throwing tax money at them will make little difference. In short: warmed-over social Darwinism.

As it turns out, even if you go by their numbers, IQ is weakly correlated with illegitimacy and so on – the numbers match up badly. So badly, in fact, that when they draw the lines on their graphs to show the relationships, they leave out the dots, the scatter of data points the lines are based on!

All this is based on only one set of data with the numbers worked a certain way. But there are other sets of numbers, which they overlook – but would not if they had a strong case. And there are other ways to work the numbers. In fact, you can even show that it is impossible to measure intelligence by a single number!

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/the-bell-curve/

untermensche said:
doubtingt said:
You of course have evidence of this?

Pretty much the entire field of non-human primate cognition shows that can be trained to perform more cognitively complex tasks than changing the spark plugs on a car, which most human adults wouldn't know how to do if you asked them.

A mechanic can diagnose a problem.

To reduce it to screwing in a spark plug on command is not a serious argument.

Of course you don't actually care about that particular claim.

My caring is not an issue.

The issue was whether or not IQ has any generalized consequence on behavior. It is a score on a test.
 
Let's also not forget that the portion of g factor that is heritable is also magnified by the g factor of the parents, who directly influence the environment. g factor is correlated with income and parenting ability, so kids born from low g factor parents get both the genetic and the environmental factors that affect their g factor. Furthermore, assortative mating further compounds the problem, there is a high correlation between g factor and the person one chooses to mate with (college graduates often marry college graduates, and the level of college education is also correlated - post graduate degree holders are more likely to mate with other post graduate degree holders, etc.)

As far as the race factor goes, why would it be so out of the question to believe that groups that originated from different common homo sapien ancestors would have some differences in the portion of g factor that is inheritable, especially in light of the fact that assortative mating occurs and is correlated with g factor? On what scientific basis are you using to support such a claim? Note, this does _not_ mean that skin color is the determining factor or even a useful guide, or that "race" is the right term. Ancestry is what matters, and groups of different ethnic origins have different ancestry. It could also be the case that between group differences are small, but it would be surprising for it to be zero. As doubtingt has already mention, the individual g factor differences within groups are far larger than the average difference between groups.
 
Who here believes that intelligence is genetically linked to skin color?

Eye shape?

Lip fullness?

No one here or just about anywhere else believes that - even many storm fronters don't believe that.

Speak for others much?

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Plenty of very valid critiques of his ideas occurred while alive. The article I already linked in response to Athena, signed by 52 top cognitive scientists discredits most of Gould's arguments about general intelligence, especially the silly strawman fallacy that you, he, and nearly all critics of the concept have, which is that it is supposed to represent everything that impacts cognitive performance. Nearly all of his comments about the Bell Curve were based upon this utterly false assumption that no researcher advocating the reality of general intelligence has every advocated.

Oh, here are some critiques of his work in mainstream journals, exposing his dishonest and politically motivated, and often slanderous misrepresentation of fact.
Book review published in Nature

And then there is this peer reviewed study showing that Gould's claims that Morton's skull measurement research was racially biased was in fact itself politically biased and a distortion of Morton's methods by Gould.

untermensche said:
untermensche said:
doubtingt said:
People with IQ's of 150 can't fix their own car but their mechanic with a 110 IQ can.

There are mentally challenged chimps that could be taught to fix a car better than most human adults currently can.

You of course have evidence of this?

Pretty much the entire field of non-human primate cognition shows that can be trained to perform more cognitively complex tasks than changing the spark plugs on a car, which most human adults wouldn't know how to do if you asked them.

Of course you don't actually care about that particular claim. Your request for evidence of it is just a dishonest red herring to distract from what it highlights, which is the entire argument you deleted and ignored about how extreme differences in specialized training (which mechanics have and most people don't) can overcome differences in one's ability to either reason to a conclusion without much prior knowledge or learn from a given amount of training (which is what IQ tests measure). Do you sincerely believe that any theory of general intelligence requires that people with a higher IQ be able to perform every task in universe better than those with a lower IQ? Because that is the assumption that is logically entailed by your example of the 110 IQ mechanic as counter evidence to the existence of general intelligence or its valid measurement.

- - - Updated - - -

Who here believes that intelligence is genetically linked to skin color?

Eye shape?

Lip fullness?



Who here can provide any evidence showing that Murray believes this, or that it is logically necessitated by any claims in the Bell Curve?

Didn't say he did. Asked the people here. And that is not an answer but an evasion
 
Who here believes that intelligence is genetically linked to skin color?

Eye shape?

Lip fullness?

Strawman. Ancestry is what matters for the heritable portion of g factor. How we define a group is arbitrary.

Do you deny that there are average differences in the heritable portion of g factor between families? If a family has tall ancestors that also had high g factor and, as a result, this family had higher than average g factor compared to the human population as a whole (the portion resulting from inheritance), would you say that g factor is genetically linked to height?
 
Who here believes that intelligence is genetically linked to skin color?

Eye shape?

Lip fullness?

Strawman. Ancestry is what matters for the heritable portion of g factor. How we define a group is arbitrary.

Do you deny that there are average differences in the heritable portion of g factor between families? If a family has tall ancestors that also had high g factor and, as a result, this family had higher than average g factor compared to the human population as a whole (the portion resulting from inheritance), would you say that g factor is genetically linked to height?
Since psychologists are still debating what g is, if there is a g or are there multiple intelligence and what they are; if intelligence is fixed or can be changed by environment and if so how much of intelligence is nature and how much is nurture, I say g is an incomplete construct and as such I deny it is a factor in anything, heritable or otherwise.

BTW
Are regions of the planet more apt to produce genes that make that region inhabitants smarter that the denizens of other regions? if so, how?

And you might want to bone up on your knowledge of others in the field who support and have provided research onwhich Murray has based his theories and conclusions

I see them in this thread's future.
 
Who here believes that intelligence is genetically linked to skin color?

Eye shape?

Lip fullness?

Strawman. Ancestry is what matters for the heritable portion of g factor. How we define a group is arbitrary.

Do you deny that there are average differences in the heritable portion of g factor between families? If a family has tall ancestors that also had high g factor and, as a result, this family had higher than average g factor compared to the human population as a whole (the portion resulting from inheritance), would you say that g factor is genetically linked to height?

Actually I hope its an intentional strawman, but given Athena's rhetorical question in a reply to me ("speaking for others much?") she may be serious. In other words, she may ACTUALLY believe that there are others here who might think there is a genetic link to skin color.

So ya, I am speaking for others, I am sure no one here believes in invisible pink elephants, that the moon landing was faked, or that there is a genetic link of IQ or g to skin color.
 
Please provide a link to show how Gould's arguments have been discredited.

The only thing that has happened is Gould has died and now his ideas can be attacked with impunity. Something impossible when he was alive.

People with IQ's of 150 can't fix their own car but their mechanic with a 110 IQ can.

There are mentally challenged chimps that could be taught to fix a car better than most human adults currently can.

You of course have evidence of this?

Please provide a link to show how Gould's arguments have been discredited.

The only thing that has happened is Gould has died and now his ideas can be attacked with impunity. Something impossible when he was alive.

I suspect that your not trying to write satire, but you certainly have a talent for it. FYI, his non-expert "ideas" while dabbling in subjects related to race and intelligence have been long (and increasingly) ridiculed for the last couple of decades, and even obliquely discredited by his own admirer(s) in his obit...his error being excused because "at least he was on the side of the angels".

But for a devastating critique by an expert of stature in the field when Gould was alive and spinning: http://www.eugenics.net/papers/rushton.html
 
-It has to establish that these are fixed genetic, heritable differences, rather than anything else.
Murray's core arguments and the implications he draws do not depend upon genetic determinism.
No, but they do depend on these factors being beyond manipulation by other means, a point he himself makes.
All that needs to be assumed is that factors outside of direct control combine to impact early brain development in a manner that creates relatively stable differences in various cognitive abilities that have an impact on cognitive performance (either directly and/or via effects upon rates of learning from practice and experience). If, the causes of these developmental differences were factors impacting fetal development, how exactly would that change his arguments?
It would demolish them entirely. If it all turned out to be based on external factors influencing fetal development then his call to reform society would entirely spurious - all we'd need to do is adopt best practice in early stage pregnancy and the entire problem disappears.
-It has to establish that IQ is a measure of inherent ability or potential.
IT only has to establish that there are measures showing relative stability in a related basic cognitive processes that impact performance and rates of improvement in performance across many intellectual tasks, such as reading comprehension, logical reasoning, arithmetic, scientific argumentation, etc..
Not so. There are plenty of existing factors that already have these characteristics. Parental income, for example. Parental income is relatively stable, and relates to basic cognitive processes that impact performance. It's also highly heritable. But there's no logic to the idea that we should structure society around family wealth.
No, his ideas depend on IQ being inherent to the individual - otherwise his social ideas become a nonsense.
-It has to establish that these differences are meaningful on a practical level
With the number of intellectual tasks that the g-factor predicts performance on, the only way it is not practically meaningful is if essentially all of formals education (which seeks to develop skills on these very tasks) has no practical meaning.
Again not true. IQ could be the result of formal education, rather than a predictor of it, thus making it meaningless on a practical level, while formal education remains important.
Even then, IQ test still have meaning in determining success within formal education and thus upon everything that is in turn impacted by one's schooling, both in terms of grades, graduation, college attendance, degree type, etc..
'Determining'? Careful, you're in danger of assuming causation from a finding of correlation - a fairly critical statistical error. IQ is correlated with academic success. That doesn't mean it causes or determines it.
Togo said:
But the biggest gap by far is in the area of demonstrating that these values represent a practical difference. Gould's criticisms are the most famous, mainly because he goes into the most detail. It boils down to:
-The differences being described between groups are very small.
-The individual differences between people in the groups are extremely large.
In nearly every behavioral or medical experiment the group differences are a fraction of the individual differences among people within a group. This does nothing to undermine inferences about the contributors to the differences.
No, but it does undermine the social recommendations that Murray is making, since they depend not on group differences, but on individual performance. Which is not significantly effected by membership of the group. What he's doing is measuring a group difference, assuming this implies an effect on the individual, and then recommending social change to cater for these individual differences that he has not managed to measure. It makes a sort of naive sense, but statistically it is nonsense. If he could detect his group membership factors being significant predictors of individual performance, he wouldn't need group differences.
In addition, if biology were the cause of general intelligence, then even if those biological factors had some relation to race, one would still expect larger within group differences in IQ than between group differences. This is because the difference in the biological factors will almost always be greater between the most extremely different members of a single group, then between the most prototypical and statistically "central" members of different groups. Nothing about this in any way undermines the central points of that book.
It undermines his recommendation that society be restructured to cater for differences in IQ. It also undermines his discussion of how various groups within US society have fared as being driven by IQ. It further undermines his contention that the increasingly unequal nature of US society is a result of employment increasingly relying on cognitive processes.
It pretty much sinks the whole thing. You can probably rescue g as a concept, but that's not what the book is about.
-The authors, intentionally or otherwise, blur the differences between differences between groups and differences within groups.
Yes, because the issue is not merely group level differences but individual differences that can sometimes manifest as differences at the group level if the factors that determine the differences are partially related to the factors that define group membership. The group differences are not the point. They are used just as an illustration and because most people (especially critics of his books) view society entirely in terms of groups and their different outcomes rather than variance at the individual level. Most of their critiques and those who focus everything on race care only about making the aggregate outcomes between groups the same by any means neccessary, no matter what injustices must be done at the individual level. To them, it does not matter whether an individual white person actually got advantages over an individual black person. All that matters is that giving special treatment to the black person over the white (even if the black person already had more advantages) will make the group level aggregate outcomes more equal. The Bell Curve authors do not see group level unequal outcomes as the sole problem to be addressed, and refer to them in service of a larger point about individual differences.
If he could detect individual differences based on group membership, as distinct from other factors that Murray claims don't properly manipulate IQ, why didn't he publish them?
 
I'd further point out that the article quoted with the 52 signatories supports a general view of g, which had been subject to the distortions inevitable in the media, but they do not support the Bell Curve as a book, or Murray's social recommendations in particular. Even then, of the 100 contacted, roughly 10% refused to sign it because they thought the statement was wrong in some way, which is fairly high for a sample selected for agreement. And 52 scientists indicates a trend within a scientific specialism, but hardly an overwhelming consensus.

It's worth separating those who use g as part of their research - it's a statistically useful measure, and well established and understood. That doesn't demonstrate that it's a valid measure of human ability, let alone human potential, and there are a great many scientists who regard it with suspicion, just as they regard chemical lesion experiments in rats, or digit span tests as a measure of short term memory, with suspicion.
 
Hey togo, didn't hundreds of scientists also sign a thing denying anthropogenic global warming?

That must mean it's false, right?
 
Hey togo, didn't hundreds of scientists also sign a thing denying anthropogenic global warming?

That must mean it's false, right?

Not my area. I know there was famously a vote by the British Psychological society on whether homosexuality was a mental illness. Of course they voted to cease treating it as a mental illness, but it wasn't unanimous.

IQ testing is just one end of a spectrum of ideas on how to measure individual differences in people. Some of the discussion has focused on how many axes to use when graphing such differences. The highest proposed was well over 400 axes (one for each pair of opposing words in the English language that could be used to describe someone's personality), the lowest was 1 (g, the basis of IQ tests). The difference comes down to whether you want to describe all possible differences between people, or whether you want to focus on one, and subsume everything important into that. There's little doubt that IQ tests provide a useful measure. Whether they actually measure something real that matches the abstraction g, or whether they are simply measuring ability at similar tasks is another matter. When you get lots of closely correlated measures, you can always draw a line through the cluster and measure them all as one factor. Whether that's what's really going on is a different question, and can't easily be measured.

As a result a great deal of discussion of IQ testing in general, and the concept of g (general intelligence) ends up being political. It doesn't make much practical difference to the existing science whether g is a real thing being measured, or just an abstraction of lots of similar tests and measurements. But in political terms, in terms of social recommendations, social ideology, and culture wars between scientific specialisms, it makes a huge difference.
 
But for a devastating critique by an expert of stature in the field when Gould was alive and spinning: http://www.eugenics.net/papers/rushton.html

It's certainly a devastating attack of his politics and writing style, yes. However, I note that the attack doesn't actually refute his central criticism of the Bell Curve, that the statistics do not show what the authors want them to. The closest it gets is in a section where it points out that the same criticism can be made of some studies that Gould favours. Which is true, but doesn't alter his point.

More generally I'd note that it goes into a lot of detail about the flaws in Gould's reasoning in rejecting various studies from the Victorian era. While the flaws are certainly real, there is now little doubt that those Victorian studies were flawed, their motives racist, and their conclusions wrong. Unless anyone is really supporting the idea that cranial capacity determines intelligence, or that native Polynesians are constitutionally incapable of higher reasoning, then the fact that Gould's arguments against them are flawed is interesting, but doesn't actually change anyone's opinions of the studies themselves.
 
I suspect that your not trying to write satire, but you certainly have a talent for it. FYI, his non-expert "ideas" while dabbling in subjects related to race and intelligence have been long (and increasingly) ridiculed for the last couple of decades, and even obliquely discredited by his own admirer(s) in his obit...his error being excused because "at least he was on the side of the angels".

But for a devastating critique by an expert of stature in the field when Gould was alive and spinning: http://www.eugenics.net/papers/rushton.html

You don't have a clue who you are promoting.

Academic Racist J. Philippe Rushton Dead at 68

Jean Philippe Rushton, one of recent history’s most controversial, even hated, ‘scientists’ has died, leaving behind a cesspool of overly-simplistic theories in the field of race and intelligence. His research ignored the complexities of genetic variance, mutation and of course the social and environmental factors that indeed change genes in a lifetime, and the myriad of factors affecting IQ testing from education and income to the various testing methods themselves. His contrived conclusions harken back to the days of phrenology, eugenics and social Darwinism.

http://disinfo.com/2012/10/academic-racist-j-philippe-rushton-dead-at-68/
 
You don't have a clue who you are promoting.

Academic Racist J. Philippe Rushton Dead at 68

Jean Philippe Rushton, one of recent history’s most controversial, even hated, ‘scientists’ has died, leaving behind a cesspool of overly-simplistic theories in the field of race and intelligence. His research ignored the complexities of genetic variance, mutation and of course the social and environmental factors that indeed change genes in a lifetime, and the myriad of factors affecting IQ testing from education and income to the various testing methods themselves. His contrived conclusions harken back to the days of phrenology, eugenics and social Darwinism.

http://disinfo.com/2012/10/academic-racist-j-philippe-rushton-dead-at-68/

You would think something posted at a website called eugenics.net would be clue enough. Evidently not.
 
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