The block universe, free will, death, and Nietzsche

[bilby]

But is not compatibilist free will itself a predetermined part of the structure of spacetime? The existence of free will, as an unavoidable consequence of imperfect knowledge about the future, is an inherent part of the block. No?

Yes.

 

[Gospel]

but these responsibilities are determined by the initial setup and the rules set by the developer(s)

Responsibility is not zero-sum. The developers are responsible for making other things that are themselves responsible for things in turn, but the responsibility of the developer/initial condition/whatever doesn't change the momentary responsibilities through the evolution of the system.

Causality still happens, the constant conjunction still happens, and things do what they will as they are in the moment.

Is 'responsibility' not the core principle guiding each component of the system? Specifically, is it not the modus operandi of each component?

 

[bilby]

Introducing programming into the discussion about free will in the block universe is problematic because the programmer exists outside the program and exerts external influence on it. This differs from the block universe concept, where all influences and events, including our thoughts and decisions, are contained within the same spacetime framework.

When conceptualising the block universe, you must "step outside", at least in your imagination. So while it differs from the block universe definition, it does not differ from the concept.

Thinking about what the entire block does requires a "god's eye view", but like gods (and universe programmers), the observer thus created is imaginary; You can imagine yourself observing the block from outside, but you cannot actually observe the block from outside, because you are a part of the universe you are conceptualising.

 

[Gospel]

But is not compatibilist free will itself a predetermined part of the structure of spacetime? The existence of free will, as an unavoidable consequence of imperfect knowledge about the future, is an inherent part of the block. No?

Yes.

I was beginning to think I was crazy.

 

[bilby]

But is not compatibilist free will itself a predetermined part of the structure of spacetime? The existence of free will, as an unavoidable consequence of imperfect knowledge about the future, is an inherent part of the block. No?

Yes.

I was beginning to think I was crazy.

That you and I are in agreement is far from being a guarantee that you are not.

 

[Jarhyn]

Let's take for a moment a special case in which the programmer uses knowledge of a responsibility to find a different deterministic system in a way similar to how agents within a sufficiently complex system could operate:

I run my system forward until an error happens, and I discover a situation that I can't easily track to the initial condition, or for which there's nothing "specific" and "trivial" about the initial condition I can use to resolve it. I know it always happens when there's a specific signature within the next five instructions on the program counter: it shifts a constant zero onto R2's address and then divides.

These instructions have a specific signature (namely the shift of R2 or the reality of 0 in R2 followed subsequently by the division).

In this situation, replacing 0 with a nonzero value, or setting the division instruction instead to an interrupt set up to produce a suitably large number in the result register before returning, or even setting up an interrupt that reads that the system divided by zero and needs this "handled" is going to be important to prevent the default behavior of the system (which here is "halting"). This means identifying things that would be "otherwise responsible for halting", and to address those responsible objects before or as they create their consequences.

How does this relate to reality? Well, we can "read ahead" to see what the "code" ahead of us "would do", and change what it "would do" to something that doesn't cause issues for us. It's the same activity as the gods-eye-view programmer would undertake in rearranging the initial condition (providing a non-breaking interrupt handler to reconfigure the moment), but without needing to be said god or donk with initial conditions.

Responsibility makes sense and is "observably a real thing within the system" from both perspectives.

 

[pood]

Maybe I'm not quite grasping Block Universe theory, which is why I'm having trouble with the responses. Could you two kindly let me share my understanding using my own analogy? Then, if you're up for it, explain how free will fits into that analogy? If my analogy falls short, I'll gracefully accept temporary defeat in reaching an understanding.

It's like everything except time is on a vinyl record, and time plays the vinyl (all integral parts that make up the Block). The needle represents our current position in time. Some of the record has already been played (the past), some is yet to be played (the future), and some is being played right now (the present). What we experience is the interaction between the needle and the vinyl. We cannot see what will be played next; we only know what has already been played because we observed it. Although we can make predictions based on our observations and take actions we believe may influence the future, these attempts to change the future and the perception that we can change it are themselves part of the record. They are always being played in the present, and their outcomes are predetermined.

How can we demonstrate that the future is changeable without access to it anyway?

Please note that I don't actually believe the Block Theory is more than a theory, and I'm not an advocate for or against it. I'm just a slightly below-average intelligence yet curious individual.

It’s an interesting and colorful analogy, one I had not heard before. The needle as a metaphor for consciousness, the vinyl record a metaphor for the block universe. The needle of consciousness “plays” the record of spacetime.

But like all analogies it is flawed. The record is prefabricated. The block universe is not, because there is no “pre” or “post.” The block universe simply IS — the postulate of the absolute world, Minkowski called it.

 

[pood]

I started this thread arguing that the block universe might give support to Nietzsche’s eternal recurrence. Now another idea is on offer also giving support to the ER — aeon monism, the idea that the universe’s past is also its future.

 

[pood]

Of course if true it means that even if Trump is defeated this year we will have to live through his presidency again, and again and again, for all eternity.

 

[Bomb#20]

I started this thread arguing that the block universe might give support to Nietzsche’s eternal recurrence. Now another idea is on offer also giving support to the ER — aeon monism, the idea that the universe’s past is also its future.

This argument provides the story arc of Lexx.

Time as you know had a beginning and time has an end and then time begins again. As we shall each live our lives again exactly as before, I have been gifted to see into the old cycles of time. Not very clearly mind you, but I have learned that in the future-past the Brunnen-G, the great victor in the war against the insect civilisation, shall be destroyed at the hand of His Shadow. But after His Shadow leaves the Cluster they will be destroyed at the hands of the Brunnen-G. This has happened before and it will happen again.​

 

[Person19960]

Maybe I'm not quite grasping Block Universe theory, which is why I'm having trouble with the responses. Could you two kindly let me share my understanding using my own analogy? Then, if you're up for it, explain how free will fits into that analogy? If my analogy falls short, I'll gracefully accept temporary defeat in reaching an understanding.

It's like everything except time is on a vinyl record, and time plays the vinyl (all integral parts that make up the Block). The needle represents our current position in time. Some of the record has already been played (the past), some is yet to be played (the future), and some is being played right now (the present). What we experience is the interaction between the needle and the vinyl. We cannot see what will be played next; we only know what has already been played because we observed it. Although we can make predictions based on our observations and take actions we believe may influence the future, these attempts to change the future and the perception that we can change it are themselves part of the record. They are always being played in the present, and their outcomes are predetermined.

How can we demonstrate that the future is changeable without access to it anyway?

Please note that I don't actually believe the Block Theory is more than a theory, and I'm not an advocate for or against it. I'm just a slightly below-average intelligence yet curious individual.

It’s an interesting and colorful analogy, one I had not heard before. The needle as a metaphor for consciousness, the vinyl record a metaphor for the block universe. The needle of consciousness “plays” the record of spacetime.

But like all analogies it is flawed. The record is prefabricated. The block universe is not, because there is no “pre” or “post.” The block universe simply IS — the postulate of the absolute world, Minkowski called it.

You hadn't heard before? Her name is Ms Lauryn Hill!

 

[Gospel]

Maybe I'm not quite grasping Block Universe theory, which is why I'm having trouble with the responses. Could you two kindly let me share my understanding using my own analogy? Then, if you're up for it, explain how free will fits into that analogy? If my analogy falls short, I'll gracefully accept temporary defeat in reaching an understanding.

It's like everything except time is on a vinyl record, and time plays the vinyl (all integral parts that make up the Block). The needle represents our current position in time. Some of the record has already been played (the past), some is yet to be played (the future), and some is being played right now (the present). What we experience is the interaction between the needle and the vinyl. We cannot see what will be played next; we only know what has already been played because we observed it. Although we can make predictions based on our observations and take actions we believe may influence the future, these attempts to change the future and the perception that we can change it are themselves part of the record. They are always being played in the present, and their outcomes are predetermined.

How can we demonstrate that the future is changeable without access to it anyway?

Please note that I don't actually believe the Block Theory is more than a theory, and I'm not an advocate for or against it. I'm just a slightly below-average intelligence yet curious individual.

It’s an interesting and colorful analogy, one I had not heard before. The needle as a metaphor for consciousness, the vinyl record a metaphor for the block universe. The needle of consciousness “plays” the record of spacetime.

But like all analogies it is flawed. The record is prefabricated. The block universe is not, because there is no “pre” or “post.” The block universe simply IS — the postulate of the absolute world, Minkowski called it.

Jesus on a popsicle stick, that's exactly how I've imagined the record player itself—just existing there, without any need to explain its origin (edit - because there isn't one). That's why my analogy skips the question of how it came to be; the origin is an infinite, unanswerable mystery. My focus was on understanding where consciousness (edit 2 - or free will), if it’s even real, fits into the block universe. And it seems we're on the same page.