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The Christ Myth Theory

I see that most of you are HUGELY more qualified than I to comment on Jesus' historicity. Nevertheless I will repeat my common-sense argument that early Christianity derived from a real (though not supernatural) Jesus of Nazareth.

(1) Histories refer to Christians living in Rome about 28 years after the alleged crucifixion. Could those texts have been misinterpreted or forged centuries later? Perhaps, but that seems like severe special pleading. Don't Paul and Josephus refer to the same historic James? The lack of early Gospel documents just reflects the ease with which old documents are lost.

(2) Parts of the Gospels make little sense as myth, but could be used to excuse uncomfortable facts. As just one example, why is a prophet without honor in his own country? Most likely it was to explain the uncomfortable fact that some of his early acquaintances did not think he was the Messiah.

(3) Why invent a fictitious "Messiah" when there were real claimants, e.g. John the Baptist, to choose from?
As 3, why would Ayn Rand invent a fake industrialist in their shit-ass book instead of a real claimant?

To me, it comes down to being able to control the character rather than being constrained to writing a person whose traits must be kept faithfully uncorrupted.
 
. . .
(3) Why invent a fictitious "Messiah" when there were real claimants, e.g. John the Baptist, to choose from?
As 3, why would Ayn Rand invent a fake industrialist in their shit-ass book instead of a real claimant?

To me, it comes down to being able to control the character rather than being constrained to writing a person whose traits must be kept faithfully uncorrupted.

AFAIK Ms. Rand did not hope others would think John Galt or Howard Roark were historic persons.

IF we assume that Christians in Rome less than 30 years after the alleged crucifixion did indeed worship the same Christ, mythical or not, that the Gospels speak of, then the early church evolved while the real life, if any, of that Christ was still vivid in memory.

If I were constructing a fiction and (unlike Ms. Rand) wanted people to think it true I would not choose a hero easily shown to be fictional.
 
. . .
(3) Why invent a fictitious "Messiah" when there were real claimants, e.g. John the Baptist, to choose from?
As 3, why would Ayn Rand invent a fake industrialist in their shit-ass book instead of a real claimant?

To me, it comes down to being able to control the character rather than being constrained to writing a person whose traits must be kept faithfully uncorrupted.

AFAIK Ms. Rand did not hope others would think John Galt or Howard Roark were historic persons.

IF we assume that Christians in Rome less than 30 years after the alleged crucifixion did indeed worship the same Christ, mythical or not, that the Gospels speak of, then the early church evolved while the real life, if any, of that Christ was still vivid in memory.

If I were constructing a fiction and (unlike Ms. Rand) wanted people to think it true I would not choose a hero easily shown to be fictional.
But my point is that again, it does not matter much to the original author's hopes.

At any rate, the young-apocalyptic street preacher Jesus trope had been kicking around as a stereotype for some time by that point as a stereotype of someone more than anything else.

You may be layering too much modern sensibility here in that there's little to keep the ancient mind from conflating fiction and reality, especially when reality is so poorly understood as it was then
 
I see that most of you are HUGELY more qualified than I to comment on Jesus' historicity. Nevertheless I will repeat my common-sense argument that early Christianity derived from a real (though not supernatural) Jesus of Nazareth.

(1) Histories refer to Christians living in Rome about 28 years after the alleged crucifixion. Could those texts have been misinterpreted or forged centuries later? Perhaps, but that seems like severe special pleading. Don't Paul and Josephus refer to the same historic James? The lack of early Gospel documents just reflects the ease with which old documents are lost.

(2) Parts of the Gospels make little sense as myth, but could be used to excuse uncomfortable facts. As just one example, why is a prophet without honor in his own country? Most likely it was to explain the uncomfortable fact that some of his early acquaintances did not think he was the Messiah.

(3) Why invent a fictitious "Messiah" when there were real claimants, e.g. John the Baptist, to choose from?
My amateur take is that the gospels are historical fiction. The protagonist is an amalgam of many things. I don't know enough about mythicism to make a case one way or another.

Were those communities followers of Christ or Chrestus? Did chrestians become christians because there were no original christians? It's a fascinating piece of the discussion. Why the change?
 
The Hebrew scriptures appear to be awash in atoning blood:

• Godfrey, Neil (4 January 2019). "Why a Saviour Had to Suffer and Die? Martyrdom Beliefs in Pre-Christian Times". Vridar.
The blood of the martyr atones for the sin of his people -- Deut. 32.43; II Mac. 7.37 f; IV Mac. 1.11; 6.28 f; 12.7 f; 17.21 f; SB, II, 274 ff; 281 f; MidrHL. on 7.9; MidrPr. on 9.2
• Godfrey, Neil (15 January 2019). "Salvation through a Saviour's Death -- Another List". Vridar.
[T}he blood of Jewish martyrs was believed to purify and cleanse the nation; the martyrs’ blood led to God’s forgiveness of the sins of the nation and the salvation of all.

Hi, sorry I missed this comment. I appreciate your time and effort in finding these references. I would like to reiterate the point I made above that:

The Levitical background of Hebrews shows that the sacrifice of the one animal is meant to purify the location so God can be present amidst a sinful people. The other Levitical animal here, scapegoat that the sins are placed upon, is not killed, but in fact released into the wilderness, so this isn't a model that can be used to prooftext Christ's death as being responsible for the sin debt being wiped clean.

I don't think anyone is arguing sacrificial imagery is not present. For my historicist reading it is Christ's blood / brutal torture and death that awakens what Paul calls the law written on our hearts and, following Luke, awakens our guilt and hence is a catalyst for our repentance. It may even be awakened guilt that prompted Paul's conversion experience, as he had relatives such as Junia high up in the early Jesus movement he was persecuting = cognitive dissonance.

It is not a question of going back into the Hebrew Scripture and prooftexting this or that, but asking how is the crucifixion/resurrection of Jesus solving a problem. Neil mentioned 4 Maccabees somewhere on this thread regarding the idea of substitution. That's fine, but it doesn't seem to make the best sense of the NT evidence. This is the problem with prooftexting. McGrath comments against the sin debt interpretation:

Yet the New Testament does not use the language of punishment and exchange in the way 4 Maccabees (which was written after the early Christians had already interpreted the death of Jesus in atoning, sacrificial terms) does. Paul can talk about sacrifice (and discussing what sacrifice meant in the Judaism of this time would be a subject of its own), but he prefers to use the language of participation. One died for all, so that all died (2 Corinthians 5:14). This is not only different from substitution, it is the opposite of it. Jesus is here understood not to prevent our death but to bring it about! This fits neatly within his understanding of there being two ages, with Christ having died to one and entered the resurrection age, and with Christians through their connection to him having already died to the present age and thus made able to live free from its dominion. see: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/religionprof/2007/12/whats-wrong-with-penal-substitution.html

This is my argument for Paul: Paul was apocalyptic. He called the resurrected Jesus the "firstfruits" of the general resurrection of souls at the end of the age which had begun in his eyes. In other words, judgment was coming soon. For the people to be judged favorably they needed to repent. The Lukan moral influence interpretation of the cross paints the cross as a tool for making our hidden guilt conspicuous so that we can be convicted by the law written on our hearts and repent. A Carrier/Doherty celestial sin-debt-wiped-clean-cross doesn't accomplish this because how do demons executing Christ in the sky inspire my repentance, and even if my current sin debt is wiped clean what if I sin horribly again (does Christ have to die again?).

So I think Moral Influence is a better interpretation of the cross than Penal Substitution (paying the sin debt), and historicism makes a good case. The cross loses all effect to make manifest my guilty if I don't identify and see in myself those who killed Jesus. The relenting/repenting Roman soldier seems to both function on the individual level I outlined above, and on the societal level with Jesus as Israel and the soldier as Rome, because remember Joel 3 said the nations would be judged for mistreating Israel, so there needed to be societal repentance too. But these are all individual and societal issues grounded specifically in human history, not having to do with Jesus as a great angel never having been on earth and crucified by demons in outer space.

The problem with the view that Paul or the gospels meant to convey a message that we are all guilty and in some vicarious sense responsible for the death of Jesus is that Paul nowhere expresses such guilt himself and doesn't try to tell his converts that they should, either. And it doesn't appear in the gospels, either. Stendahl's piece still holds: -- The Apostle Paul and the Introspective Conscience of the West. (Or my own post on that article: https://wp.me/p3H3CD-ix9) That's a Protestant interpretation of Paul and the gospels. Paul never expresses any guilt or shame for being even partly responsible for Jesus' death.

The 4 Maccabees reference was not a "proof text" but the expression of a theme that is found throughout the many allusions and tropes in the gospels, as Levenson has demonstrated at length in his work -- Jesus is presented as a new Isaac whose blood atones for all the sins of his race. But Stendahl's article still applies even here. (As for the Roman soldier's confession at the end of the crucifixion scene, there are reasonable arguments that that little anecdote was introduced into the first gospel as an ironic twist: "So this! was the son of God! What a joke!" Those words were turned into a serious confession by a later evangelist.

Jesus is also the personification of the "new Israel" (or the "church") that emerges out of the mass crucifixions and related deaths of the Jews in 70 CE -- and that idea comes close, even might be interpreted as another expression of, McGrath's point about "participation". That's also very much Paul's idea that is taken from Stoicism: One has to "die" to this world and be "immersed" in the Logos (for the Stoics) or Christ (for Paul) and from there "rise" to join a new community of likeminded persons living a "Logos/Christ" centred life.

But I don't think that any of this tells us about the origins of the idea of Christ and his crucifixion.

The earliest witnesses speak of Christ's death as having some mystical saving effect, however that was done. From that perspective it matters not whether it was an event in heaven, experienced by a spirit being, or on earth by a spirit being, or on earth by a real being. It was entirely a mystical process in its power to save. All sorts of theories spun off from that idea and it was still being wrestled with in the time of Luther and many of us are still reading Paul through Luther's eyes -- as Stendahl points out.

Yes, I don find your response to be convincing. Paul's "One died so that all died" certainly doesn't support your reading. You have some plausible ideas sometimes Neil, but remember Dr. McGrath banned you from his blog because you habitually distort the texts to support your hypotheses. Saying we have reason to think the Roman soldier is being sarcastic in Mark is like RG Price saying Mark was being sarcastic calling his work a gospel/good news. Anyway, I think some interesting comments were made on this thread so I've had my say and hopefully others will continue!
Woah there! The sarcasm of the Roman soldier idea is found serious scholars and presented in peer reviewed publications. I am not saying I agree with it -- I don't know -- but it when balanced against the thrust of the preceding taunts it is not a culpable distortion.

Can you explain how "one died so that all died" does not support my reading -- which I tried to point out is the reading of serious scholars. Stendahl is hardly a lightweight.

I challenge you or anyone to identify the evidence that I have "habitually distorted" any text to support a hypothesis. I have always endeavoured to back up any interpretation with clear evidence to substantiate it and would appreciate any notice where I have failed to do so.
 
(2/2) ps

Just to show Mark's Roman Soldier isn't being sarcastic as Godfrey claims, we read:

37 Then Jesus gave a loud cry and breathed his last. 38 And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. 39 Now when the centurion who stood facing him saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was God’s Son!” (Mark 15:37-39 NRSVUE)

As anyone can see, the miracle of the temple curtain being torn precedes the admission by the soldier that Jesus is God's true son, snubbing Caesar who the Romans would have seen as the son of God. The soldier has undergone a transformation. A "gospel" means propaganda, that's what kind of writing it is - exaggeration and flattering a known historical figure. Helms comments:

The syncretic flavor of Mark is at once evident from his reproduction of a piece of Augustan imperial propaganda and his setting it beside a tailored scripture quote. “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God” closely matches the formula found on a monument erected by the Provincial Assembly in Asia Minor (1st century BCE): “Whereas... Providence... has... brought our life to the peak of perfection in giving us Augustus Caesar... who, being sent to us and to our descendants as a savior..., and whereas... the birthday of the god has been for the whole world the beginning of the gospel (euaggelion) concerning him, let all reckon a new era beginning from the date of his birth.” (Helms, p. 24, in Price)

I think it's plausible Paul had his conversion experience/hallucination out of cognitive dissonance related to repressed guilt from persecuting a movement who he had relatives high up in like Junia. I think this is the meaning of the cross generally: Christ crucified as a catalyst for a person to see themselves as a microcosm of the world that wrongly executed Jesus, and thus being convicted by the Law written on her heart (Rom 2:15) , the person is inspired to repent/die to this evil age, and in this way is crucified with Christ:

I have been crucified with Christ, 20 and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. (Gal 2:20,)

14 For the love of Christ urges us on, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. (2 Cor 5:14)

That Jesus died for us allows us to die, to be crucified with him, which is the opposite of Christ dying instead of us to appease a God who can't forgive. For a couple good blog posts on the silliness of the sin debt interpretation of the cross, see Dr. McGrath's 2 posts here:


Okay, that's me 2 cents. Hopefully the dialogue will continue in my absence!

Let's be clear about what I actually wrote. I wrote:

"(As for the Roman soldier's confession at the end of the crucifixion scene, there are reasonable arguments that that little anecdote was introduced into the first gospel as an ironic twist: "So this! was the son of God! What a joke!" Those words were turned into a serious confession by a later evangelist.)"

If you disagree, that's no problem. I might disagree with that statement, too. But one has to concede that it is not a silly argument posited by idiots. It is one found in the peer reviewed scholarly literature.

As for the claim that "anyone can see" X, that's a bit misleading. There is nothing in what the centurion is said to see that compels the reader to think that he saw the tearing of the temple curtain, an event that was surely impossible to see anyway from the foot of the cross.

I hope the dialogue can continue in good will and without inferences that others are engaged in some sort of wilful distortions of the evidence.

McGrath's posts give good theology for the modern reader of Romans. But Stendahl's interpretation to which I referred earlier traces the history of interpretation and obliges us, I think, to take careful note of what Paul does and does not say.
 
To demonstrate that it is not some sort of dishonest distortion that the argument that the centurion's words spoken at the death of Jesus were some sort of irony or sarcasm in the Gospel of Mark (I have never even suggested they are the same for the later gospels -- they are not!) , interested readers can consult the thesis at https://baylor-ir.tdl.org/handle/2104/9240 - The author of that thesis (Brian Gamel) disagrees with the view that the Gospel of Mark presents the centurion's words as ironical but he has the honesty to set out the case, and those arguing it, for the opposing view. Gamel provides many useful citations for anyone interested in following up the argument.

Surely it is possible to disagree about interpretations without being accused of distorting (implying that the distortion is dishonest) the text. (If McGrath ever said he banned me for such a thing then I have not been made aware of it.)
 
To demonstrate that it is not some sort of dishonest distortion that the argument that the centurion's words spoken at the death of Jesus were some sort of irony or sarcasm in the Gospel of Mark (I have never even suggested they are the same for the later gospels -- they are not!) , interested readers can consult the thesis at https://baylor-ir.tdl.org/handle/2104/9240 - The author of that thesis (Brian Gamel) disagrees with the view that the Gospel of Mark presents the centurion's words as ironical but he has the honesty to set out the case, and those arguing it, for the opposing view. Gamel provides many useful citations for anyone interested in following up the argument.

Surely it is possible to disagree about interpretations without being accused of distorting (implying that the distortion is dishonest) the text. (If McGrath ever said he banned me for such a thing then I have not been made aware of it.)
Or it's evidence that the author was there to watch a crucifixion or two of some apocalyptic street preacher with a God delusion, and paid attention to what folks were saying when it happened.

It's not like researching source material was hard for this sort of thing.
 
To demonstrate that it is not some sort of dishonest distortion that the argument that the centurion's words spoken at the death of Jesus were some sort of irony or sarcasm in the Gospel of Mark (I have never even suggested they are the same for the later gospels -- they are not!) , interested readers can consult the thesis at https://baylor-ir.tdl.org/handle/2104/9240 - The author of that thesis (Brian Gamel) disagrees with the view that the Gospel of Mark presents the centurion's words as ironical but he has the honesty to set out the case, and those arguing it, for the opposing view. Gamel provides many useful citations for anyone interested in following up the argument.

Surely it is possible to disagree about interpretations without being accused of distorting (implying that the distortion is dishonest) the text. (If McGrath ever said he banned me for such a thing then I have not been made aware of it.)
Or it's evidence that the author was there to watch a crucifixion or two of some apocalyptic street preacher with a God delusion, and paid attention to what folks were saying when it happened.

It's not like researching source material was hard for this sort of thing.
I know this is not your main point, but in the interests of keeping a discussion on an even keel, it is not even "evidence" that the author was there to watch a crucifixion, etc. Evidence per se needs to be independent of what it is testifying for. All a narrative can tell us is what the author of the narrative wanted his audience to read or hear. Nothing more than that. If we want to go further and look for evidence to support an idea that the narrative is based in real events, then we need data external to the narrative and independent of the narrative.

Take, for example, the Trojan war that was the subject of Homer's Iliad. We have a narrative claiming to be written by an eyewitness of that war. All sorts of interesting details are mentioned and for centuries generations of scholars were convinced they had evidence of the Trojan War as told by Homer. But it was nothing of the sort. It was a hoax. A text that claims to be such-and-such is not evidence for that claim: it is only an assertion. Evidence has to be found independent of the claim in order to support the claim.
 

Also, this is kind of interesting. Dr Dennis MacDonald did an Internet Infidels podcast interview with our social media guy Ed today where he basically sums up how absurd the academy thinks mythicism is:


Carrier (14 April 2020). "Is Jesus Wholly or Only Partly a Myth? The Carrier-MacDonald Exchange". Richard Carrier Blogs.​

  • comment by Steven C Watson April 24, 2020, 5:05 pm
    ...I said before Two Shipwrecked Gospels was published that MacDonald was conjuring another fictional document like Q and so the book proved. An interesting read but it didn’t remotely do what it said on the tin.
    I abandonded reading the transcript not half-way through. In writing I’m afraid to me the man comes across as a delusional fool. Is he an actual historian by training or just another theologian in drag?

    • comment by db April 25, 2020, 10:07 pm
    Not a total write off per intertextuality.
    I cite the following at “Gospel of Mark (intertextuality)”. Wikipedia.
    • MacDonald, Dennis R. (2000). The Homeric epics and the Gospel of Mark. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-08012-4.
    “[Per Seneca] Skilled authors were bees that took the best nectar from many blossoms to produce textual honey.” —(p. 6)
    […]
    “Like the proverbial bee of ancient rhetoric, Mark harvested nectar from several blossoms — some Jewish and some Greek — and transformed them into gospel honey.” —(p. 96)
    And at “Jesus myth theory”. RationalWiki.
    • MacDonald, Dennis R. (2012). Two Shipwrecked Gospels: The Logoi of Jesus and Papias’s Exposition of Logia about the Lord. Society of Biblical Literature (SBL). ISBN 978-1-58983-691-4.
    “[There is a] profound influence of Jewish Scriptures, especially Deuteronomy, on the Logoi of Jesus [ca. 60-70] . . . [and the Logoi has a] pervasive influence on all three of the Synoptics [Mark ca. 75-80] . . . Paul’s authentic epistles predate the composition of the Logoi of Jesus…” —(p. 543)


    • comment by Richard Carrier April 30, 2020, 5:35 pm
    No more a delusional fool than every scholar in Biblical studies, as they all entertain some crackpot theory they insist should be mainstream. The entire Q hypothesis itself is such, and yet became mainstream. But even then each scholar who writes on Q has their own pet theory as to what was in it, where it was written, its redactional history, and so on. In that context, there is nothing unusual at all about MacDonald here. He is fully mainstream, doing exactly what every mainstreak Q scholar does.
    I just point out that if every Q scholar is coming up with completely different answers about Q, we have no reasin to believe any of them have the correct answer. They clearly don’t even have a working method to find out! (This is the point of my entire first chapter in Proving History.)
    However, I’m not sure you were paying attention to what he is doing in Two Shipwrecked Gospels. Yes, he wants to use his observations to reach additional connclusions “about” Q, but almost everything he actually does is show how stories about Jesus (particularly in Matthew) are all contrived rewrites of Old Testament narratives. And on that thesis, he is quite right, and his evidence often (just not always) quite good.
    His only mistake, really, is in not simply admitting that he’s simply discovered how Matthew composed his expansions to Mark. There is nothing else going on here.



  • comment byJohn MacDonald April 28, 2020, 2:01 pm
    Yay, I was mentioned in the transcript! I really enjoyed being in that internet audience for the debate and learned a lot about Dr. MacDonald’s and Dr. Carrier’s positions. I think Dennis MacDonald’ book “The Dionysian Gospel:: The Fourth Gospel and Euripides” sheds some interesting light on the debate currently happening about Hugo Mendez/Candida Moss’ argument that the Gospel of John might be a forgery. I just posted my first blog post on my brand new blog (I deleted the previous blog), which really tries to outline how MacDonald’s Dionysian mimesis/typology sheds light on these issues in GJohn. Check it out: https://macdonaldmonthly.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-justified-lie-by-johannine-jesus.html
 

But I don't think that any of this tells us about the origins of the idea of Christ and his crucifixion.

The earliest witnesses speak of Christ's death as having some mystical saving effect, however that was done. From that perspective it matters not whether it was an event in heaven, experienced by a spirit being, or on earth by a spirit being, or on earth by a real being.

  • Many Jewish counter-culture sects were extant during the period in question that may have influenced or even competed with the Jewish sect that Paul joined—now termed as the original "Christian" sect—which may have originally been named "The Brothers of the Lord". Carrier writes:
The distinguishing characteristic of a Christian sect would be the archangel Jesus having died. There is no evidence Paul knew of any Christian sect preaching “another kind of death.”
[…]
Paul is never clear on what sort of death is meant. The words he uses also referred to standard Jewish executions (as for example by stoning). I cite scholarship and evidence of that in OHJ (pp. 61-62). So, for example, the sect outside the Roman Empire that preached Christ was stoned and then crucified, by the Jews (OHJ, Ch. 8.1; which Paul could be referring to, as he is sufficiently vague) could be more original than the souped up version invented possibly by Mark that has the Romans do it in collusion with the Jews.
Other than that, there probably were pre-Christian sects (one of which probably became Christian, by novel revelation) that did revere the archangel Jesus and probably even taught he would be the coming messiah, but had not yet come to the conclusion that he’d died to effect his plans, thus had already initiated the end times timetable. There are hints in the Dead Sea Scrolls that the sect(s) represented there did have some such view (and may even have written up pesher prophecies of that angel’s future planned death). But we don’t know that for sure, we don’t know if the only such sect simply became Christianity, we don’t know if any members of that sect protested the revelation and stuck to the original timetable and thus broke away, we don’t know if there were other sects never impacted by the revelation who continued preaching their own thing. Paul does say there were sects preaching “another Jesus” whom the Christians should shun. So those could have been any of the above, for example.
Another way to look at it is: the manner of death was too trivial to have a schism over at that point, especially as Paul is so vague about it—and you don’t go vague on a point that’s creating schisms; that’s what creeds are for: to demarcate what’s valid and what’s anathema. So clearly there were no anathemas regarding means of the killing; vagueness would at best mean an intent to “big tent” the movement and unite schisms. Notice that by the time we get to Ignatius, now the manner of death is a schism point built into the creed, indicating that by then there certainly were sects disagreeing (though exactly what they were disagreeing on or why we can only speculate). But that’s almost a hundred years later. But there could well have been sects still revering or expecting the Jesus angel as not having died, and who (like possibly Philo) thought it absurd that he would ever do so, and/or who (like possibly the Qumran sect) thought it was not time yet for it to happen, who were competing with Christian sects. They could be the “other Jesus’s” Paul talks about. But we sadly just don’t know. [Comment by Richard Carrier—23 May 2018—per "Historicity Big and Small: How Historians Try to Rescue Jesus". Richard Carrier Blogs. 26 April 2018.]
 
To demonstrate that it is not some sort of dishonest distortion that the argument that the centurion's words spoken at the death of Jesus were some sort of irony or sarcasm in the Gospel of Mark (I have never even suggested they are the same for the later gospels -- they are not!) , interested readers can consult the thesis at https://baylor-ir.tdl.org/handle/2104/9240 - The author of that thesis (Brian Gamel) disagrees with the view that the Gospel of Mark presents the centurion's words as ironical but he has the honesty to set out the case, and those arguing it, for the opposing view. Gamel provides many useful citations for anyone interested in following up the argument.

Surely it is possible to disagree about interpretations without being accused of distorting (implying that the distortion is dishonest) the text. (If McGrath ever said he banned me for such a thing then I have not been made aware of it.)
Or it's evidence that the author was there to watch a crucifixion or two of some apocalyptic street preacher with a God delusion, and paid attention to what folks were saying when it happened.

It's not like researching source material was hard for this sort of thing.
I know this is not your main point, but in the interests of keeping a discussion on an even keel, it is not even "evidence" that the author was there to watch a crucifixion, etc. Evidence per se needs to be independent of what it is testifying for. All a narrative can tell us is what the author of the narrative wanted his audience to read or hear. Nothing more than that. If we want to go further and look for evidence to support an idea that the narrative is based in real events, then we need data external to the narrative and independent of the narrative.

Take, for example, the Trojan war that was the subject of Homer's Iliad. We have a narrative claiming to be written by an eyewitness of that war. All sorts of interesting details are mentioned and for centuries generations of scholars were convinced they had evidence of the Trojan War as told by Homer. But it was nothing of the sort. It was a hoax. A text that claims to be such-and-such is not evidence for that claim: it is only an assertion. Evidence has to be found independent of the claim in order to support the claim.
My point is that people take fragments of their own life, experience or the result of notes, as part of a writing process. To me that kind of callused disdain comes from a place of real experience...

If it did, it is at best evidence of hearing words in A context, not necessarily the exact context of seeing the protagonist of the story, really specifically being talked down to that way is what I'm saying.
 

Also, this is kind of interesting. Dr Dennis MacDonald did an Internet Infidels podcast interview with our social media guy Ed today where he basically sums up how absurd the academy thinks mythicism is:



The irony! "Markan irony" is a well known trope in New Testament studies. Someone posts a clip of Dennis MacDonald saying what rot mythicism is. Yet Dennis MacDonald is also one who seriously argued that the centurion at the foot of the cross was being sarcastic(!) when he said, "Surely this was a son of god!" -- a point that the same someone who posted the clip said was utter rot or somethings similar when I made the point here that it was indeed a serious argument in the field.

But as to the question of where Jesus mythicism stands in the field of NT scholarship: I have experienced evidence that it is a password, a key idea, that signifies if one is part of the guild or not. My own exchanges with NT scholars, including the infamous ones of my exchanges with McGrath, have regularly been stimulating and respectful -- until the subject of the Christ myth surfaces. Many -- not all, but many -- scholars have at that point cut off communication or resorted to outright insults. My own blog for a time regularly featured in the top 10 of biblical studies blogs until powers that be decided to change the criteria and relegate it to "conspiracy theory" even though I have never argued a conspiracy theory and have in fact posted against such views.

I said "many" and stressed, "not all", because there are some scholars who do respect the case for Jesus never having existed. The difference comes down to methods and institutional bias. NT scholars themselves have published criticisms of the theological bias in their own field so it is not nonsense to claim that theological bias does dominate NT studies. And historians outside the NT academy have noted the methodological circularity/fallacies at the heart of NT studies about Christian origins.

It remains a fact, undisputed as far as I am aware, that the actual methods of classical and ancient history scholars are not the same as those of NT scholars. Yes, some NT scholars deny it but they do not demonstrate their denials with evidence. If I am unaware of exceptions then someone will certainly correct me. NT scholars begin with the assumption that the gospel narrative has some core of history, that it was passed on through oral tradition until being written down in gospels, and they use "criteriology (of authenticity)" and now "memory theory" to try to explain this process. But neither of those methods are accepted as sound ways to determine what or who actually existed in the fields of history or classics.

The fact remains that there is no independent evidence for the historical existence of Jesus. That does NOT mean that there was no historical Jesus. It may turn out that positing the hypothesis of a historical Jesus offers the most explanatory power for the data that we have. But as one prominent member of the field in biblical studies wrote shortly before he died not long ago, biblical studies will only bring itself to the level of some respectability as an academic discipline when it finally acknowledges the mere possibility of the non-existence of Jesus.
 
I enjoy biblical scholarship and particularly discussions about the historicity or lack thereof of the gospel protagonist. The dueling arguments over Jesus historicity strike me as very similar to the dueling theologies that came about in the early centuries over exactly who and what Jesus was and represented. A more modern parallel might be the Shakespeare Authorship Question.

Are biblical scholars and interpreters today so different than those writers and storytellers of that time? Everyone is arguing for their Jesus. Maybe there is less religious invective today between proponents but every possible Jesus construct has its champion.

Everything about the gospel protagonist has its contemporaneous parallel which is why I always assert that GJ is an amalgam of dueling identities, a wholly fictional character in a story. The only difference is that in those early centuries there were life and death consequences, real enemies, real religious competition because there was no democracy, no personal freedoms, little science. It was a different world than the rather genteel times we enjoy in comparison.

In any case, the real Jesus is still being invented and/or discovered. In that sense, not much has changed. We like to know exactly who and what our superman is or was. In the end it's a very personal journey which undoubtedly makes it so compelling. We've certainly come a long way in that we can make the statement that there is possibly no historical person outside the writer to whom we can attach historical significance much as any fictional character in modern print. Literary criticism should allow us to make historical inferences with regards to any of those characters then and now given that we know the author. But there certainly are vested interests that do not want to to be associated with anyone claiming that Jesus was possibly fictional like Hercules or Pegasus. I find that unfortunate.
 
...I always assert that GJ is an amalgam of dueling identities, a wholly fictional character in a story.
[...]
Literary criticism should allow us to make historical inferences with regards to any of those characters then and now given that we know the author. But there certainly are vested interests that do not want to to be associated with anyone claiming that Jesus was possibly fictional like Hercules or Pegasus. I find that unfortunate.

Richard Carrier notes:

(1) The Gospels are the only definite source for a historical Jesus we have (everything else either derives from them or is too ambiguous to determine the question), yet they portray Jesus more similarly to other mythical persons than any historical person (even historical persons we know were also mythologized), therefore we need good evidence to prove Jesus is the exception among those similar characters; otherwise, we should conclude he is just like all the others, i.e. just as mythical as they are.
(2) The Epistles that predate the Gospels should provide such evidence, but instead exhibit no clear evidence that Jesus was ever known to have visited Earth; they appear only to know of a revelatory Jesus who was only ever met or spoken to in visions.
(1) + (2) = Jesus was more likely mythical than historical.
Note this is not "Jesus was mythical." Rather, "more likely" to be. In OHJ I still conclude with a 1 in 3 chance there was a historical Jesus.
Also note that (1) is crucially distinct and different from "the Gospel stories were made up." A biography merely being made up is not the same thing as fashioning a character entirely according to pagan and Jewish tropes for mythical persons.[20]
 
Having just dabbled in some of the literature, I consider myself a dilettante on the subject, when I feel like flattering myself. So I really enjoyed the McGrath interview and came away with the view that he is not a Jesus mythicist, but a Jesus mythologist. That is, he believes in the historical Jesus, because he believes in a Jewish Q "lost gospel". That gospel would presumably be more informative about the actual historical Jesus, which got more and more mythologized as time went on.

As a rank amateur, I feel I have to take an agnostic stand on the question, but I do still lean towards mythicism. The reason is that I feel a need to have enough evidence to be able to tell the difference between likely myth and likely historical reality. So I always enjoyed reading Carrier's more historical arguments on the subject (albeit not his obsession with Bayesian reasoning), and I tend to mistrust accounts based purely on classical and textual analysis. I think it likely that there was a Jesus cult at one time that might have grounded its doctrine in the martyrdom of a real individual at the hands of either Roman or local authorities. Maybe they produced a "Q" document or some precursor to it. Maybe not. I'll continue following the controversy from time to time, but it isn't a mystery that I believe will ever be solved to anyone's satisfaction, barring some fantastic archaeological discovery. There is really a lot of literature grounded in an astonishingly small number of verifiable facts.
 
  • Christopher Jon Bjerknes contra Richard Carrier
[15:00]
...Barabbas
again is meant to represent the victorious messiah, son of David and it
is Jesus Christ who is the suffering messiah of Isaiah chapters
52 to 53 who has to die in order for Jesus Barabbas
to live and succeed. That is all in accord with the Jewish
legends of the twin messiahs...
[16:00]
 
My question is this: Outside sources that stem either directly or indirectly from the Bible, what evidence is there for Jesus?
"The Bible" did not exist until centuries after Jesus' death. Almost none of the texts under discussion did or could "stem from the Bible" until long after the relevant period of time. Rather, "the Bible" is a concept that gradually (over several centuries) came to stem from a panoply of early sources we now have only partial access to. Paul's letters are not a Biblical source, in other words. Rather, the Bible is a Pauline source if you're thinking of these things clearly.
Really? Are we playing these silly word games now?

If there is a text that was written before the Bible was collected together, but this text was later included in the Bible, feel free to count it from the time it was first written.

I'm not going to say, "Only sources that were written AFTER the entire Bible had been collected together into a single volume will count."
 

I'm not going to say, "Only sources that were written AFTER the entire Bible had been collected together into a single volume will count."

An oft misunderstood topic: βίβλος (bíblos, “book”), from βύβλος (búblos, “papyrus”) (from the ancient Phoenician city of Byblos which exported this writing material). N.B. κανών (kanṓn, “measuring rod, standard”) and the Catholic canon was set at the Council of Rome (382) not Nicaea (325).
The term "extant second temple scriptures" would be more apropos per the origin of the Jewish sect that we term as the original Christian sect.
 
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