The Christ Myth Theory

[TomC]

Either way I doubt Jesus was ever real, just one of them many things I already wondered about things.

I don't see it that way at all. Obviously, Historical Jesus existed. The (first century equivalent of) the name was quite common.
Similarly, lots of people were condemned to crucifixion, mainly for anti-government activities. Judea had lots of people and groups violently opposed to the Roman oppressors and their Jewish lackeys.

The likelihood that a guy named Jesus was sentenced to crucifixion, by Pontius Pilate around 30ce, is a no brainer. Probably more than one.

Then there's the other details of his history. Mary and Joseph were common names. Lots of people lived in Galilee. The bio of historical Jesus is way beyond plausible.

That's completely different from the mythical Christ. The miracle working demigod. He was publicly executed, resurrected, preached for a few more weeks, then Ascended to Heaven and became part of a previously unknown pantheon, The Trinity. But hardly anyone noticed at the time. I think that it took a few years for Historical Jesus to morph into a Legend, which grew into a Myth once the legend was transplanted into the Greco Roman empire outside of Judea.

I find it interesting to speculate about what kernels of truth got wrapped in so many layers of legend that they became myth, and resulted in the religion that dominates the world I live in. But it's mostly speculation. There's almost no reality, beyond the most prosaic parts.
Tom

 

[FievelJ]

Either way I doubt Jesus was ever real, just one of them many things I already wondered about things.

I don't see it that way at all. Obviously, Historical Jesus existed. The (first century equivalent of) the name was quite common.
Similarly, lots of people were condemned to crucifixion, mainly for anti-government activities. Judea had lots of people and groups violently opposed to the Roman oppressors and their Jewish lackeys.

The likelihood that a guy named Jesus was sentenced to crucifixion, by Pontius Pilate around 30ce, is a no brainer. Probably more than one.

Then there's the other details of his history. Mary and Joseph were common names. Lots of people lived in Galilee. The bio of historical Jesus is way beyond plausible.

That's completely different from the mythical Christ. The miracle working demigod. He was publicly executed, resurrected, preached for a few more weeks, then Ascended to Heaven and became part of a previously unknown pantheon, The Trinity. But hardly anyone noticed at the time. I think that it took a few years for Historical Jesus to morph into a Legend, which grew into a Myth once the legend was transplanted into the Greco Roman empire outside of Judea.

I find it interesting to speculate about what kernels of truth got wrapped in so many layers of legend that they became myth, and resulted in the religion that dominates the world I live in. But it's mostly speculation. There's almost no reality, beyond the most prosaic parts.
Tom

No matter how much you want to make these suggestions, I doubt if there was a Jesus hung on a Cross, that it had anything to do with Christianity at all. Thing is it got a lot of stuff from Paganism, then condemns it.

(Atheist) and I don't believe this Jesus person ever existed in the first place, sorry.

 

[TomC]

No matter how much you want to make these suggestions, I doubt if there was a Jesus hung on a Cross, that it had anything to do with Christianity at all. Thing is it got a lot of stuff from Paganism, then condemns it.

I also doubt that historical Jesus had anything to do with modern Christianity. Quite the contrary, He was a Jewish guy who was appalled by Roman paganism. He'd be turning over in His grave if He knew what Paul and the Gospel writers turned His life story into.
That's not the same as "didn't exist". Of course historical Jesus existed. He just had nothing to do with the pagan mythology that developed years later. Then the myth got set into cultural concrete by some Romans in Nicea who called it The Creed.
Tom

 

[FievelJ]

No matter how much you want to make these suggestions, I doubt if there was a Jesus hung on a Cross, that it had anything to do with Christianity at all. Thing is it got a lot of stuff from Paganism, then condemns it.

I also doubt that historical Jesus had anything to do with modern Christianity. Quite the contrary, He was a Jewish guy who was appalled by Roman paganism. He'd be turning over in His grave if He knew what Paul and the Gospel writers turned His life story into.
That's not the same as "didn't exist". Of course historical Jesus existed. He just had nothing to do with the pagan mythology that developed years later. Then the myth got set into cultural concrete by some Romans in Nicea who called it The Creed.
Tom

Christianity and paganism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Christianity came second, not first out of those.
The entire pregnant virgin idea came from Paganism, are you just trying to push Christianity?

 

[TomC]

Christianity came second, not first out of those.
The entire pregnant virgin idea came from Paganism, are you just trying to push Christianity?

Myths about demigods were old news in the Greco Roman world. That's why the myth of Jesus being God's Son worked there.
In the Jewish world, it's anathema. Heresy!

Similarly, Jesus status as a failed Messiah made Christianity heresy. He was gone and the Romans were still brutally oppressing God's Chosen People. The Christians kept promising that Jesus was about to return with a Host of Heavenly Warriors. Any day now! "While some of you standing here are still alive".
40 years later the Romans were demolishing the Temple. That was the end of that Jesus the Messiah thing, at least for the people who knew Him and what a Messiah is.

But the pagans in the Empire didn't care about any of that Jewish nonsense. Christianity continued to grow and evolve.
Tom

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I also doubt that historical Jesus had anything to do with modern Christianity. Quite the contrary, He was a Jewish guy who was appalled by Roman paganism. He'd be turning over in His grave if He knew what Paul and the Gospel writers turned His life story into.
That's not the same as "didn't exist". Of course historical Jesus existed. He just had nothing to do with the pagan mythology that developed years later. Then the myth got set into cultural concrete by some Romans in Nicea who called it The Creed.

So you are saying there is a historical Jesus, same as there is a historical _______________ (fill in the blank). You are saying more specifically there is no historical Christian Jesus. Is that correct? If it is I agree but it's a pretty meaningless distinction as all conversation today about the historical Jesus is about the historical christian Jesus, the gospel protagonist.

 

[dbz]

So you are saying there is a historical Jesus, same as there is a historical _______________ (fill in the blank).

• Obviously! There were many named kings one of which was named with the common Jewish "David". LOL

 

[1Heidegger1!]

I've been debating the Christ Myth Theory lately on Twitter and did a blog post today on Secular Frontier about some of the ideas that were shared: https://secularfrontier.infidels.or...-jesus-exist-on-earth-or-start-out-as-a-myth/

 

[TomC]

I also doubt that historical Jesus had anything to do with modern Christianity. Quite the contrary, He was a Jewish guy who was appalled by Roman paganism. He'd be turning over in His grave if He knew what Paul and the Gospel writers turned His life story into.
That's not the same as "didn't exist". Of course historical Jesus existed. He just had nothing to do with the pagan mythology that developed years later. Then the myth got set into cultural concrete by some Romans in Nicea who called it The Creed.

So you are saying there is a historical Jesus, same as there is a historical _______________ (fill in the blank). You are saying more specifically there is no historical Christian Jesus. Is that correct? If it is I agree but it's a pretty meaningless distinction as all conversation today about the historical Jesus is about the historical christian Jesus, the gospel protagonist.

For what it's worth,
I don't find this discussion important. It's just interesting.
Interesting in the sense that the speculation is fun, but that's all it is. Speculation. It's like discussing professional sports, interesting but not important.

I'm confident that there was a historical figure who did nothing important except provide a legendary figurehead for a religious cult that came to dominate the Western world. He's been dust for 2000 years, completely forgotten. That's Jesus.

Then there's the miracle working demigod who is arguably the most important person in the modern world, despite never existing. That's Christ.

To me, the interesting part is speculation about the overlap. In what way is Historical Jesus the kernel of truth at the center of the legends that became the myth. But it doesn't really matter.
Tom

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

To me, the interesting part is speculation about the overlap. In what way is Historical Jesus the kernel of truth at the center of the legends that became the myth. But it doesn't really matter.

Okay. I think those things do matter so that's just me. For me the HJ is an author, maybe the author of GMark, most likely someone earlier. I liken the discussion to that of Shakespeare Authorship.

 

[Tharmas]

To me, the interesting part is speculation about the overlap. In what way is Historical Jesus the kernel of truth at the center of the legends that became the myth. But it doesn't really matter.

I think what's interesting about it and relevant to today's world is the study of how myth develops in a historical context. National foundation myths rule our politics. Philosophers of science find that many aspects of the so-called scientific method are mythic. The question of why the scientific method works so well is still up for grabs. I could go on. None of us are free from mythic thinking. IMHO.