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The Christ Myth Theory

I listed to a BBC radio show om the ancient Cynics, not to be confused with modern cynicism. They aper tohave been a mix of Libertrinaism and a back to nature philosophy. They rejected authority and Greek norms, and lived as simply as possible.

There is a myth of Alexander going to see Diogenes. The story goes Alexander impressed by his attitude offered him anything. Designes said you are blocking my sunlight.

Whether it happened or not, as a myth it represents the views of Cynics of the day. They lived simply, did not cut hair and rejected fixed homes. Diogenes is saying even Alexander does not own or control nature.

To me the same as the Jesus crucifixion and resurrection myth. It tells the narrative.

The Diogenes meets Alexander nyth was carried forward in history to the Romans. Like Jesus it took on a life of its own in te retelling and interpretation. Like Jesus there are no surviving writings attributed to Diogenes.

 
Upcoming Book: Vinzent, Markus (2023). Resetting the Origins of Christianity: A New Theory of Sources and Beginnings. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-009-29048-7.
  • “Marcion And The Dating Of The Synoptic Gospels – Professor Markus Vinzent”. YouTube. History Valley. 27 May 2022. Vinzent @time:01:00:04 notes that a core of the Pauline material may have been authored by Marcion and Co.
  • “Marcion’s Origins – Dr. Markus Vinzent”. YouTube. History Valley. 30 September 2022. “Marcion of Sinope was an early Christian theologian in early Christianity. Marcion preached that God had sent Jesus Christ who was an entirely new and distinct from the vengeful God of Israel who had created the world.”
  • “Is Marcions Gospel First? – Dr. Markus Vinzent Vs. Dr. Dennis MacDonald”. YouTube. History Valley. 6 January 2023. “In this video, Dr. Markus Vinzent and Dr. Dennis MacDonald debate on rather Marcions Gospel was written prior to the four canonical Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John."

Mark redacts Marcion’s Gospel and gets rid of the antithesis of Christianity and Judaism, although he still shows and maintains a number of other Marcionite features.

—Vinzent (17 November 2014). “What is the relation between Mark, ‘canonizer of Paul’, and Marcion’s Gospel?”. Markus Vinzent’s Blog.
 
I have few disagreements with Walsh; and those are relatively trivial. And even where we disagree, she ably presents the data, which is of value in itself. The rest of her book is an excellent piece of extended argumentation, more than adequately establishing its case with cited evidence and scholarship throughout. It will not only persuade, but it will educate you on how Biblical studies ended up in the dead-end of romanticism, the pit Walsh is trying to drag it back out of; and on how much can be learned from reversing course back down the path of understanding the Gospels that we should have been on all along. Anyone who wants to better understand who the authors of the Gospels were in general, what their techniques and agendas and literary environments would have been like that influenced their every decision in constructing those texts, simply must read this book. As must anyone who wishes to resist its thesis and insist the Gospels are collections of oral lore and not the deliberate creative products of individual, elite authors; or insist the Gospels are unique and special, rather than quite typical examples of popular counter-cultural fiction of the time. If that is you, and you are the sort of person who responds rationally to evidence and argument, this book will disabuse you of those notions.

—Carrier (9 January 2023). “Robyn Faith Walsh and the Gospels as Literature”. Richard Carrier Blogs.
n.b. Walsh also argues that Paul uses “middle platonic” philosophy. Cf. Walsh, Robyn Faith (2021). The Origins of Early Christian Literature: Contextualizing the New Testament within Greco-Roman Literary Culture. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-108-83530-5. (Middle Platonism & Paul the Apostle: pp. 7, 126, 192)

• “Book Talk with Robyn Walsh: Contextualizing the New Testament within Greco-Roman Literary Culture”. YouTube. UMHumanities. 18 October 2021. “Videos produced by the College of Arts and Sciences Center for the Humanities at the University of Miami. Series of Book Talks, Insight Tracks, and Roundtable discussions during conferences and symposia.”

• “Robyn Walsh, ‘The Origins of Early Christian Literature'”. YouTube. Faculty of Divinity, University of Cambridge. 21 March 2022.

• “Did The Greco-Roman Elite Class Write The Gospels?! – Professor Robyn Faith Walsh”. YouTube. History Valley. 24 May 2022.
[2:12] …I consider [the gospel authors] elite culture or elite persons within a particular you know stratum of culture .. those who have access to what’s called Paideia, so advanced education in the ancient world, and the number of people who actually had that kind of advanced education was really really narrow…

[22:01] [Q: What else what led you to the conclusion that it’s possible that Christians actually didn’t write the gospels]

Well this is something that I’ve been a little surprised that people have taken away from the book, because what I say in the book is that I’m interested in what’s the most formative group that we can attribute the content of the gospels to…
 
[T]here are a number of alternative suggestions for how the Jesus belief originated. If we were to compare any of them–the ones in our anthology, along with several others–they are far and away eminently more reasonable than the traditional “historical” Jesus we find in the canonical gospels. Again, any reasonable version of Jesus that does not accept the traditional view, where Jesus was born from a virgin, blah blah, and blah blah, are more reasonable than the traditional one. Period.
Oh, and one final thingy. While I think Jesus mythicism is justified by the lack of evidence, I never did a Bayesian calculation on that hypothesis. So I never assigned any probability to it. I take it the agnostic view would be represented by a 45% to 55% probability (no agnostic stays exactly on 50% all of the time). So if I were to come up with my own probability, even after reading what MacDonald wrote, it would be somewhere around a 60-65% chance that Jesus is a mythical creation. That means I’m about 5% to 10% off from being an agnostic on the question whether there was a historical figure who formed the basis of the Jesus we find in the New Testament. There are no black or whites with me. How about you? Keep in mind, any imagined, fictional, or mythical Jesus has to include some understanding of a specific human person, or a conglomerate of human persons.


—John W. Loftus (1/08/2023). “Who Was Jesus? Lunatic, Liar, Failed Prophet, Cynic, Sage, Celestrial Being…Debunking Christianity

One way to look at it, probably the best way, is to ask ourselves how much of the Jesus we see in the New Testament is mythical? Of all the tales we read about Jesus, how much is made up, or borrowed, or based on faked OT prophecy? I’d say a great deal is mythical at the very very best. At the very least, there’s no way at all to corroborate the tales! That alone makes me a Jesus mythicist. Am I right or am I right?


John W. Loftus – American teacher of apologetics, philosophy, critical thinking, ethics and writer.[60]

[T]he Jews saw predictions every where in the writings of their prophets and poets, and discovered types of the Messiah in all the lives of holy men recorded in their Scriptures; when we find details in the life of Jesus evidently sketched after the pattern of these prophecies and prototypes, we cannot but suspect that they are rather mythical than historical.

(p. 73)

—Strauss, David Friedrich (1860) [1835]. The Life of Jesus: Critically Examined. 1. New York: Calvin Blanchard.

[A]lmost every story in the Gospels (and Acts) can be plausibly argued to be borrowed from the Greek Old Testament, Homer, or Euripides.

(p. 425)

—Price, Robert M. (2011). The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems. American Atheist Press. ISBN 978-1-57884-017-5.
 
Hansen is also correct that (emphasis mine) “the question of whether or not Jesus existed should be answered first, to know what direction this quest,” the quest for the truth of Christian origins, “is to take with regard to the methods and assumptions that it will be based on.” That is definitely true. It’s the very point I made in the final section of OHJ (Ch. 12.5). Admitting that this question actually has to be shored up now is quite a concession for a historicist today; Hansen is basically surrendering to the fact that mythicism is a respectable argument now, one that actually needs to be addressed and hasn’t been yet. This is quite a turn from “that’s ridiculous, no one takes that seriously” (dozens of experts take it seriously).


—Carrier (22 January 2023). "Chrissy Hansen on the Pre-Existent Jesus". Richard Carrier Blogs.

[T]he entire history of Christianity, its origins, and the origins and original meaning of its scriptures, entirely depends on the question of historicity. That is beyond trivial.
So how do we proceed? We should start by examining the best case for both sides. And see which side has the sounder premises and logic, when everything is added up, nothing straw-manned, nothing swept under the rug. When all fallacies and falsehoods removed, from both sides, what remains? . . . We may end up simply not knowing whether Jesus really existed or not. But I put it to you, that an honest and unbiased inquiry, will not end up in certainty that he did.
Richard Carrier[1]
 
I recntly watched a short seies on some of well known 19th century wrerb figures, like Wyat Earp.

Earp lived long enough to see the first talking movies abiut his exploits. He appoched Hollywood saying it was all bullshit and wnated to make a mvie about hoiw ir really was, and was rejected.

The myts of iconic wetern figures like Earp were created by east coast pulp fiction writers.

Sine the first talking movies through modern times there has been a series of movies Earp Earp,his broters, Doc Holiday, and the gunfight at the OK corral. Fictional dialofs and p[ortryal of a persona based more on modern times than any 19th cnetry person in the west. Each actor in turn gneration to generation portrays Earp in IMO a imcreasingly goofy way.

The gospel Jesus is a fictional representation of what somebody thought Jesus should have been. Probably not a Jew.

When you watch all the Wyatt Earp movies you do not see 'Wyat Earp', you see Kevin Kostner, Kurt Russ, Burt Lancaster, and others acting out what they think the west was like. Yiu see ther personalities.

The popular movie Patton has Gearge C Scott playing Patton. From what I read nothing li Patton. Patton had a high piched voice a litlle nasal and a hint of a lisp.

To may George Scott is Patton.
 
Among the texts of the Dead Sea Scrolls are found at least three different types of messiah

1. the royal messiah, the branch or offspring of David, who is accompanied by a prophetic figure who is an interpreter of the law
2. the priestly messiah, an ideal priest from the line of Aaron

In some scrolls these two messiahs appear together. They are perhaps the idealistic corrective to historical kings and priests who were considered corrupt.

3. a “Son of God” figure, “probably a unique celestial figure”, appears to be divine, without a name assigned although in other manuscripts he is given the name Melchisedech, the agent of divine judgment against evil.

André Paul (whom NC is quoting) concludes that these three messianic figures were part of Jewish thinking in the century or century and a half preceding the time of Jesus of Nazareth.

Pre-Christian Jewish thought about these three different messiahs drew upon Scriptures to flesh out what they were to accomplish. The promise Nathan made to David in 2 Samuel 7 that his throne would endure “forever”, and the prophecy in Isaiah 11:1-5 that a “branch will arise from the stump of Jesse”, and that of Isaiah 61:1 that “he will heal the wounded and revive the dead and proclaim the good news and invite the hungry to feast”, and many others, were applied to their respective messiahs.

One striking example outside the biblical texts is found in the Messianic Apocalypse of the Dead Sea Scrolls. To translate Andre Paul’s observation (quoted by NC):

We are struck by the astonishing relationship between this description of future blessings linked to the coming of the Messiah and Jesus ‘answer to John the Baptist’s question in the Gospels:’ “The blind see, the lame walk ” (Matthew 11, 5 and Luke 7, 22). […] A tradition identifiable in other writings of ancient Judaism serves as their common basis.

The gospel authors were doing what Jewish writers before them had done. They were creating their messiah by pastiching different passages from the Scriptures.


—Godfrey, Neil (3 January 2021). "Jesus embodies all the Jewish Messiahs -- continuing Jésus-Christ, Sublime Figure de Papier". Vridar.
The significance of all this for the origins of Christian beliefs about Jesus Christ as Logos, mediator, creator, etc scarcely needs to be pointed out.


—Godfrey, Neil (2 December 2010). "The Second God among Ancient Jewish Philosophers and Commoners". Vridar.
 
The significance of all this for the origins of Christian beliefs about Jesus Christ as Logos, mediator, creator, etc scarcely needs to be pointed out.

No one has ever encountered a dragon. Dragon's aren't real, as any sensible person knows. But a dragon has many parts that are quite real. The dragon has wings, scales, teeth, eyes. It breathes, it flies. It even has the ability to make fire. But despite all these real features there is no historical dragon.

Or is there? Some among us might point to the historical dragon in human history, that encounter with something, something they perceived as dragon-like. This is undoubtedly how the Jesus legend endures. Men are at least real, therefore there is an historical Jesus. There must be, somewhere, somehow.
 
Negative demiurgy is an interesting term that Litwa has coined to demote the negative, the 'evil', aspect that can be discerned in the OT concept of god.
  • Plutarch imparts "Negative Demiurgy" to third-god.
If the human soul reflects the nature of the world soul, then also in the latter even when rationality prevails, when the cosmos comes into being, there is room for disharmony and disorder. This is evidenced by occurrences of badness in the world, such as accidents, natural catastrophes, etc. If there is no such non-rational aspect in the world soul, then either God must be ultimately accountable for such phenomena, which is what the Stoics maintain – and this, argues Plutarch, hardly fits God's goodness (De an. procr. 1015A–B) – or they must happen without cause, as the Epicureans maintain, which then diminishes God's ruling power (ibid. 1015C). Better to think that such occurences are caused by the non-rational aspect of the world soul [i.e. negative demiurgy].


--Karamanolis, George (2020). "Plutarch". The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
  • Plutarch imparts a mediator status to second-god.
[A] pre-cosmic soul is needed to play the role of mediator between God and matter (De an. procr. 1015B, 1024C; cf. Timaeus 35a), which is required in order to maintain God's transcendence, goodness, and purity, since matter, because of its inherent disorderliness and badness, pollutes and taints, and thus is hardly worthy of God (cf. Numenius fr. 52.37–39 Des Places; see also below, sect. 4.3).


--Karamanolis, George (2020). "Plutarch". The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

Marcion, perhaps aware of Plutarch, held that third-god (identified with the Hebrew God) manifested "Negative Demiurgy" and the Jews were ignorant of first-god and second-god.
  • It is possible that Paul originaly commented on third-god and then said commentary was redacted by anti-Marcionite editors.



A major debate in early Christian dogmatics was over whether the pre-existent Christ could be classified as “a creature”
Not in the first generation. There was no dispute that he was a creature then (hence Colossians 1:15, though a late first century forgery yet still reflecting Pauline belief: Jesus was the firstborn of all creation, i.e. the first created being; this is also discussed in Philo regarding the archangel of many names).
The idea that he wasn’t created was a much later sectarian-dogmatic development that culminated in the Council of Nicea. The best brief on this story I ever read was Ehrman’s chapter on it near the end of his book How Jesus Became God. Pretty much all scholars who aren’t fundamentalists concur.
Note that nothing in the New Testament says otherwise. For example, careful readers of John 1:1 will note “the Logos was God” is in the past tense. This refers to standard Jewish emanation theory, whereby all the archangels (including the Logos) began as parts of God and were separated out of God (“emanated”) into specific creatures, “the archangels.” Thus all archangels were once God, as in, were once a part of his ontological substance, but at that time they weren’t archangels, they didn’t exist as separate beings. The moment they did come to exist as separate beings, as archangels, they no longer were “in God” and thus no longer God. So John 1 isn’t saying anything any Jewish angelologist would have objected to.

If Word means the rational order of the cosmos, analogous to the laws of physics, it is confusing and wrong to describe these laws as an entity.
Jewish angelology, deriving from Zoroastrian angelology (ditto their demonology), tracked pagan polytheism: each “god” (i.e. “angel” or “archangel,” since monolatry forbade assigning them the honorific term “god” but ontologically there is no difference between angels and other subordinate gods in any pantheon) had “an assignment.” Each commanded some aspect of the universe, and indeed their names often indicated their sphere.
The atheistic view that these are just metaphors for mindless forces and the like was scorned as sacrilegious by the believing (there is a really good survey of this fact in Plutarch’s On Isis and Osiris; Plutarch likewise scoffs at the atheists and sides with the theological realists). Among believers, these were actual real personifications taking charge of those forces and things. This is why Paul speaks of “the elements of this world” as intelligent, demonic entities. He means that literally. I have a whole section on this in OHJ with citations and examples, and scholarship cited (Element 36 and 37, Ch. 5).
So, the Logos, as Philo explains, is not just a metaphor for God’s “Reason,” God actually emanated it into an actual entity, “caused it to rise up as his firstborn son,” who is assigned top-ranking roles: commander of the cosmos, high priest of the celestial temple (the true one on high that the Bible says God showed Moses and that Moses used to construct the tabernacle as a cheap copy), and so on.
This entity was sometimes linked to Michael (whose name means “Who is like God,” i.e. the Image or Form of God) and the Metatron (see Was Jesus-Is-Michael an Early Christian Mystery Teaching?). Hence for example, Jewish angelology typically held that all the cases where God is seen or physically interacted with in the Bible (the burning bush, the man Jacob wrestles originating the very name Israel, “he who wrestles with God,” the entity whose backside Moses peaks at on the mountain; yes, these are all things that actually happen in the Bible) that is actually The Angel of the Presence (Metatron), variously assumed to be Michael or Gabriel, whom God “speaks through” or “acts through” like a musical instrument.

The high theology of monotheism is about providing a consistent and coherent systematic explanation of reality.
That didn’t exist in antiquity. It was largely an invention of the medieval scholastics. In antiquity, in Judaism God is a being who lives in an actual house in outer space, somewhere in between the orbit of Saturn and the outer stars, and who only deigns to interact with the worlds below through agents he operates kind of like Cylons or Surrogates, called “angels” (messengers). There really was a rebellion of these angels (one legion of them under Satan), they really were cast down and locked out of higher orbits by crystal gates that require passwords to open. And so on.
This is not the abstract theism of modern Christianity. No such thing even existed then. Ancient monotheism was a bizarre menagerie of weird, incoherent superstitions and whackadoo beliefs. That is what Christianity began as.
So no, when the Christians say Jesus was the firstborn and Lord of all creation, they don’t mean an abstract concept or a metaphor. They mean a literal actual person, with physical location, and supernatural powers. As Philo explains, God can’t deign to get his hands dirty doing stuff, so he delegates. That’s why he made the angels. And thus when Paul says (as Philo says) the first angel created the world, they mean that literally: the entity described as carrying out the acts of creation in Genesis is not God directly, but this angel, carrying out God’s orders.
Likewise, when Paul says the rock that followed Moses in the wilderness was Jesus, he means that literally: Jesus came down to Earth back then and led the Jews as living water from a rock. And so on. (Note that among Jewish exegetes then, that rock was called Mary’s Well, after the sister of Moses, Mary; so the idea of Jesus emanating from Mary is already realized in Paul.)
This is why Marcion could come along and flip the script and claim this angel was actually Yahweh and bad, and the true God above was Jesus trying to break through to us to correct his delegate Yahweh’s mistakes; hence Marcion held that Jesus was the delegator, not the delegatee. This exactly reverses Paul’s theology, which was common Jewish theology, and converts it into a literal anti-semitic Christian sect whereby the Jewish God is essentially evil. These weren’t metaphors. Marcion meant all this literally. So did Paul mean his version literally. And everyone else then.


Richard Carrier January 22, 2023, 8:26 pm

Richard, thanks very much for this considered reply. I was surprised by your contention that Colossians 1:15 says Jesus was the first created being. As you say, it uses the term “first born”, but then goes on to describe Jesus as “before all things”. Literal translations of Col 1:15 state Jesus was first born “over all creation”, meaning he was not a created being himself. The idea in Colossians that Jesus existed before all creation means that Jesus was not considered a created entity within the original Christian theology. That coheres with the logical meaning of Logos, that the rational structure of reality is not itself an entity, but rather how all entities hold together (cf the description of Jesus in these terms in Col 1:17). This is like the law of gravity, which similarly is not an entity.
That is not what “over all creation” can mean there. You seem to have been taken in by some modern specious apologetics.
The Greek says:
prōtotokos (firstborn) pasēs (of all) ktiseōs (creation)
It’s the genitive of “all creation.” That unmistakably can only mean he is of the creation, and was the first within that set. There is no word “over” in the Greek. That is a contentious stretch of the valence of the Greek, to try and scam into the valance of that word in English, which does not exist in the Greek. This is a typical method translators use to fake what the Bible says to agree with their dogmas. But there is no such word, and thus no such valence, in the Greek. The Greek simply says Jesus was the first member of the set “all creation.”



Richard Carrier January 30, 2023, 11:10 pm
 
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I'm an atheist so have no time for gods, sky gods or devils in hell...
What I find interesting is understanding fundamental principles of how human nature operates.

1) our intellect functions by a negative dualism. Old ideas get destroyed and new ideas are born.
2) we live among other humans so need a social code of behaviour.... A positive dualism.
3) interaction, a relationship, between these two principles, produces development in both our intellect and our social environment.

So, three gods, father, son and holy spirit. Indicating that we fashion the gods as reflecting our own human nature. Or simply.... thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis.

Yep, theology has had its field day with these fundamental aspects of our human nature. However, many people today are failing to sing along to its out of tune ancient songbook.

by maryhelena » Fri Feb 24, 2023
 
As for the “Hellenized” Philo, Boyarin points out that he writes of the Logos “as if it were a commonplace”, demonstrating that at least in some quarters of pre-Christian Judaism “there was nothing strange about a doctrine of a manifestation of God, even as a “second God”; the Logos did not conflict with Philo’s idea of monotheism.”

Philo and his Alexandrian Jewish community would have found the “Word of God” frequently in the Septuagint (LXX), where it creates, reveals, and redeems. For example, speaking of the exodus, Philo writes:
whereas the voice of mortals is judged by hearing, the sacred oracles intimate that the words of God (logoi, the plural) are seen as light is seen, for we are told that all of the people saw the Voice [Ex 20.18], not that they heard it; for what was happening was not an impact of air made by the organs of mouth and tongue, but the radiating splendor of virtue indistinguishable from a fountain of reason. . . . But the voice of God which is not that of verbs and names yet seen by the eye of the soul, he [Moses] rightly introduces as “visible.” (Migr. 47–48)
This text draws a close connection between the Logos and light, as in John 1.4–5:
In him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.
John’s Prologue depicts the Logos as both a part of God and as a being separate from God. Compare Philo:

To His Word (Logos), His chief messenger (archangelos), highest in age and honor, the Father (Pater) of all has given the special prerogative, to stand on the border and separate the creature from the Creator. This same [i.e., the Word] both pleads with the immortal as suppliant for afflicted mortality and acts as ambassador of the ruler to the subject. He glories in this prerogative and proudly proclaims, “and I stood between the Lord and you” [Deut 5.5], that is neither uncreated by God, nor created as you, but midway between the two extremes, a surety to both sides. (Heir 205–6)
Philo oscillates on the point of the ambiguity between separate existence of the Logos, God’s Son, and its total incorporation within the godhead. Philo’s Logos is neither just the Wisdom (Gk sophia; Heb okhmah) of the Bible, nor is it quite the Platonic logos, nor the divine Word (Heb davar), but a new synthesis of all of these.
Philo developed the idea of the Logos through biblical images:

The Divine Word (Theios Logos) descends from the fountain of wisdom (Sophia) like a river to lave and water the olympian and celestial shoots and plants of virtue-loving souls which are as a garden. And this Holy Word (Hieros Logos) is separated into four heads, which means that it is split up into the four virtues. . . . It is this Word (Logos) which one of Moses’ company compared to a river, when he said in the Psalms: “the river of God is full of water” (Ps 65.10); where surely it were absurd to use that word literally with reference to rivers of the earth. Instead, as it seems, he represents the Divine Word (Theios Logos) as full of the stream of wisdom (Sophia), with no part empty or devoid of itself . . . inundated through and through and lied up on high by the continuity and unbroken sequence from that ever-flowing fountain. (Dreams 2.242–45)
That’s Philo. Is there anyone else, though?

Other versions of Logos theology, namely notions of the second god as personified Word or Wisdom of God, were present among Aramaic-, Hebrew-, and Syriac-speaking Jews as well.
Boyarim notices hints of this same idea in existing biblical texts:

Proverbs 8:22-31

22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning
, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.
There is also Job 28:12-28, and then the extra-canonical Jewish writings. I have selected the passages that are the more distinctively echoed in the Gospel of John:

  • Sirach 24:1-34,
    • 24:1 Wisdom praises herself,
      and tells of her glory in the midst of her people.
      2 In the assembly of the Most High she opens her mouth,
      and in the presence of his hosts she tells of her glory:
      3 “I came forth from the mouth of the Most High,
      and covered the earth like a mist.
      4 I dwelt in the highest heavens,
      and my throne was in a pillar of cloud.
      . . . .
      7 . . . I sought a resting place;
      in whose territory should I abide?8 “Then the Creator of all things gave me a command,
      and my Creator chose the place for my tent.
      He said, ‘Make your dwelling in Jacob,
      and in Israel receive your inheritance.’
      9 Before the ages, in the beginning, he created me,
      . . . . 19 “Come to me, you who desire me,
      and eat your fill of my fruits.
      . . . .
      21 Those who eat of me will hunger for more,
      and those who drink of me will thirst for more.
      . . . .
      33 I will again pour out teaching like prophecy,
      and leave it to all future generations.
  • Wisdom of Solomon 7:22-10:21,
    • for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me
      . . . .
      25 For she is a breath of the power of God,
      and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty;
      . . . .
      26 For she is a reflection of eternal light,
      a spotless mirror of the working of God,
      and an image of his goodness.
      . . . .
      in every generation she passes into holy souls
      and makes them friends of God, and prophets;
      . . . .
      Compared with the light she is found to be superior,
      . . . .
      8:3 She glorifies her noble birth by living with God,
      . . . .
      20 or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body [Solomon is claiming to have had pre-existence of some sort?]
      . . . .
      9:4 give me the wisdom that sits by your throne,
      . . . .
      7 You have chosen me to be king of your people
      and to be judge over your sons and daughters.
      . . . .
      9 With you is wisdom, she who knows your works
      and was present when you made the world;
      . . . .
      10 Send her forth from the holy heavens,
      and from the throne of your glory send her,
      . . . .
      10:1 Wisdom protected the first-formed father of the world, when he alone had been created;
      . . . .
      4 When the earth was flooded because of him, wisdom again saved it,
      steering the righteous man by a paltry piece of wood.
      . . . .
      6 Wisdom rescued a righteous man when the ungodly were perishing;
      he escaped the fire that descended on the Five Cities.
      . . . .
      15 A holy people and blameless race
      wisdom delivered from a nation of oppressors.
      16 She entered the soul of a servant of the Lord,
      and withstood dread kings with wonders and signs.
      . . . .
      18 She brought them over the Red Sea,
      and led them through deep waters;
      19 but she drowned their enemies,
      . . . . . .
  • Baruch 3:9-4:4.
    • 31 No one knows the way to her,
      or is concerned about the path to her.
      32 But the one who knows all things knows her,
      . . . .
      33 the one who sends forth the light, and it goes;
      he called it, and it obeyed him, trembling;
      . . . .
      36 He found the whole way to knowledge,
      and gave her to his servant Jacob
      and to Israel, whom he loved.
      37 Afterwards she appeared on earth
      and lived with humankind. 4She is the book of the commandments of God,
      the law that endures for ever.
      All who hold her fast will live,
      and those who forsake her will die.
      2 Turn, O Jacob, and take her;
      walk towards the shining of her light. . . . . .
Especially common is the Aramaic word Memra (“Word”) of God, appearing in the Targumim, the early Aramaic translations and paraphrases of the Bible (e.g., Targum Onqelos, Targum Neofiti), where it is used in contexts that are frequently identical to ones where the Logos has its home among Greek-speaking Jews.
Later rabbinic teachings certainly opposed the Second Temple notions of Logos or Memra by labeling them as the “Two Powers in Heaven” heresy and interpreted Memra as a figure of speech to avoid imputing anthropomorphisms to God, but their polemical efforts betray the existence of an idea among their fellows that they eventually managed to suppress.

[H]istorical investigation suggests that in the first two centuries ce, the Memra was not a mere name, but an actual divine entity functioning as a mediator.
Compare the following roles of the Memra from the Targum with those of the Logos:

  • Creating: Gen 1.3: “And the Memra of H’ (a form of abbreviation for the Divine Name, the Tetragrammaton) said ‘Let there be light’ and there was light by his Memra.”
In each of the following verses, it is the Memra—intimated by the expression “and he said”—that performs all of the creative actions.
  • Speaking to humans: Gen 3.8ff.: “And they heard the voice of the Memra of H’. . . . And the Memra of H’ called out to the Man.”
  • Revealing the Divine Self: Gen 18.1: “And was revealed to him the Memra of H’.”
  • Punishing the wicked: Gen 19.24: “And the Memra of H’ rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah.”
  • Saving: Ex 17.21: “And the Memra of H’ was leading them during the day in a pillar of cloud.”
  • Redeeming: Deut 32.39: “When the Memra of H’ shall be revealed to redeem his people.”
There are many more illustrations of the Targumic parallels with the Logos of Christian theology: see pages 547-8 of Boyarin’s article. These examples culminate with the Palestinian (probably Paschal) liturgical poem on the Four Nights:

Four nights are written in the Book of Memories: The first night: when the Lord was revealed above the world to create it. The world was unformed and void and darkness was spread over the surface of the deep; and through his Memra there was light and illumination, and he called it the first night.
At this point we come to the content in the previous post, The Prologue of the Gospel of John as Jewish Midrash.

I am sure many others like me responded with some “amazement” when we first read the book of Enoch, in particular the Similitudes of Parables of Enoch, and wondered how such literature was accommodated by scholars studying the background to Christianity. Were at least parts of it written by Christians or was it influenced by Christianity? No doubt many others also like me wondered if the works of Margaret Barker on “Israel’s Second God” and her own discussions of the Similitudes in the context of Daniel and other canonical and extra canonical Jewish writings were perhaps seen as somewhat “over the top” by the mainstream biblical scholarship “establishments”.

Anyone interested in reading the argument in greater breadth and depth should download the 40 page article available on researchgate, The Gospel of the Memra: Jewish Binitarianism and the prologue to John.

Philo, writing in first-century ce Alexandria for an audience of Jews devoted to the Bible, uses the idea of the Logos as if it were a commonplace. His writings make apparent that at least for some pre-Christian Judaism, there was nothing strange about a doctrine of a manifestation of God, even as a “second God”; the Logos did not conflict with Philo’s idea of monotheism.


--Godfrey, Neil (26 February 2019). ""Logos, a Jewish Word"". Vridar.
 
N.B.: The original thought of Plato (Platonism_1.0), in the first century CE is revised as Platonism_2.0! And also given the label of "Middle Platonism".

The following overly simplistic video does not distinguish between Platonism_1.0, 2.0, or 3.0. But it does present the conceptual topmost hierarchy of the three gods found in Platonism_2.0 using the analogy of a potter and how the making of a cup represents the understanding of the roles of first, second, and third-god in Middle Platonism.
It would of been easy for Marcion and others to identify the aspects of a creator of a cup with the negative flaws of the world and claim that the Hebrew, Egyptian, etc. gods were all really just the same the third-god of Platonism_2.0. Also known as the demiurge of Gnosticism and sometimes seen as the creator of evil.
  • Thus Marcion's IS XS (i.e. Lord Jesus Christ) is understandable as the second-god of Middle Platonism.
 
So, based on DBZ's posts in conclusion today there is no such thing as a true Christianity that traces back to a single individual ad his 6eachngs? I am truly shocked!
 
I finished posting on the topic of Christian Origins over at SECULAR FRONTIER, which is the blog of Internet Infidels/Secular Web. Here is the index I posted yesterday: https://secularfrontier.infidels.org/2023/03/john-macdonald-christian-origins-index/ . There are lots of posts there by other bloggers and by me on other topics, but these are my Christian Origins posts which also address the issue of the Christ Myth Theory.
 
His existence is less dubious that that of Genghis Khan, whose existence is somewhat doubtful.

(If Jesus Christ performed miracles, Genghis Khan did even greater feats; namely, mathematical and chronological impossibilities.)
 
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Primary sources can take many different forms. Letters, accounts and other kinds of documents written at the time of an event or era allow a nuanced and detailed understanding of historical issues. Material below explains ways to locate primary sources in Tripod and Worldcat. To find additional primary sources, historical studies in books and journal articles will often offer the best recommendations. Check footnotes and bibliographies for references to material written in the medieval period.

Finding Primary Sources
Primary source translations that are in the Tricollege libraries will often be listed in Tripod under subject terms and the word "sources." For example, the search mongol* sources produces books including:...


--Schaus, Margaret. "Research Guides: HIST 347: The Mongol Empire (HC): Primary Sources". guides.tricolib.brynmawr.edu.
 
Re: Why I think a historical Jesus is best explanation for earliest texts
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:11 pm Nearly everyone living before 1000 CE exists as literary figures. If you or I are known in any way in a thousand year's time, we will be literary figures reconstructed from our Internet writings. The question is: why does the literary figure exist? That's when we start with assumptions. The foundational evidence for the historicity of Paul relies on those assumptions.
The question is not whether Jesus, Paul, Socrates, Alexander the Great, are literary figures -- of course they are, by definition: anyone delineated for us in literature is by definition a literary figure.

The question is whether there is historical evidence for literary figures having a historical existence outside that literature. Historians have methods for arriving at such conclusions. Biblical scholars find that those methods do not work for the figures they need to be historical so they devise other methods that have no place in the works of other historians.
I shall suggest that, from the viewpoint of a professional historian, there is a good deal in the methods and assumptions of most present-day biblical scholars that makes one not just a touch uneasy, but downright queasy. -- Akenson


Post by neilgodfrey » Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:38 pm
 
Dear Dragonball Z,
The evidence regarding the existence of Genghis Khan is far less than that which attests to the existence of the Jews’ lord and saviour, Jesus Christ. If, therefore, one were to deny the former, a proposition with which I find myself perfectly comfortable with endorsing, then I can conceive of no reason why one should not extend the same scepticism to the latter. All I require is logical consistency in one’s beliefs.
Sincerely,
Lord Osmund de Ixabert
 
I do not assert that Jesus did not exist. I am a Historical Jesus agnostic. That is, I am unconvinced by the case for the Historical Jesus, and find several reasons to be doubtful. To compare these terms to those often used when discussing the issue of God’s existence, the ‘historicist’ is the equivalent of the ‘theist’, and the ‘mythicist’ is the equivalent of the ‘strong atheist’ or ‘hard naturalist’. The oft-forgotten ‘Historical Jesus agnostic’ is the equivalent of, well, the ‘God agnostic’.

I'd like to throw one more term into the mix. Not all ‘atheists’ are ‘strong atheists. Some are simply ‘agnostics’. I would like to propose, then, that we use the term ‘ahistoricists’ to encompass both the ardent ‘mythicists’ and the less certain ‘agnostics’. This avoids the false dichotomy, which I think historicists (much like theists) have been taking advantage of. They often frame the debate as only being between the right and the wrong, the reasonable and righteous historicists versus the silly mythicists, ironically appearing as unnuanced and dogmatic fundamentalists in the process. (As with the common false dilemma, presented by apologists, of ‘the truth’ being found in ‘Christianity’ or in ‘strong atheism’.) (pp. 2–3)



--Lataster, Raphael (2019). Questioning the Historicity of Jesus: Why a Philosophical Analysis Elucidates the Historical Discourse. Brill-Rodopi. ISBN 978-9004397934.
 
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