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The Christ Myth Theory

The gospel Jesus is indeed a myth.
While I respect that opinion and think that it's very possible, I've never been able to conclude that Jesus probably didn't exist. So I consider myself an agnostic on this issue which is to say I simply don't know if Jesus existed or not.
Only the most credulous and uninformed person would believe that person is historical.
People tend to be very adept at finding reasons to believe what they want to believe. Oddly enough, when I've told people that "a Jesus" or more likely "Jesuses" probably existed because the name Jesus was a common name for Jewish men in the first century many of whom were no doubt crucified by the Romans, many of my listeners/readers, the Jesus historicists in particular, become upset with me. They don't want any ol' Jesus but the Jesus--the Jesus of Christian faith to have existed. Since I leave out the Bible to argue for a historical Jesus, it's just not good enough. They want to believe in a Jesus who can save them, or at least a Jesus they think inspired the New Testament. They need reasons to help them reach that goal.
Thus the question has always been to define the historical Jesus using evidence and argument. Therefore the discussion is far from pointless.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "to define the historical Jesus," but argument for Jesus's historicity is all we seem to have for the historicity of Jesus. Anything beyond the words of those who claim to be experts on the subject is in very short supply.
 
God and Jesus are invoked by Christians without any real definition.

Depending on how you look at the sparse sayings attributed to Jesus you can make any number of different personas.

Jesus runs from the angry violent evangelical accusing trouble in the temple to the pacfic in Sermon On The Mount.

As I have come to think, Jesus is created by each individual believer.
 
My own contribution to the historicity discussion:

Prophecy had the redeemer coming from Bethlehem.
But, suppose Jesus was known to have come from Galilee.
In that case, Jesus was presumptively not the redeemer.
Proponents, then, of the Jesus-is-the-redeemer theory needed to harmonize the conflicting origins, so they came up with the weird, implausible, and known-to-be-false story of the census.

The story: Joseph and Mary lived in Galilee, but they went to Bethlehem to be counted for the census. Jesus was born in Behthlehem, and then taken back home to Galilee.

This solves the prophesy problem by giving Jesus two origins: Yes, he is from Galilee, but he is also sort of from Bethlehem -- enough anyway to satisfy prophecy.

Why would they tell this census story if it was patently false? Because, at the core of the legend, there was a real man named Jesus who was known to be from Galilee.

That's my theory.

It's a weak theory, not strong. Nowhere near compelling.

For instance, if the census story had existed early enough for people to know there was a real Jesus who really came from Galilee, then it would also be early enough for people to know the census never happened. And if the story originated late enough that people didn't know the census was made up, then they wouldn't have known there was a real Jesus from Galilee either. Maybe.

Weak evidence, then, but enough to give me a very-lightly-held belief that the legend of Jesus had something to do, originally, with a real man named Jesus.
 
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A story was written about a god. The god was made into a man and given human experiences that were well understood by the intended audience. Today we read the same stories literally to make the godman historical when in fact those experiences were never intended to be taken literally.
 
Is existing as an amalgam of various historical figures, existing?
 
Is existing as an amalgam of various historical figures, existing?

Hey, people write fan letters to Sherlock Holmes and James Bond, and they only "existed" through the efforts of various figures... maybe the secret of "existence" is being British?

But it reminds me of something:

Myx.jpg
 
Interesting references.

Ian Flemming had some role in intelligence in WWII. Allegedly James Bond was based in a real WWII European playboy double agent

I read Arthur Conan Doyle's bio. Holmes I think was his alter ego. Doyle in real life was a doctor (Dr Watson) who took some detective cases. I think he actually saved an innocent man from the gallows.

THat the gisepls are an embellishment by creative authors based on a real person makes perfect sense.

I wonder who the inspiration was fo Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot.
 
THat the gisepls are an embellishment by creative authors based on a real person makes perfect sense.
To think, as literalists do, that these stories are recorded history is pretty lame. But to think that these stories are inspired by actual events but that the stories are not true is precisely how such stories get written, whether those stories were penned today or today two-thousand years ago.

Modern fictional creations are no different. What's unique about the gospel stories is that they are a religious argument. To the informed reader they have meaning that we cannot discern today, so we try to see them as some kind of history about a singular person because that's the religious thing to do. But they're no more historical than any modern fictional work where authors do the same thing.
 
I have started t think of literalists as kids reading comic books. To kids it is all very real. Even when they grow up they carruy it forward knowing it is not real.

Comic book fans and scifi fans as well talk as if the characters are real.
 
I have started t think of literalists as kids reading comic books. To kids it is all very real. Even when they grow up they carruy it forward knowing it is not real.

Comic book fans and scifi fans as well talk as if the characters are real.
Brain architecture. Some people let their emotions do their decision making. Others use rational thought processes to arrive at conclusions. That's not to say that critical thinking cannot fix some of the problems that literalists and religionists have, but I suppose it's got to occur early enough in brain development. There's probably a window for every person. Some of us have an innate curiosity about how things work so we don't believe that magic is real. Our brains are just different. Natural selection marches on.

A curious observation I've made is that if a person is raised without religion, aka without believing in magic, sometimes they find religion later in life and go all gaga over their new discovery, thinking the magic stories are all real. Probably the best thing is to introduce religious magic and scientific fact simultaneously and let the brain decide. If there is an innate rational curiosity that dose of religious magic acts like an inoculant against becoming infected with literalism, magic, miracles, supernaturalism, etc., all that phony stuff.
 
Some of us have an innate curiosity about how things work so we don't believe that magic is real
Hey now... Some of us have an innate curiosity about how things work so we recognize instead why people believe magic is real, and turn that curiosity on what actually is real about the magic.

I understand that this is a far more rare process than either just accepting the language at face value or rejecting it at face value, and far more difficult.

Rather, it starts with saying "most people are probably at least a little bit wrong about what magic is, since nobody seems to agree."

It pays more to say instead of "no material mechanisms could possibly mediate that effect" to instead say "what material mechanisms could possibly mediate that effect?"

On one hand it allows one to test whether they can cause the effect by this understanding of material mechanisms, and on the other it puts people into the thought space that is engineering to cause an effect.

Instead of learning to believe in magic that cannot possibly exist, I end up discovering or inventing magic that CAN exist, and avoiding magic that shouldn't.
 
"M. David Litwa is Wrong About The Ascension Of Isaiah w/ Dr. Carrier". YouTube. Godless Engineer. 15 October 2022.
Litwa literally doesn’t know anything he is talking about. Yet he arrogantly—and dishonestly—represents himself as a studied expert. This is shameful and immoral—and extremely angering. He doesn’t even know what Enrico Norelli argued, or my rebuttals to it...
David Frankfurter said:
[T]he Ascension [section] participates in innumerable ways in a Jewish apocalyptic ascent framework, while the Martyrdom section is deeply enmeshed with the Ascension. The christological features thus seem to have developed within that framework—not through precise editorial additions but as part of a [Jewish] “continuous religious subculture,” as I described in a 2003 article, in which features we now call Christian came about as part of apocalyptic speculation and composition. What we see in Ascension of Isaiah, then, is a moment in evolution, Jewish but with interests in Christ. [David Frankfurter, "Beyond 'Jewish Christianity': Continuing Religious Sub-Cultures of the Second and Third Centuries and Their Documents." In The Ways That Never Parted: Jews and Christians in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages, edited by Adam H. Becker and Annette Yoshiko Reed (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2003), 131-43.]
[...]
Now, as much as this is the kind of fictional narrative that situates apocalyptic visions, it also remarkably captures a sort of shamanic séance performance as documented cross-culturally: (a) the preparation of the séance and its participants, both adept shamans and lay audience; (b) ritual—liturgical—stages that bring heightened experience; followed by ( c) the possession/ascension of various experts in the group; and (4) their subsequent disclosures (here actually inscribed: 6:16-17), which may have particular value for the community and its beliefs. I.M. Lewis would call this a “main-morality possession cult.”

Let me add parenthetically here that I do prefer the term “shaman” to “prophet” on descriptive grounds, since “prophet”/navi is really an “emic” (or insiders’) term, lending traditional authority to a religious role. Certainly, Ascension of Isaiah embraces this traditional designation throughout the text. Also, I should say that shamanism, as a religious phenomenon, admits a great fluidity between possession by spirits, ascent accompanied by spirits, instruction from spirits, and so on. Christian exegetes tend to make weighty distinctions between possession and encounter that would not have made sense to the ancient insider. There were multiple ways to describe similar experiences with supernatural beings.

Ascension of Isaiah, then, seems to reflect an original Sitz-im-Leben in such a shamanic setting. I owe my realization of this setting to Robert Hall and Enrico Norelli, who both picked up on this witness to first-century prophetic guilds back in the early 1990s. [4] But where their interest lay in the scribal features of these prophetic guilds—Hall going as far as calling them “schools”—mine remain in their performative features. And this is where the Book of Revelation belongs in the discussion. For John of Patmos testifies that he too was “in the spirit on the Lord’s Day,” which indicates a possession state brought on by collective liturgical performance. And he too encounters a divine spirit—the anthropomorphic figure we might call the Lord-Angel—before he ascends to heaven in chapter 4. In the realm of possession, especially, Revelation is quite fluid: John alternately speaks to and is inhabited by the Lord-Angel throughout the text (esp. chaps. 1, 22).

The texts are clearly independent, but each comes from a prophetic/shamanic milieu steeped in Jewish apocalyptic tradition. And each seeks to orient that tradition, among other things, to revelations of Jesus’s heavenly nature, whether before birth (as in Ascension of Isaiah) or after death (as in Revelation). In neither case is it helpful historically, textually, or religiously to classify them as “Christian,” since their Christ-interests are idiosyncratic—indeed, many would say, oriented more towards the perpetuation of the Jewish apocalyptic tradition itself than any sort of participation in a broader “Christian” institution.

 
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By occupying the middle space between divinity and mortality, the daimonic realm establishes a clear hierarchy and separation between gods and humans and highlights the gap between them. Humans cannot interact directly with the gods; but through the intermediate position of daimons, the two realms are bound together (Plato, Symp. 202e). Platonic writers of the Roman era expand on Plato’s description of daimons as intermediaries between gods and mortals. Apuleius describes daimons as “living beings (animalia) by species, rational ones by nature, emotional in mind, aerial in body, eternal in time” (Apuleius, De deo Socr. 13.3 [Jones, LCL]). The first three of these features they share with humans, the last they share with the gods, and the fourth—occupying the middle space between heaven and earth—is unique to them.


Sharp, Matthew T. (2022). "Courting Daimons in Corinth: Daimonic Partnerships, Cosmic Hierarchies and Divine Jealousy in 1 Corinthians 8–10." (PDF) In Demons in Early Judaism and Christianity, pp. 112-129. Brill.

Most of the Jewish and Christian works discussed so far presuppose that there are three or seven heavens. The main options for the origin of the notion of three heavens are: (1) it is an inner Jewish development, based on the phrase “heaven of heavens” in the Hebrew Bible, or (2) it was borrowed from one of the typical Babylonian pictures of the universe. Given the basically rhetorical use of the Hebrew phrase and the extensive contact of Jews with Babylonian culture, the second option is more likely. The use of the terms “lower” and “upper heaven” and the presence of a heavenly sea in the Testament of Levi support this conclusion. The major options for the origin of the motif of seven heavens are: (1) it was borrowed from the Greek world-picture involving seven planetary spheres, or (2) it was borrowed from Babylonian magical tradition. Since the later recension of the Testament of Levi and the other relevant works discussed do not connect the seven heavens with planetary spheres, the second option is more likely. I would now like to turn to texts that explicitly link the seven heavens and the seven planets.

(p. 46)

Collins, Adela Yarbro (1996). Cosmology and Eschatology in Jewish and Christian Apocalypticism. BRILL. ISBN 978-90-04-10587-4.

Aristotle takes up Plato’s four elements as constituents of the sensually perceptible world. According to their respective natural weight, they arrange themselves one over the other in four concentric sublunar spheres, with Earth as the heaviest and lowermost, Fire as the lightest and uppermost clement, and Water and Air in between. Additionally, the immutable Aether. performing a circular movement, creates the supralunar sphere of the stars (Aristotle 1960)...
[...]
[In] the pseudo-platonic dialogue Epinomis, written in the fourth century BC. This text proposes a model in which the cosmos is made up of the elements arranged in concentric spheres. Each element accommodates specific creatures deriving from it for the most part... Fire is the uppermost sphere, home to the “visible gods,” or stars; next is Aether, home to the “divine spirits,” or demons, who act as go-betweens between gods and humans, in accordance with Plato's concept of daimon; next is Air, home to an “Air-born race” with functions resembling those of the demons; next is Water, home to “semi-divine” creatures, possibly the nymphs (Taran 1975: 287); the lowermost sphere is that of the Earth, home to man (Plato 1955: 984b-985b).

(pp. 4–5)

Kramer, Anke (2017). "Cultural History of the Four Elements §. THE FOUR ELEMENTS FROM ANTIQUITY TO THE EARLY MODERN PERIOD". In Duerbeck, G; Stobbe, U; Zapf, H; Zemanek, E (eds.). Ecological Thought in German Literature and Culture. Lexington Books. pp. 3–16. ISBN 978-1-4985-1493-4.
 
"6: Fresh Prince of Beliar (The Ascension of Isaiah)". libsyn.com. Apocrypals. May 27, 2018
"And Isaiah answered and said 'So far as I have utterance, damned and accused be thou and all thy powers and all thy house, for thou canst not take from me aught save the skin of my body.' And they siezed and sawed in sunder Isaiah the son of Amoz with a wooden saw." -- The Ascension of Isaiah, 5:9-11.

Here's a question for you, Theophiloi: How do you get rid of a prophet who won't stop sitting on your bed in the nude with 50 of his closest friends? The answer, at least according to this week's selection, is that you wait for him to turn into a tree that also won't stop prophesying, and then saw him in half. Join us as we read the apocryphal Ascension of Isaiah, which gets into some shockingly specific detail about what we can expect in the Gospels... mostly.

Topics of discussion: The feast of Mary, Mother of the Church, Pentecost, Shavuot, a missed installment of SatanWatch, Isaiah's constant nudity, Samael, the Venom of God, the Carnage of God, the Demiurge, Belial, demons in the air, AntichristWatch, Negaduck Jesus, Nero's popularity, Jesus's wrath against White Castles, the benefits of wooden saws, the Seven Heavens, God's password, Thrones and thrones, the Junior Woodchuck Guide for Heaven, Haguel.
 
More religious syncretism of Second Temple Jewish texts.

[M]any Second Temple Jewish texts, including the writings of Philo of Alexandria, mention eschatological concepts developed in a Greco-Roman context. Significant among these are the many references to the Greco-Roman subterranean prison of Tartarus and the related mythology of the Titans and Giants. What are we to make of these references to Hellenistic mythology within Jewish works?
[...]
The evidence from Philo of Alexandria's use of Tartarus supports the view that his eschatology was influenced by Greco-Roman culture. He confirms the established taxonomy of the environment, location, and function of Tatarus. Some of this imagery was available to Philo in texts of the LXX (e. g., Prov 30:16; Job 40:20; 41:24). However the language Philo uses in association with Tartarus, especially the claim that people are pulled downward into it (Praem. 152), suggests his dependence upon Greco-Roman authors. But Philo does not seem to have consciously adopted the Giants of Greco-Roman mythology into his religious ideology. Rather, when he does discuss the Giants, he attempts to distance the Genesis tradition from that of Greco-Roman mythology.

[Conclusion]
This survey of literary and non-literary sources demonstrates that a sizable number of the inhabitants of the Greco-Roman world, including a company of Jews, accepted, or were at least familiar with, the mythology of Tartarus and the Titans and Giants. These myths were not a part of Persian culture, so their appearance in the culture of Second Temple Judaism requires further explanation than the influence of Persian eschatology on the Jewish tradition can support. The most probable and least problematic solution for the number of appearances of Greco-Roman eschatological concepts within Second Temple Judaism is thus found in the Greco-Roman cultural context in which these Second Temple Jewish traditions developed.

(pp. 352, 377–378)

Burnett, Clint (2013). "Going Through Hell; ΤΑΡΤΑΡΟΣ in Greco-Roman Culture, Second Temple Judaism, and Philo of Alexandria". Journal of Ancient Judaism. 4 (3): 352–378. doi:10.30965/21967954-00403004.
 
An interesting exchange just occurred at MerionWest. Peter Clarke wrote a decent essay on why it is becoming more acceptable to doubt the historicity of Jesus than scholars tend to let on, which Paul Krause answered with “In Reply to ‘Jesus Mythicism Is About to Go Mainstream’.” Unfortunately, Krause didn’t do any research on the question, but only read Clarke’s essay and maybe skimmed one or two casual video conversations about it, rather than reading the peer reviewed literature on the point (not good behavior for a scholar). The result is predicable scholarly mistakes. But Krause did catch me in one myself that I will correct here, as well as his.
[...]
In a video conversation recently I was asked to think of examples of heroes who came from obscure places, and I gave the incorrect example of Romulus hailing from Alba Longa.
[...]
Historicists need to stop acting like this [Krause] guy. They are only making their position look ridiculous. Which reminds the rest of us that, evidently, real Jesus mythicism must have a formidable case. Why else would these fellows so ardently avoid ever finding out what it really is? Why would they instead try to dissuade you from finding out either, with litanies of well-poisoning and ad hominem and lies? Really. Think about it.
Carrier (21 March 2022). "On Paul Krause's Objections to Jesus Mythicism". Richard Carrier Blogs.​
• "Jesus Mythicism & the Future of Religion - Interview with Godless Engineer". YouTube. Team Futurism. Nov 4, 2022. "Hosted by journalist Peter Clarke"
[ 5:49] Peter Clarke >>>
I couldn't find a good argument to suggest that Jesus was a historical figure and so that's why I became a mythicist that's why I started making videos about it and that's why I continue to Advocate on behalf of the position excellent yeah so I mean it's interesting to me because I can care less you know whether Jesus lives or not at some basic level I I'm not invested in this because I think it's a good way to convince Christians to not be Christians you know or or I I have no ulterior motive here I really don't I just think that it's interesting and but you know when I published this piece in Merion West.

And I got more hate than I've gotten from any article I've ever published and I've published some some you know political pieces that were warranting some pushback right but like and this this is I guess religion is just such a Hot Topic um I got hate from Christians obviously but also from um in particular some people in The Atheist Community this guy uh Tim something I've heard his name Tim O'Neill yeah he runs a website um history for atheists um and so okay so I want to throw this out there to you is that you know is this just a conspiracy theory is this Flat Earth is this um you know that sort of a thing like Chemtrails or or is this something different and and you know why is it different well I I definitely don't consider it a conspiracy theory obviously I mean I'm very much against conspiracy theories. [7:38]
 
Transcript

t=48

WALSH >>> [Do you mean] the mythicist position being Jesus never existed?

HOST >>> yes

WALSH >>> yeah no I think he existed.

t=94

STAVRAKOPOULOU >>> I'm kind of radical in a lot of ways but I'm not that radical. There was probably a guy or maybe a series of guys or leaders but you know one of them is executed and it was devastating um I don't obviously I don't think he resurrected from the dead it's more probable than improbable that some guy existed and was executed.

t=186

STAVRAKOPOULOU >>> So I think it's a relatively short period of time between the writings of say Paul, which are like mid-50's and the likely execution that occurred.

t=218

WALSH >>> I don't think Paul was readily accepted by his own testimony by those in Jerusalem Peter and James um he named specifically uh and and I don't see much of a benefit to Paul um assuming that that's genuine to Paul those claims um making that up uh because it establishes his uh justification for being what he calls the Apostle to the Gentiles so something was happening in Jerusalem in the wake of this man we call Jesus.

t=604

WALSH >>> I think that that is an indication that there there are too many arguments to say that there was a man named Jesus do I think he looks like the gentleman that we have presented to us in the gospels know I do not yeah but I I do think

STAVRAKOPOULOU >>> We know there are lots of these kinds of figures wandering around honey the circle drawer is one of my favorites you know he had his methods basically drawing circles and standing in them um but you know the kind of John the Baptist Jesus thing that looks to me like a massive kind of polemic as a way of trying to say what's the relationship between these two figures you know John the Baptist had his head cut off this Jesus guy you know was crucified so you've got two kind of executed figures who have been brought together that to me suggests that there's somebody that's trying to reconcile these two popular kind of cult leaders.

 
"There was probably a guy or maybe a series of guys or leaders but you know one of them is executed and it was devastating um I don't obviously I don't think he resurrected from the dead it's more probable than improbable that some guy existed and was executed."
It's absolutely unquestionably certain that there were newspaper reporters in major American cities in the early twentieth century. Therefore Superman isn't mythical.

I doubt that any serious historian would argue that the Romans didn't crucify anyone in Judea in the first century. That's not evidence that Jesus is not mythical, unless we are also to accept that Superman is, at least in part, a real person (or amalgam of several people) who actually lived.
 
lets see ...
change religion from literal to "focal point". A lens for the mind so to speak.
Makes so much sense that the only reason not to grow up is holding on to ones power. Or worse, for some, having to say "How about that, I was wrong. Cool."
 
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