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The Christ Myth Theory

And again the fact that there are THREE people named Yeshu discussed just in this thread, all contemporary, and all filling out the myth partially, I would think it's reasonable to ascertain a historical fiction based on an amalgamation of all of them which would have unified their cults.

The Chrestus cult was in fact a good candidate for being the basis of an actual activity by an actual historic Paul many years before that cult fizzled down to embers and was reawakened by new Jesus stories, which would grow with each passing Jesus until someone "sets the histories straight" with an amalgam.
 
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Here’s the only good thing about the Christ myth theory: it is dragging the whole of academe into itself. The Bible dons are now “engaging” with the theory. Some have even embraced it. Soon it will be scholastic orthodoxy. Our universities will by this officially have joined the conspiracy nutter community. What fun! And all because the academic Pharisees of our day cannot stand the idea of this mouthy little Jew being the fulcrum of history. Hilarious!
 
Robert M. Price has argued that he would prefer the position to be called ‘New Testament Minimalism’, stressing, as he sees it, the continuity with an approach found in the Hebrew Bible scholarship of Thomas L. Thompson, Philip R. Davies and others. See Price, R. M., ‘Introduction: Surprised by Myth’, Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth (ed. Zindler, F. R. and Price, R. M.; Cranford, NJ: American Atheist Press, 2013) xvii–xxxv.

What has been branded “minimalism” by its critics is actually a methodology, an approach to the evidence: primary, secondary, archaeological, biblical. Minimalism is in fact the conclusion derived from following that methodology. In short, this methodology is the study of a region or era by applying normative methods to the primary archaeological evidence and only then interpreting biblical literature in the light of that primary evidence. The alternative “maximalism”, in short, reverses this process and starts with the assumption of the historicity of the biblical narrative (post demythologization), and then interprets the archaeological evidence through that narrative.

The “minimalism”/“maximalism” viewpoints is an example of a complete reversal of the consensus over a twenty-year-plus time period. Many of the attacks made against “minimalism” then are similarly made now against "mythicism".

Per Thompson,
The proper question [of the historicity of Jesus] is rather a largely literary question than an historical one. Until we have texts, which bear evidence of his historicity, we can not do much more with that issue. We can and must, however, ask what the texts mean—as well as ask what they mean if they are not historical (a minimalist question).

The original meaning of "Christ mythicist", was someone who like David Strauss asserted that the historicity of second-god was false. But in the modern era, it has now evolved to mean someone who believes in the literal truth of the myth of second-god as set out in the epistles and gospels of the New Testament. A similar example would be "unicorn mythicist", being someone that asserts that the existence of unicorns is true.

The historicity of second-god was held to be true under pain of death for much of the earlier history of the Christian world and during much of the latter it would likely affect ones career prospects to assert that it was not true.

That the historicity of second-god is false; is now the majority opinion of most secular scholars, yet there is a quixotic passion among some to continue using the term "Christ myth theory".

Arguably the Jesus ahistoricity theory should be the antithesis of the Jesus historicity theory. But no historicity defense (peer reviewed; published in a respected academic press; etc.) enumerating the historicity theory and defense is currently available.

In current mainstream secular and non-secular (i.e. devotees of Jesus) scholarship on the question of the historicity of Jesus:
  • A historical Jesus is a possible solution.
  • A mythical Jesus (perhaps even as a "Noble Lie") is a possible solution.
But
  • A fictional Jesus is irrational and not a possible solution.

Robert M. Price (2021). "Introduction: New Testament Minimalism". In Loftus; Price (in en). Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist?. HYPATIA Press. ISBN 978-1-83919-158-9.
If there is no God, there may yet have been a historical Jesus. If Jesus never existed, there might still be a God. The two questions are quite different, I would say unrelated. You will certainly find many atheists who believe there was a historical Jesus and even admire him in the same way they regard, say, Confucius. They are rarer, but you can even find Christians (like Roman Catholic monk and New Testament scholar Thomas L. Brodie) who do not believe there was a man named Jesus of Nazareth who walked the earth in ancient times. This book does not consider theism and atheism, being instead devoted to the question of the Christ Myth in its many versions.

The opinion that Jesus never existed is a very old one. The pseudonymous author of 2 Peter found himself in a defensive posture when he wrote, “We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ, but we were eye-witnesses of his majesty” (2 Peter 1:16). He was fibbing, but that’s not my point here. Rather, it shows that at least as early as the middle of the second century CE when this pious forgery was composed, some critics of Christianity were denying the Christian savior had ever lived. Strangely, you will find that mainstream biblical scholars mount a similar argument to 2 Peter’s. That ancient author was appealing to the past to defend a historical Christ, claiming to have seen Jesus in person. In a mirror-image version, today’s scholars also appeal to ancient history in order to discredit Mythicism by claiming there were no ancient Jesus Mythicists. How odd to hear them echoing the maxim of Medieval Catholics: “If it’s new it’s not true. If it’s true it’s not new.” Such opponents of Mythicism seem to believe that, without an ancient pedigree, a theory need not be taken seriously, never mind that their own rational-critical approach to Jesus studies is a historically recent invention.

Yes, mainstream academics laugh off Jesus Mythicism, consigning it (and those who espouse it) to the same “weirdo file” as moon landing deniers. Why? Because Mythicism is indefensible nonsense? That might be so, but I cannot help understanding the situation along the lines of Peter Berger's theory of “plausibility structures,” according to which the plausibility of any notion is proportional to the number of one’s peers who believe it. The result is “consensus scholarship,” a box outside of which nothing can be taken seriously. Minority ideas will automatically appear bizarre and heretical. It is not that consensus scholars are afraid to dissent from the party line, lest they lose their jobs. No, it is more a matter of social psychology. But I am no mind reader, so I never dare try to explain away someone’s rejection of my opinion on this basis.

In fact, as Thomas S. Kuhn explains in his great book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, advances in science proceed at least as much by new paradigms for construing data as by the discovery of new data. New models, theories, and paradigms are suggestions for making new and better sense of the data we already had. These new notions must prove themselves by running the gauntlet of collegial criticism. That’s the way it has to be; you don’t want your colleagues to just accept your theory by faith. You want it to win out, so you welcome the initial skepticism. And eventually, despite their investment in traditional consensus viewpoints, your peers may be convinced, and your once-eccentric theory may become the consensus position—until some other upstart supplants it.

This is what happened with Continental Drift: once scientists dismissed it like Flat Earthism, but eventually, with the rise of Plate Tectonics, the wind shifted, and scientists reluctantly admitted that the fact that the outlines of the continents fit together like puzzle pieces was no mere coincidence. Heresy has morphed into Orthodoxy. It has also happened (many times) in the field of biblical studies. The most drastic recent instance is that of so-called “Old Testament Minimalism,” the theory that Hebrew scriptural characters were almost all mythical: not just Adam and Eve, not only Cain and Abel, Enoch and Noah, but even Father Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon. The pioneer theorist of Minimalism, Thomas L. Thompson, was forced out of a promising academic career and had to take up house painting to make a living—until the tide finally turned. Now everybody’s a Minimalist, everybody but fundamentalists, that is. And now Professor Thompson has received the recognition he deserved all along.

It turns out that the factors that led to Old Testament Minimalism (archaeological reevaluation, tradition criticism, etc.) are also operative in Jesus Mythicism, which ought, in fact, to be called “New Testament Minimalism.” I expect, or suspect, that the wheel will keep turning and that Jesus Mythicism will sooner or later gain similar acceptance—not that I'll ever live to see it. I’m not even rooting for it. To me, it’s just a fascinating subject. And I’m far from alone in this. The contributors to the present collection are creatures, eccentrics, like me. And, though we are few (at least at present), there is a surprising range of theories among us. And I think it will always be this way, because that’s the way it is in scholarship.

As you are probably aware, today’s mainstream Jesus scholarship is quite diverse. Many theories have attracted dedicated partisans, people who conclude that the historical Jesus was a revolutionist (Robert Eisenman, Peter Cresswell), a feminist (Elisabeth Schiissler Fiorenza, Luise Schottroff), a Cynic sage (John Dominic Crossan, F. Gerald Downing; Burton L. Mack, David Seeley), a Pharisee (Harvey Falk, Hyam Maccoby), a Hasidic master (Geza Vermes), a shaman (Stevan L. Davies, Gaetano Salomone), a magician (Morton Smith), a community organizer (Richard A. Horsley), an apocalyptic prophet (Bart D. Ehrman, Richard Arthur), and so on. It would be easy and tempting for an external observer to shake his head and to judge that all these Jesus reconstructions, though a pretty good case can be made for most of them, cancel each other out. If this one is as likely as the others, why choose any one of them? Well, of course, you have to look into them all (if you want to have the right to an informed opinion) and then make your own decision. But most likely it will be a tentative one—as it must be if you want to be intellectually honest. Your conviction should not be stronger than the (fragmentary and ambiguous) evidence allows.

If someday Jesus Mythicism should dominate the field, I’m afraid this predicament would not change. As this book will make absolutely clear, there are just as many Mythicist theories. Some believe that Jesus was a fiction devised by the Flavian regime in order to pacify Jews who had the nasty habit of violently rebelling against Rome. Others argue that Jesus was a Jewish/Essene version of the equally mythical Gautama Buddha. Another option is that Jesus was, like the Vedic Soma, a mythical personification of the sacred mushroom, Amanita Muscaria. Or perhaps Jesus was a historicization of the Gnostic Man of Light. Was Jesus a Philonic heavenly high priest figure? And there are more. I believe you will find yourself surprised and impressed by the cogency of these hypotheses. Once you probably regarded all these theories (if you ever even heard of them!) as equally fantastic. After you've finished Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist?, you may very well find them equally plausible. And who says you have to settle on any one of them? It’s worth the mental effort to grasp and weigh each one. I say, let a hundred flowers bloom!
 
Yet Philo says not a word about jesus, christianity nor any of the events described in the new testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "jesus christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.
A rather disingenuous argument when you know full well, or would had you read up to this point, that none of your interlocutors are arguing for the historicity of miracles and so forth. And irrelevant in any case, as you still haven't explained why Philo would be expected to write about such things even had he heard about them, to the point that his not mentioning them is proof that they didn't happen. It would not serve any of his interests to repeat such rumors even if he believed them to be true, and he would have had no more reason to assume that said rumors were true than you do. He wasn't there, so all he could have known is the same thing you do: that some people said they had, and others said they hadn't. Why would he voluntarily bring up the matter, when it could only possibly hurt his cause of lessening ethnic tensions in Alexandria?
If Jesus actually healed lots of people, why did he do it? If he did it because he cared about them, why did he only heal a very small fraction of the sick people in the world? If he did it in order to demonstrate his power, why did he restrict demonstrating his power to a very small geographic region in the world? If you rose from the dead, and wanted people to know that you rose from the dead, you would not limit your appearances to just a few people in one small geographic region in the world. There do not seem to be sensible motives for many of the things that JC did, which suggest that he did not do many of the things that the New Testament attributes to him.

The case is weak because no one living and writing in the early to mid-first century ever seems to have heard of him.

We are left with a pile of self-serving religious documents which could easily have been tampered with throughout the years.

Philo of Alexandria wrote to Gaius Caligula, c. 40 CE, in which he spent a whole paragraph complaining what a miserable prat Pontius Pilate had been. In the course of that denunciation he never mentions that Pilate may have killed someone who "multitudes" hailed as the Messiah. Even more amazingly, he never mentions that the man that Pilate killed supposedly "came back to life" which would seem to be a pretty clear indication that "god or the gods" were not happy with Pilate's action.

Yet....not a word. Clearly, the story of Jesus had not been invented in 40 CE!!
 
So I would present an alternative to Historicism or Mythicism: Amalgamism. The argument that Jesus is a historical fiction/mythicization of no less than three different persons into a single character.
 
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Yet Philo says not a word about jesus, christianity nor any of the events described in the new testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "jesus christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.
A rather disingenuous argument when you know full well, or would had you read up to this point, that none of your interlocutors are arguing for the historicity of miracles and so forth. And irrelevant in any case, as you still haven't explained why Philo would be expected to write about such things even had he heard about them, to the point that his not mentioning them is proof that they didn't happen. It would not serve any of his interests to repeat such rumors even if he believed them to be true, and he would have had no more reason to assume that said rumors were true than you do. He wasn't there, so all he could have known is the same thing you do: that some people said they had, and others said they hadn't. Why would he voluntarily bring up the matter, when it could only possibly hurt his cause of lessening ethnic tensions in Alexandria?
If Jesus actually healed lots of people, why did he do it? If he did it because he cared about them, why did he only heal a very small fraction of the sick people in the world? If he did it in order to demonstrate his power, why did he restrict demonstrating his power to a very small geographic region in the world? If you rose from the dead, and wanted people to know that you rose from the dead, you would not limit your appearances to just a few people in one small geographic region in the world. There do not seem to be sensible motives for many of the things that JC did, which suggest that he did not do many of the things that the New Testament attributes to him.
Your post here is more or less an admission that you're arguing theology, not history. Didn't you read the manual? Mythicists are supposed to pretend that they're just "following the evidence" of history and coming to the only natural conclusion, not seeking out evidence that supports their religious convictions.
 
Yet Philo says not a word about jesus, christianity nor any of the events described in the new testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "jesus christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.
A rather disingenuous argument when you know full well, or would had you read up to this point, that none of your interlocutors are arguing for the historicity of miracles and so forth. And irrelevant in any case, as you still haven't explained why Philo would be expected to write about such things even had he heard about them, to the point that his not mentioning them is proof that they didn't happen. It would not serve any of his interests to repeat such rumors even if he believed them to be true, and he would have had no more reason to assume that said rumors were true than you do. He wasn't there, so all he could have known is the same thing you do: that some people said they had, and others said they hadn't. Why would he voluntarily bring up the matter, when it could only possibly hurt his cause of lessening ethnic tensions in Alexandria?
If Jesus actually healed lots of people, why did he do it? If he did it because he cared about them, why did he only heal a very small fraction of the sick people in the world? If he did it in order to demonstrate his power, why did he restrict demonstrating his power to a very small geographic region in the world? If you rose from the dead, and wanted people to know that you rose from the dead, you would not limit your appearances to just a few people in one small geographic region in the world. There do not seem to be sensible motives for many of the things that JC did, which suggest that he did not do many of the things that the New Testament attributes to him.
Your post here is more or less an admission that you're arguing theology, not history. Didn't you read the manual? Mythicists are supposed to pretend that they're just "following the evidence" of history and coming to the only natural conclusion, not seeking out evidence that supports their religious convictions.
You are not here to judge my understanding and belief. We are talking about a specific topic, which is that no contemporary history of jesus has proven that this person exists, do not talk outside the scope of the topic. I mentioned many historians who were present at the time and did not document the existence of this so-called jesus.You left all the historians I mentioned, and started talking about Philo of Alexandria only! I don't understand, have you heard about others or are you deliberately ignoring them?!
 
Yet Philo says not a word about jesus, christianity nor any of the events described in the new testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "jesus christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.
A rather disingenuous argument when you know full well, or would had you read up to this point, that none of your interlocutors are arguing for the historicity of miracles and so forth. And irrelevant in any case, as you still haven't explained why Philo would be expected to write about such things even had he heard about them, to the point that his not mentioning them is proof that they didn't happen. It would not serve any of his interests to repeat such rumors even if he believed them to be true, and he would have had no more reason to assume that said rumors were true than you do. He wasn't there, so all he could have known is the same thing you do: that some people said they had, and others said they hadn't. Why would he voluntarily bring up the matter, when it could only possibly hurt his cause of lessening ethnic tensions in Alexandria?
If Jesus actually healed lots of people, why did he do it? If he did it because he cared about them, why did he only heal a very small fraction of the sick people in the world? If he did it in order to demonstrate his power, why did he restrict demonstrating his power to a very small geographic region in the world? If you rose from the dead, and wanted people to know that you rose from the dead, you would not limit your appearances to just a few people in one small geographic region in the world. There do not seem to be sensible motives for many of the things that JC did, which suggest that he did not do many of the things that the New Testament attributes to him.
Your post here is more or less an admission that you're arguing theology, not history. Didn't you read the manual? Mythicists are supposed to pretend that they're just "following the evidence" of history and coming to the only natural conclusion, not seeking out evidence that supports their religious convictions.
You are not here to judge my understanding and belief. We are talking about a specific topic, which is that no contemporary history of jesus has proven that this person exists, do not talk outside the scope of the topic. I mentioned many historians who were present at the time and did not document the existence of this so-called jesus.You left all the historians I mentioned, and started talking about Philo of Alexandria only! I don't understand, have you heard about others or are you deliberately ignoring them?!
It almost seems like there is a persistent misunderstanding of what is meant by "this person doesn't exist", insofar as it's understated and lost in the din often enough that this doesn't mean no people named Jesus existed across the time, but rather that none of these persons actually matches the account given in GMark, but that it does match pieces of all of them, with a lot of more fantastical shit sprinkled in.
 
Yet Philo says not a word about jesus, christianity nor any of the events described in the new testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "jesus christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.
A rather disingenuous argument when you know full well, or would had you read up to this point, that none of your interlocutors are arguing for the historicity of miracles and so forth. And irrelevant in any case, as you still haven't explained why Philo would be expected to write about such things even had he heard about them, to the point that his not mentioning them is proof that they didn't happen. It would not serve any of his interests to repeat such rumors even if he believed them to be true, and he would have had no more reason to assume that said rumors were true than you do. He wasn't there, so all he could have known is the same thing you do: that some people said they had, and others said they hadn't. Why would he voluntarily bring up the matter, when it could only possibly hurt his cause of lessening ethnic tensions in Alexandria?
If Jesus actually healed lots of people, why did he do it? If he did it because he cared about them, why did he only heal a very small fraction of the sick people in the world? If he did it in order to demonstrate his power, why did he restrict demonstrating his power to a very small geographic region in the world? If you rose from the dead, and wanted people to know that you rose from the dead, you would not limit your appearances to just a few people in one small geographic region in the world. There do not seem to be sensible motives for many of the things that JC did, which suggest that he did not do many of the things that the New Testament attributes to him.
Your post here is more or less an admission that you're arguing theology, not history. Didn't you read the manual? Mythicists are supposed to pretend that they're just "following the evidence" of history and coming to the only natural conclusion, not seeking out evidence that supports their religious convictions.
You are not here to judge my understanding and belief.

Then don't present them as evidence. What do your thoughts on theology have to do with what is or isn't there in the historical record?

We are talking about a specific topic, which is that no contemporary history of jesus has proven that this person exists, do not talk outside the scope of the topic. I mentioned many historians who were present at the time and did not document the existence of this so-called jesus.You left all the historians I mentioned, and started talking about Philo of Alexandria only! I don't understand, have you heard about others or are you deliberately ignoring them?!
You mentioned one historian, two philosophers, and a bunch of poets, actually. I attempted to address the question of the only historian on the list (Valerius Maximus), and you changed the subject to Philo. So I asked some pretty basic questions about Philo, and you responded with a bunch of theological nonsense about the Jesus story. If you want to be taken seriously, defend your evidence rather than changing the subject whenever it is questioned.
 
For example, but not limited to the number of historians contemporaneous with him or those who came immediately after him, and did not mention his story, even casually:

10- Quintilien (first century AD) .
11- Roman poet Flaccus (1st century AD).
12- Roman poet and politician Silius Italicus (1st century AD) .
13- The Greek philosopher Plutarque (46-125 AD) does not know anything about Jesus either, especially in his book “The Similar Lives of Famous Personalities.”
 
Yet Philo says not a word about jesus, christianity nor any of the events described in the new testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "jesus christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.
A rather disingenuous argument when you know full well, or would had you read up to this point, that none of your interlocutors are arguing for the historicity of miracles and so forth. And irrelevant in any case, as you still haven't explained why Philo would be expected to write about such things even had he heard about them, to the point that his not mentioning them is proof that they didn't happen. It would not serve any of his interests to repeat such rumors even if he believed them to be true, and he would have had no more reason to assume that said rumors were true than you do. He wasn't there, so all he could have known is the same thing you do: that some people said they had, and others said they hadn't. Why would he voluntarily bring up the matter, when it could only possibly hurt his cause of lessening ethnic tensions in Alexandria?
If Jesus actually healed lots of people, why did he do it? If he did it because he cared about them, why did he only heal a very small fraction of the sick people in the world? If he did it in order to demonstrate his power, why did he restrict demonstrating his power to a very small geographic region in the world? If you rose from the dead, and wanted people to know that you rose from the dead, you would not limit your appearances to just a few people in one small geographic region in the world. There do not seem to be sensible motives for many of the things that JC did, which suggest that he did not do many of the things that the New Testament attributes to him.
Your post here is more or less an admission that you're arguing theology, not history. Didn't you read the manual? Mythicists are supposed to pretend that they're just "following the evidence" of history and coming to the only natural conclusion, not seeking out evidence that supports their religious convictions.
You are not here to judge my understanding and belief. We are talking about a specific topic, which is that no contemporary history of jesus has proven that this person exists, do not talk outside the scope of the topic. I mentioned many historians who were present at the time and did not document the existence of this so-called jesus.You left all the historians I mentioned, and started talking about Philo of Alexandria only! I don't understand, have you heard about others or are you deliberately ignoring them?!
It almost seems like there is a persistent misunderstanding of what is meant by "this person doesn't exist", insofar as it's understated and lost in the din often enough that this doesn't mean no people named Jesus existed across the time, but rather that none of these persons actually matches the account given in GMark, but that it does match pieces of all of them, with a lot of more fantastical shit sprinkled in.
Considering jesus a fictitious person is something that has historical backing, and I mentioned, for example, the number of historians who were contemporary to him or who came immediately after him, and they did not mention his story, even casually.
 
Yet Philo says not a word about jesus, christianity nor any of the events described in the new testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "jesus christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.
A rather disingenuous argument when you know full well, or would had you read up to this point, that none of your interlocutors are arguing for the historicity of miracles and so forth. And irrelevant in any case, as you still haven't explained why Philo would be expected to write about such things even had he heard about them, to the point that his not mentioning them is proof that they didn't happen. It would not serve any of his interests to repeat such rumors even if he believed them to be true, and he would have had no more reason to assume that said rumors were true than you do. He wasn't there, so all he could have known is the same thing you do: that some people said they had, and others said they hadn't. Why would he voluntarily bring up the matter, when it could only possibly hurt his cause of lessening ethnic tensions in Alexandria?
If Jesus actually healed lots of people, why did he do it? If he did it because he cared about them, why did he only heal a very small fraction of the sick people in the world? If he did it in order to demonstrate his power, why did he restrict demonstrating his power to a very small geographic region in the world? If you rose from the dead, and wanted people to know that you rose from the dead, you would not limit your appearances to just a few people in one small geographic region in the world. There do not seem to be sensible motives for many of the things that JC did, which suggest that he did not do many of the things that the New Testament attributes to him.
Your post here is more or less an admission that you're arguing theology, not history. Didn't you read the manual? Mythicists are supposed to pretend that they're just "following the evidence" of history and coming to the only natural conclusion, not seeking out evidence that supports their religious convictions.
You are not here to judge my understanding and belief. We are talking about a specific topic, which is that no contemporary history of jesus has proven that this person exists, do not talk outside the scope of the topic. I mentioned many historians who were present at the time and did not document the existence of this so-called jesus.You left all the historians I mentioned, and started talking about Philo of Alexandria only! I don't understand, have you heard about others or are you deliberately ignoring them?!
It almost seems like there is a persistent misunderstanding of what is meant by "this person doesn't exist", insofar as it's understated and lost in the din often enough that this doesn't mean no people named Jesus existed across the time, but rather that none of these persons actually matches the account given in GMark, but that it does match pieces of all of them, with a lot of more fantastical shit sprinkled in.
Considering jesus a fictitious person is something that has historical backing, and I mentioned, for example, the number of historians who were contemporary to him or who came immediately after him, and they did not mention his story, even casually.
There were three Jesuses discussed by various sources. There is Chrestus, the Yeshu whose followers apparently caused the fires, thereis Ananus who got stoned by a catapult after going on a tear in the 130's, and then Yeshu 'Bin Stada', who came after Ananus.

This last one has the closest story as far as the origin; the first one was contemporary to 0ce events and I'm pretty sure was executed; the middle one was well known.

I understand it as a peasant lore phenomena. First, a guy starts an insurrectionist cult, people stop using their name because people like Paul exist to deal with such, Paul breaths some new life... As new Jesuses come along people start to confuse them.

Eventually someone from outside of or the edge of the culture, Steve's "Roman", "Mark" comes along, does digging on all the sources, and makes an amalgam based on the intersection of a number of historical persons.

The whole thing is plausible that the Jesus cult scene circa 190-250 would lap that shit up. And let's be clear, no less than three people liable to pick up followers and generate cultists.
 
So I would present an alternative to Historicism or Mythicism: Amalgamism. The argument that Jesus is a historical fiction/mythicization of no less than three different persons into a single character.

@Swammerdami
  • Amalgamism is certainly as plausible as Mythicism and is a cogent rebuttal to the following:
I have never offered any "proof" for historicity besides Occam's Razor.

But consider this:

[. . .]

And the apparently authentic Paul writes about Christians in Rome in the time of Nero. Yet mythicists insist those weren't Christians, they were Chrestians — some other group. Aren't there any mythicists here who will stipulate that this seems a bit disingenuous?

The century prior to the Fall of Jerusalem was filled with insurrections against Rome. There are a dozen or more insurrectionists who had much more vivid and more significant roles than the historic Jesus. How well represented are they in contemporary documents?

[. . .]

[M]ythicists are unable, as far as I can tell, to come up with any scenario with enough detail to be evaluated. When you mythicists decide whether Paul's Christians in Rome 64 AD were the same group as Tacitus' Chrestians in Rome 64 AD, let me know!
 
For example, but not limited to the number of historians contemporaneous with him or those who came immediately after him, and did not mention his story, even casually:

10- Quintilien (first century AD) .
11- Roman poet Flaccus (1st century AD).
12- Roman poet and politician Silius Italicus (1st century AD) .
13- The Greek philosopher Plutarque (46-125 AD) does not know anything about Jesus either, especially in his book “The Similar Lives of Famous Personalities.”
Yet another subject change.

And another list of people who weren't historians and did not write anything about 1st century Judea one way or the next.

Listing a bunch of bullet points does not help your cause, if none of those bullet points strongly support your point. Anyone can write an ill-thought out Buzzfeed list, it's a bit more work to construct a convincing historical argument.

Let's look at Quintillian.

Which chapter of Institutio Oratoria, specifically, do you believe Jesus naturally ought to have been mentioned in? To which chapter would a mention of Jesus been in any way relevant? Which other historical figures do you consider to have been mythical on the basis of not having been mentioned in this text on oratorical rhetoric?

Then Flaccus.

Why would Jesus have been mentioned in an epic poem about Jason and the Argonauts, which is the only extant work from this poet? Can you give me any rational explanation for why he would have been? And you fail to mention, in any case, that since we have only four folios of this once much longer work, we cannot comment reasonably on what wasn't included in the autograph. For all we know, there was in fact a passage where Flaccus wrote "And then Jason and the boys stopped in Jerusalem for tapas, where by the way Jesus existed many millenia later, go Jesus!" and we would have no way of knowing that this was the case.

Sillus Itallicus.

Same question, why would he have mentioned Jesus in an epic poem about the Punic Wars? And how would we know if he did?

Plutarch is the most meaningful entry on the list, as he did at least do some writing on issues contemporary to his time, and wrote extensively on philosophical issues. Fascinating guy, and a rich window into the Middle Platonic views that clearly influenced the philosophical teachings of both Philo and the early Christians. On the other hand, he was the priest and diviner of an enemy deity, and lived his life ensconced at Delphi, far away from Palestine. Are you suggesting it would have been natural to include a life history of Jesus within and among his catalogue of notable Greeks and Romans? Why? No one is claiming that Jesus was a Greek.
 
So I would present an alternative to Historicism or Mythicism: Amalgamism. The argument that Jesus is a historical fiction/mythicization of no less than three different persons into a single character.

[*]Amalgamism is certainly as plausible as Mythicism and is a cogent rebuttal to the following:

And the apparently authentic Paul writes about Christians in Rome in the time of Nero. Yet mythicists insist those weren't Christians, they were Chrestians — some other group. Aren't there any mythicists here who will stipulate that this seems a bit disingenuous?
. . .
[M]ythicists are unable, as far as I can tell, to come up with any scenario with enough detail to be evaluated. When you mythicists decide whether Paul's Christians in Rome 64 AD were the same group as Tacitus' Chrestians in Rome 64 AD, let me know!

Is it too much trouble for you to connect the dots for me here? Were Paul's Christians and Tacitus' Chrestians — both persecuted in Rome by Nero — the same people or not? What does Amalgamism have to do with this?
 
So I would present an alternative to Historicism or Mythicism: Amalgamism. The argument that Jesus is a historical fiction/mythicization of no less than three different persons into a single character.

[*]Amalgamism is certainly as plausible as Mythicism and is a cogent rebuttal to the following:

And the apparently authentic Paul writes about Christians in Rome in the time of Nero. Yet mythicists insist those weren't Christians, they were Chrestians — some other group. Aren't there any mythicists here who will stipulate that this seems a bit disingenuous?
. . .
[M]ythicists are unable, as far as I can tell, to come up with any scenario with enough detail to be evaluated. When you mythicists decide whether Paul's Christians in Rome 64 AD were the same group as Tacitus' Chrestians in Rome 64 AD, let me know!

Is it too much trouble for you to connect the dots for me here? Were Paul's Christians and Tacitus' Chrestians — both persecuted in Rome by Nero — the same people or not? What does Amalgamism have to do with this?
I expect Paul's Chrestians were everyone else's Chrestians, seeing as there is significant fairly sound argument upthread to that effect.

Following the fires, in the 60's to the 110's there would have been a significant cult to Chrestus, since he was a successful insurrectionist.

But this person was NOT Yeshu Ben Stada, son of Miriam of an infidelity who was more contemporary to when the Amalgamist recognizes is suspiciously close to the expected first penning of GMark.

Thus Paul would exist BEFORE the penning of the gospels.

It would just happen that because of the preservation of these letters, a historical revisionism could happen as additional Yeshu's amalgamated parts of their own stories to the cult lore merely by living in Jerusalem, being crazy, and being named Yeshu.
 

Is it too much trouble for you to connect the dots for me here? Were Paul's Christians and Tacitus' Chrestians — both persecuted in Rome by Nero — the same people or not? What does Amalgamism have to do with this?
I expect Paul's Chrestians were everyone else's Chrestians, seeing as there is significant fairly sound argument upthread to that effect.

Following the fires, in the 60's to the 110's there would have been a significant cult to Chrestus, since he was a successful insurrectionist.

But this person was NOT Yeshu Ben Stada, son of Miriam of an infidelity who was more contemporary to when the Amalgamist recognizes is suspiciously close to the expected first penning of GMark.

Thus Paul would exist BEFORE the penning of the gospels.

It would just happen that because of the preservation of these letters, a historical revisionism could happen as additional Yeshu's amalgamated parts of their own stories to the cult lore merely by living in Jerusalem, being crazy, and being named Yeshu.

Also:
Any genuine use of “called Christ”, “called Chrestus”, etc. is not obviously an automatic link to Jesus of Nazareth; there were many Jesuses in 1st century Palestine, and perhaps a few of them claimed to be or were perceived as being Messiahs. It cannot be reasonably assumed that any Jesus or Joshua who is called a Messiah or Christ must relate to the allegedly historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth—since a purely historical Jesus of Nazareth (sans miracles and divinity) is a virtually insignificant historical figure, barely mentioned, if at all, in contemporary or near-contemporary historical accounts.

Why should we expect an itemized catalogue of every Christ, Chrestus, Messiah, Jesus, Joseph that was a virtually insignificant historical figure put to death.

Rather, we should expect an Amalgamist mythology!

Jesus (or Joshua) and James (or Jacob) are very common Jewish names, and there are quite a few people named Jesus mentioned in the works of Josephus.
  • Carrier, Richard (2020). Jesus from Outer Space: What the Earliest Christians Really Believed about Christ. Pitchstone Publishing. ISBN 978-1-63431-208-0.
Of course, there were thousands of men named Jesus in every generation of Jews. It was one of the most common Jewish names (it’s actually, in fact, the name Joshua). And there were surely many men so named who were executed by Pontius Pilate or any Jewish court in any decade you choose. So we aren't asking about whether some Jesus got himself executed. We are asking specifically about the Jesus whose execution launched the Christian religion. And in that role, Jesus might not even have been his original name, but a name assigned him after his death. The name means, after all, “God’s Savior.” Most scholars already conclude he was not called Christ, from the Greek for Messiah (literally, “an anointed one,” hence “chosen one”), until after his death. The same may be true of “Jesus.” If after his martyrdom his closest followers, reassured by dreams and visions of his spiritual victory, started calling him “God's Savior and Messiah,” they would be calling him “Jesus Christ.” So he might not have even originally been called Jesus!

Yes indeed
How many Romans mention Hillel or Shammai, the two most famous Jews of the day? And people wonder why they don't mention a scruffy rebel from up-country?

There were lots of blokes named Jesus being whacked by the Romans. Why should we believe there's a story about a particular one?
Well per HJ scholars; "Have faith in our superior consensus and flawless historical methodology!"
 
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Is it too much trouble for you to connect the dots for me here? Were Paul's Christians and Tacitus' Chrestians — both persecuted in Rome by Nero — the same people or not? What does Amalgamism have to do with this?
I expect Paul's Chrestians were everyone else's Chrestians, seeing as there is significant fairly sound argument upthread to that effect.

Following the fires, in the 60's to the 110's there would have been a significant cult to Chrestus, since he was a successful insurrectionist.

But this person was NOT Yeshu Ben Stada, son of Miriam of an infidelity who was more contemporary to when the Amalgamist recognizes is suspiciously close to the expected first penning of GMark.

Thus Paul would exist BEFORE the penning of the gospels.

It would just happen that because of the preservation of these letters, a historical revisionism could happen as additional Yeshu's amalgamated parts of their own stories to the cult lore merely by living in Jerusalem, being crazy, and being named Yeshu.

Also:
Any genuine use of “called Christ”, “called Chrestus”, etc. is not obviously an automatic link to Jesus of Nazareth; there were many Jesuses in 1st century Palestine, and perhaps a few of them claimed to be or were perceived as being Messiahs. It cannot be reasonably assumed that any Jesus or Joshua who is called a Messiah or Christ must relate to the allegedly historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth—since a
purely historical Jesus of Nazareth (sans miracles and divinity) is a virtually insignificant historical figure, barely mentioned, if at all, in contemporary or near-contemporary historical accounts
.

Why should we expect an itemized catalogue of every Christ, Chrestus, Messiah, Jesus, Joseph that was a virtually insignificant historical figure put to death.

Rather, we should expect an Amalgamist mythology!

Jesus (or Joshua) and James (or Jacob) are very common Jewish names, and there are quite a few people named Jesus mentioned in the works of Josephus.
  • Carrier, Richard (2020). Jesus from Outer Space: What the Earliest Christians Really Believed about Christ. Pitchstone Publishing. ISBN 978-1-63431-208-0.
Of course, there were thousands of men named Jesus in every generation of Jews. It was one of the most common Jewish names (it’s actually, in fact, the name Joshua). And there were surely many men so named who were executed by Pontius Pilate or any Jewish court in any decade you choose. So we aren't asking about whether some Jesus got himself executed. We are asking specifically about the Jesus whose execution launched the Christian religion. And in that role, Jesus might not even have been his original name, but a name assigned him after his death. The name means, after all, “God’s Savior.” Most scholars already conclude he was not called Christ, from the Greek for Messiah (literally, “an anointed one,” hence “chosen one”), until after his death. The same may be true of “Jesus.” If after his martyrdom his closest followers, reassured by dreams and visions of his spiritual victory, started calling him “God's Savior and Messiah,” they would be calling him “Jesus Christ.” So he might not have even originally been called Jesus!
And as noted, there is Josh Ben Stada of Nazareth, son of Miriam, contemporary near the expected origin of GMark, who lived mid-late? 1st century?

He apparently did have some friends and he was executed by "hanging".

If one is to believe Rabbinical lore.

But this is NOT Josh Crestus of Paul's Chrestian movement and the related cult.

It's very possible that Yeshu Ben Stada won the game of musical Messiahs, the last one to get immortalized as sitting in that chair and inheriting all the stories of the earlier ones and being back-dated to the first.
LoL, Josh...
 
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