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The Christ Myth Theory

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Jacob Berman and Godless engineer debated the historicity of Jesus tonight regarding Paul and other things:



I'm mentioning this because the passage in Paul of The Jews killing Jesus (which I first talked about following Benjamin White HERE) came up, as well as Paul's claim that the archons of this aion (rulers of this age) killed Jesus (which I look at in my mythicism essay), probably meaning the evil spirits controlling the rulers, like the gospels saying Satan entered Judas. This must be the case because for Paul the rulers who killed Jesus were evil, and Paul elsewhere says we should obey our human leaders because they are good and chosen by God (Romans 13:1-7). Of course, these good leaders can do evil, but this is because they are under the influence of evil spiritual forces. This is why Christ indwelling in you and possessing you as a spirit is so important because it sanctifies and purges you of evil influence. In other words, the Romans under evil influence (e.g., Pilate denies Jesus justice and executes him because it would be more of a nuisance to release him) killed Jesus, and as Matthew says this was orchestrated by the Jewish high council, and so the blood was also on the hands of the Jews (Matthew 27:25). Jesus's death in Mark is a literary pair with the humiliating unjust death of John the Baptist, just as Jesus's death in Luke-Acts is a literary pair with forgiving Stephen's death.

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... Personally, I'm not persuaded by the Marcion Priority argument and find Dennis MacDonald persuasive on the idea that Marcion abridged Luke: MEDIA=youtube : ogHqVFbc0qM ... I think Paul's idea that the Jews killed Jesus is attested to in Mark's reception history of Paul.

Pauline expert Benjamin White disagrees with the idea that "The Jews Killed Jesus" passage is inauthentic and does not find reason to dismiss it as an interpolation. Paul seems to be a first century apocalyptic Jew navigating through other Jews like the pharisees, Essenes, he says he is not of the super apostle Christ group, etc., and we know from the Dead Sea Scrolls these groups were always going after one another as to who the true people of God are. ...

Thanks, 1Heidegger! I've become interested in the chronology of the N.T. writings "through the back door" -- the historicity controversy.

But I have more questions than answers. One can see that Luke and Matthew accessed Q-Source independently, and that Luke was apparently less fluent in Aramaic. But why does early Mark give scant attention to the Resurrection myth which is so central to other writings? And what about claims that Marcion's Gospel was one of the earliest?

The video you linked to is helpful, but I'm sure you noticed that just watching it is a chore: The video has segments of silence while MacDonald's feed cuts out, for starters.

It would be nice to see a nice scholarly summary on the chronology of the Gospel writings. Scholars focus on interesting little details, but I'd be happier with a brief summary of conclusions and any top-level controversies. Help?
 
Last time I looked a bit at the Berman/Godless Engineer debate about Paul’s claim that Jesus was killed by the archons of this aion (rulers of this age), and this probably reflected the demonic spirits influencing Pilate and the Jews (eg., the crowd, the supreme council) against Jesus. This follows the same idea as when the gospels say Satan entered Judas.

Paul thought he was the prophesied one the Old Testament talked about who would bring the Jewish God to the gentiles and then the end would come. He says, though, that Satan was hindering him in his mission (1 Thess 2:18). Paul’s experience shows that Satan can hinder Christians in many ways, including: Tempting people to sin, Accusing people, Trying to outwit and deceive people, and Ensnaring people. We see the example Paul gives of the super apostles who were converting his followers with another gospel. Scripture says when the word is sewn into a new believer, the devil comes to steal it away (Mark 4:15).

Scripture talks about demonic influencers: e.g., the Prince of Persia, the Prince of the Air, the God of this world – meaning Satan. The Prince of Persia from Daniel chapter 10, for instance, refers to a spiritual entity who pulled the strings behind the Persian empire that ruled the Jews. Daniel 10 reveals that Satan was working behind the scenes to raise up a demonic prince who would pull the strings of the earthly kings to come. We read “Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” (Ephesians 6:12). In what sense was he a ruler? Did he rule a kingdom on earth with a physical demonic army like Sauron in Lord of the Rings? No, he was influencing people to go against God’s ways, like with the corrupt trial of Jesus. Satan was synonymous with going against God’s will, like when Jesus said to Peter’s contrary message “get behind me Satan (Matt 16:23),” or Jesus responding to Satan’s misrepresentation of God’s word during the temptations: “Don’t test God (Matt 4; Luke 4:8).”
 
It seems we agree that "Marcion Abridged Luke (and Paul)". It's good to see we all agree on something!

And Marcion deliberately expunged references to John the Brother. Is there a good explanation of WHY he did that? I know that the Roman Catholic church ignores this brother since it conflicts with their Perpetual Virgin myth. When did that myth become active?
 
If I may, on behalf of everyone here at Internet Infidels / Secular Web I'd like to wish everyone a safe and happy New Year's Eve!

I'd also like to share:

... My Favorite Post of the year: Blogging Through “The Next Quest for the Historical Jesus (2024) by James Crossley (Editor), Chris Keith (Editor)”​


We had a great 2024 and hopefully 2025 will be even better!

Happy New Year to all! And thanks for the link.

Is the book on-line? Meanwhile the first Review (on "Scribal Galilee by Sarah Rollens") I clicked is interesting. Do others agree the following summary has "the ring of truth"? :

Against the idealized picture of how the Jesus movement spread in the Four Gospels, Acts, and Eusebius’s idealized narrative, the collaboration, communication, and spread of ideas through preexisting scribal networks simply make more sense than any other romanticized idea of apostles transporting texts around as part of their “mission” in first-century Roman Palestine… As I have shown, Q uses a cache of imagery and literary techniques that makes sense originating among middling administrative figures. We should thus abandon the idea that illiterate peasants kept the Jesus traditions alive simply by telling stories for decades until the gospels were written. Rather, we can agree with Douglas Oakman that “Jesus of Nazareth entered the pages of history due to the work of sympathetic scribes.”
…In short, village administrators truly might have been some of the most well-connected people in the social landscape of the Roman Empire—akin to the axial figures and mediating intellectuals that we often find facilitating the spread of social and political movements throughout history. The movement of ideas and people through these sorts of networks makes much more sense than simply taking over the gospel myths themselves and concluding that we are dealing with radical itinerant preachers or a cadre of charismatic wonder-workers. Yes, that is what the texts are about, but we are not obliged to accept this as a viable historical explanation for the development of the tradition.

The next review I clicked was on "Missing Pieces by Mark Goodacre" :
Some things mythicists point to is the lack of detail about Jesus in Paul, and Mark as allegorical literature. This, though, needs to be qualified in a way that favors historicity, not mythicism. ... the gospels indicate this selective process of choosing details, which while this problematizes the quest for the historical Jesus since much has been omitted, it does lend weight to the idea that the writers did have sources about Jesus and weren’t just inventing out of whole cloth. Yes, there was mythmaking like haggadic midrash (and mimesis), but this technique at the time was done to historical figures like the Teacher of Righteousness by the Dead Sea Scrolls writers. Regarding the selectivity of the writing process, Goodacre notes [for example " John 21.25: But there are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."

I don't know if that argument for historicity is valid. But the observation I've reddened makes a mockery of much mythicist argument. It's good to hear in this thread from scholars who aren't devout worshipers of Carrierism! ;)
 
The history of the Jewish people is one of them repeatedly disobeying God . . . Thus, the temple cult is impotent...
Paul was "antisemitic" if being against the temple cultus and against some Jew's predilections—is antisemitic.

Constantine introduced burning Jews into the Roman law codes: "Any Jew who stones a convert to Christianity shall be burned, and no one is allowed to join Judaism."

[8:35]
Godless Engineer >>> Obviously for a discussion on the resurrection of Jesus. I don't mind starting at a dude existed. I think this is a perfectly fine position—to start from this [premise]—for this particular part of the conversation.

Alex isn't trying to question what can we know about the historical Jesus—he's just wanting to know about [the historicity of] the resurrection. Does Peterson think that Jesus literally walked out of the Tomb resurrected!
[...]

[18:58] Peterson >>> I believe the accounts, but I have no idea what they mean…

--"Jordan Peterson Attempts to Explain a Historical Resurrection! of Jesus". YouTube. @godlessengineer. 30 December 2024. 8:35 / 36:21


original:

“Navigating Belief, Skepticism, and the Afterlife | Alex O’Connor @CosmicSkeptic | EP 451”. YouTube. @JordanBPeterson. 23 May 2024. “[24:56] …I believe the accounts, but I have no idea what they mean…”
 
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[8:35]
Godless Engineer >>> Obviously for a discussion on the resurrection of Jesus. I don't mind starting at a dude existed. I think this is a perfectly fine position—to start from this [premise]—for this particular part of the conversation.

Alex isn't trying to question what can we know about the historical Jesus—he's just wanting to know about [the historicity of] the resurrection. Does Peterson think that Jesus literally walked out of the Tomb resurrected!

Several different themes and modes of Christianity (e.g. speaking in tongues, casting out devils, belief in miracles) involve modes of thought I will call self-hypnosis or hallucination. The specific theme of a resurrected Jesus "entering" one's own psyche somehow resonates with many human brains (especially in ancient world?) Paul tells us that Peter, the Twelve, James, and finally Paul himself, in that order, witnessed a "Resurrection", though Paul seems to conflate the Resurrection with the Ascension. The "witnessing", if not just pretense, was presumably the result of hypnosis, self-hypnosis or hallucination.

Peter and/or Paul (and the son(s) of Zebedee acc. John's Gospel) hallucinated Resurrection independently, deliberately or subconsciously creating myths about Jesus, Peter's good friend and mentor. Fond memories of the living Jesus plus the memes of resurrection caused this cult to spread rapidly.
 
Hi Swammerdami
You said

Is the book on-line?
There is a Kindle edition on Amazon which is great for all the E-features like Search. I have the Kindle edition.
I don't know if that argument for historicity is valid. But the observation I've reddened makes a mockery of much mythicist argument. It's good to hear in this thread from scholars who aren't devout worshipers of Carrierism! ;)
Thanks. I try to share on the blog thoughts about the historical Jesus. My most recent posts, which I just finished editing are the 3-part

Jesus and the Book of Daniel: πνεῦμα (Septuagint “pneuma”)
(2/2) Jesus and the Book of Daniel: πνεῦμα (Septuagint “pneuma”)
(Conclusion) Jesus and the Book of Daniel: πνεῦμα (Septuagint “pneuma”)

And today a post on individual sin vs corporate sin

Who Killed Jesus? The Christ Myth Theory and Ancient Writing

I try to post on the historical Jesus as an atheist who thinks Jesus is one of the most influential people in history and so I want to know about him. I certainly want to know if he never existed, but I don't think the evidence points to the Doherty-Carrier mythicist thesis.

NEWS:

Prof Bart Ehrman will be holding his 3rd New Insights Into The New Testament (2025) conference this year. This year's topic will be The Historical Jesus, and there will be 10 top scholars presenting. No news on a date yet but should be posted soon. The conference is online and there is lots of audience participation. It's for a general audience.
 
1Heidegger1! said:
I try to post on the historical Jesus as an atheist who thinks Jesus is one of the most influential people in history and so I want to know about him. I certainly want to know if he never existed ...

I agree with 1Heidegger1!. But despite that he DID exist there seems to be no easy consensus on what Jesus was like. Was he clever with parables, or were someone else's parables grafted into his bio? How to explain the healing?

I pursue a simpler question, though it is also hard to answer: Why do many intelligent people insist on denying his historicity? Is this just a peculiar consequence of a "devout" extremist atheism?

Recently I posted with confusing mathematical equations. But nobody (except Carrier the Idiot) actually uses much arithmetic to guess the probability of historicity. My post was intended just to convey a simple fact: Common-sense (AND Bayes' Theorem) tell us to Use the Clues.

Yet some in this thread ignore the clues. Professional historians agree that references to the Lord's brother James is a strong clue, yet some in the thread rant on and on but pretend not to notice James at all!

Clues (including some linked to recently) help us to date Paul's letters. Mythicists depend on those letters being an invention at least half a century after the crucifixion.

Greg Carey said:
If Paul invented Christianity, how did that community in Damascus come to exist? Paul's "conversion," as some call it, occurred within just two or three years of Jesus' death -- and already communities of Jesus followers were spreading beyond Judea and Galilee into Samaria, Syria and other parts of the ancient Mediterranean world.

Moreover, a look at Paul's missionary career debunks the notion that Paul invented Christianity. Having joined the believing community at Damascus, Paul later goes on to Syrian Antioch. The believing community there -- Acts refers to them being called "Christians" -- supports Paul and his partner Barnabas in their missionary activities (Acts 11:19-26). Obviously, the church would not have supported Paul if his teachings represented a radical departure from what they already knew.
. . .
Finally, we have Paul's letter to the churches in Rome. This is the only surviving Pauline letter that addresses a church he has never visited -- again, we see an influential church that Paul had no role in founding. He hopes to visit Rome, build a relationship with the churches there, and rely upon their support for an ongoing mission to Spain (Romans 15:23-24)

John MacDonald said:
Reading this passage [Thess 2:14-16] as a later interpolation (as the Christ myth theory does: if the Paul thought Jews were responsible for Jesus’s death Paul thought Jesus must have existed on earth) as some do is odd because, as I tried to show above, the death of Jesus would likely imply corporate Jewish responsibility as a Jewish interpretation. John the Baptist died a humiliating death because of a few corrupt Jewish leaders, and Jesus’s corrupt horrific torture and death magnified all of this tenfold. Prof Joel Marcus points out that Paul says the Jews are beloved by God because they come from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but enemies of God for rejecting Jesus and his message (Romans 11:28). I find 1 Thess 2:14-16 quite definitive as a refutation of the Christ myth theory if we interpret it from the point of view of how the ancient Jews viewed their corporate history.

The whole debate reminds me of the Shakespeare Authorship Question, though there the positions are reversed: The objective thinkers who study the evidence and conclude Oxford wrote the plays and poems are in a minority. I feel much more competent to debate that topic. Anyone who thinks Shaksper was NOT a hoax, please bump that thread!
 
Interview with Dr. Paola Corrente, an expert in comparative mythology, about the concept of dying and rising gods. Corrente discusses her research on these deities, focusing on specific examples like Baal, Inanna, and Dionysus. She argues that the category of dying and rising gods is valid and that there are connections between these ancient deities and the Christian concept of resurrection. Corrente also highlights the importance of considering the cultural and historical context of these myths, emphasizing that they are not simply allegorical representations of the agricultural cycle but also reflect complex social and political dynamics, such as struggles for power and succession. The interview concludes with a discussion of the similarities and differences between the resurrection of Jesus and the revivification of ancient deities, particularly in terms of the language used to describe these events.

Join Derek Lambert, host of the MythVision Podcast, dives deep into the fascinating world of ancient myths and religions with special guest Dr. Paola Corrente, a distinguished classicist and philologist. Dr. Corrente, whose work builds on the foundational studies of James George Frazer, explores the compelling topic of "Dying and Rising Gods."Discover how this ancient motif—seen in deities like Baal, Inanna, Dionysus, and Osiris—has shaped religious narratives throughout history. From their ties to agricultural cycles and cosmic order to their potential influence on early Christian theology, Dr. Corrente challenges conventional scholarship while providing fresh insights.Through a comparative lens, Derek and Paola discuss the symbolic, magical, and ritualistic elements of these myths, as well as their relevance in understanding modern religious concepts.Don’t miss this thought-provoking conversation that bridges the past and present, shedding light on the shared threads of human belief systems. Be sure to grab Dr. Paola Corrente's book - https://amzn.to/4j6gaV8
 
  1. Carrier, Richard C. (2023). On the historicity of Jesus: why we might have reason for doubt. Vol. "One" (Revised ed.). Sheffield: Sheffield Phoenix Press. ISBN 9781914490248.
  2. Forthcoming second Vol.: Carrier, Richard C. (2025). On the historicity of Jesus: why we might have reason for doubt. Vol. "Two". Sheffield: Sheffield Phoenix Press.
    • Chapter 7 : “The Mistaken Invention of Docetism"
    • Chapter 8 : “Why Romans 1:3 Cannot Demonstrate a Historical Jesus”
    • Chapter 9 : “Why Galatians 4:4 Cannot Demonstrate a Historical Jesus”
    • Chapter 10 : “All Baptized Christians Were the Brothers of the Lord"
 
Peter Kirby » May 25 said:
I undertook to study the book of "Luke," broken up into logical units according to whether the verses are in the Sondergut (special Luke), double tradition (Luke//Matthew), or triple tradition & Mark//Luke. In just one case, that of the fourth chapter, I mixed in some data regarding Marcion's text. I also excluded the genealogy section entirely as it is highly irregular (for text) and unable to offer the kind of data about the habits in the use of natural language that stylometry requires.

--"Who's the Source, "Luke"? -- A Basic Stylometric Study". earlywritings.com
Luke derives from Marcion’s gospel, which the stylometry tests of CBJ confirms.

--Covington, Nicholas (18 August 2024). "Review: Christ Before Jesus". Hume's Apprentice.
 
paulcontext.png

Introduction​

This chapter highlights the prevalence and importance of pseudonymous letter collections of the Second Sophistic. It indicates several commonalities between the so-called authentic letters of Paul and other pseudonymous fictional letter collections of the period. Comparanda include the Platonic Epistles, the Letters of Apollonius of Tyana, and the Correspondence of Paul and Seneca. All these letter collections contain indications of the attempt to hide their fictionality, distinct and apparent changes in the portrait of the featured character between what is known of the figure from elsewhere and his portrayal within the letters, and a lack of chronological coherence among the letters of the collection. The chapter also provides a summary of the Dutch Radical perspective on Pauline letters. In the late-nineteenth century, scholars such as Bruno Bauer, Abraham Loman, Rudolf Steck, and Willem C. van Manen rejected the authenticity of all the Pauline letters, arguing that their developed theology indicated a timeframe beyond the mid-first century and that a lack of evidence of Pauline letters prior to the second century likewise pointed to their second-century emergence and their status as non-Pauline.
[...]

2 - Paul, Pauline Communities, and Genuine Correspondence​

[...] See especially Robyn Faith Walsh, The Origins of Early Christian Literature.


--Livesey NE. Introduction: Challenging a Prevailing Paradigm. In: The Letters of Paul in Their Roman Literary Context: Reassessing Apostolic Authorship. Cambridge University Press; 2024:1-30. [Published online by Cambridge University Press: 05 December 2024]




[01:18:48]

We have earlier proof for both Marcion and the Apostolic Fathers, than we do for the New Testament. We have no evidence that these Pauline epistles (or the gospels) are first century.

We're discussing the Jesus who may or may not have existed. Therefore, I want the earliest sources rather than the later ones, the ones that are not Justin Martyr-ified or perhaps more specifically Irenaeus-ified, because I think he's probably one of the main culprits in this issue.

I want mythicists to:
  • Work out where the texts come from
  • And when the texts are actually dated
Again nothing should be obvious to the skeptic (particularly the mythicists) and then maybe if we can agree on what texts we're going to use and that sort of thing—the methodology—we might have a better argument I think.

And not only would the argument be more productive in terms of you know, "We're working off the same [evidence/methodology]"...

[01:21:55]

--Dr. Jack Bull (3 December 2024). "Dr. Jack Bull with Dr. Aaron Adair". YouTube. History Valley.
 
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"Did Jesus Exist? || Dennis MacDonald / Jacob Berman vs Aaron Adair / John Gleason"[/URL]. YouTube. @godlessengineer. 12 January 2025.

This is a VERY long YouTube; and mostly tedious. Give me partial credit though; I let it drone for several minutes, then pushed Pause. By chance I paused where "Panarion 29.3" caught my and I Googled that. One of the first hits was a convincing article titled "Epiphanius didn’t write about a pre-Christian Jesus." But I didn't need to be convinced. The idea that some 5th-century Christian knew more about the early Church than Josephus, Hegesippus etc. is absurd. More notably, if he had the glimmer of historic knowledge he'd need for citing him to make sense, he'd have known that the connections to Pilate, John the Baptist, Josephus' writings, etc. etc. would all then have to be fictions.

Perhaps by chance I caught the bad apple in a barrelful of convincing proofs! 8-) If so, feel free to itemize, in one's own words the 4 or 5 most convincing arguments in that 2+ hour video. I do NOT need an essay; a time-stamp or enough info to Google should be enough. Just do NOT force me to read Carrier in his original. Show your stuff with a paraphrase.

But DO note that the "Panarion 29.3 proves something" folk think Jesus lived a century EARLIER than historians do. Punchline coming up!

  1. Chapter 9 : “Why Galatians 4:4 Cannot Demonstrate a Historical Jesus”

I read Galatians 4:4. Why in Satan's name would ANYONE think that demonstrated a Historical Jesus?? :confused2:

[*]Chapter 10 : “All Baptized Christians Were the Brothers of the Lord"

We've been around and around on this. James is singled out specifically as a Brother. If you think this phrasing was common in the NT, quote examples. Citing instead the title of a Carrier chapter is less-than-useless gibberish!

[*]Britt, Matthew; Wingo, Jaaron (2024). "Christ Before Jesus: Evidence for the Second-Century Origins of Jesus". Cooper & Samuels Publishing.

And THIS is the punchline! Earlier in the thread I mention one YouTuber(?) who puts Jesus' birth a century BEFORE historians do. And now here's one who puts it a century LATER!! Carrierists have no idea whether to make it a century earlier or a century later; they just know that 99.9% of actual historians must be wrong!

If mythicists could see themselves as rational thinkers see them, they might appreciate themselves as humorists.
 
My academic study On the Historicity of Jesus was published in 2014, by respected biblical studies press Sheffield-Phoenix. It was the first complete study of the historicity of Jesus to pass peer review in over a hundred years. Since then only one other has been published, Raphael Lataster’s Questioning the Historicity of Jesus, published by Brill in 2019. Both studies found doubt more credible than confidence. There has yet to be a countermanding study.

The last ever before ours, finding instead in the affirmative, was Shirley Case’s The Historicity of Jesus: A Criticism of the Contention that Jesus Never Lived, published by the University of Chicago Press in 1912 (with a second edition in 1928). Everything else published since (pro or con) has either not completed anything like a full study of the question, or has not been subject to any reliable kind of peer review (or both). Ever since Case, peer reviewed books on the historical Jesus simply assume historicity, with maybe (if rarely) a few pages on why that’s being assumed, but hardly anything like a real case for it. The field is awaiting—and greatly needs—a serious update of Case, to articulate well-examined (and not merely apologetical) reasons why historicity should continue to be assumed despite all the latest studies finding it shouldn’t. Especially since many of the assumptions Case relies on have been overthrown in mainstream scholarship since. We need a proper response to Carrier 2014 and Lataster 2019; at least, the best possible, so anyone can compare the best case to be made for each side.

Next year will mark the 10th anniversary of OHJ’s publication. In preparation for a possible second edition for that I have already completed a 2023 Revised Edition, and that has now replaced the original in print (the audio edition will not be updated; digital editions might be someday but currently have not been). It has the same pagination (more or less) and merely corrects a plethora of typos and minor errors (nearly everything listed in Errata for On the Historicity of Jesus, originally “Typos List,” which now leads with a list of changes I would still yet make, including updated citations). I am in contract to produce a new volume with Sheffield, and that was first imagined as just a more substantively updated edition of OHJ (not a mere Revised Edition but a full Second Edition). But in consultation with their editorial team we are considering the possibility of instead producing a second volume rather than a second edition, which would address the top controversies launched by On the Historicity of Jesus in the past decade, possibly even in dialogue with other fully-credentialed scholars.

This makes sense, as I am finding that the sorts of things I would change in a second edition are not very substantive: updating the references to cover publications since 2014 (none of which change any conclusions but only reinforce them); updating the wording in some passages to head off the kinds of disingenuous misreadings of the original that critics have undertaken (none of which is necessary for a sincere reader); and adding responses to, at least, those critics who attempted anything like a proper academic review (as in, published in a real academic journal). But that last can be accomplished in more fitting ways: with a dedicated chapter (or chapters) on that point in a new volume (rather than adding pages to the already overlong current volume, which would be necessary even if I could find material safe to subtract), or by publishing in the new volume actual debates or dialogues with other scholars on the point; or both.

If we do settle on this decision (nothing has yet been finalized), that would leave one thing still needed: a useful index to my blog articles updating (or defending against criticism) any argument in On the Historicity of Jesus. This will serve. Below I have organized those articles by subject or purpose. And I intend to keep this updated (so even if the date of this article remains 2023, it will include entries after that year, as they are produced). So readers who want to know if anything has changed, or how I’d respond to anything, since the 2014 edition, in any matter substantially affecting its thesis, can now bookmark and consult this annotated article index.

-:-

Linked Table of Contents

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Critics & Sympathizers

My responses to specific named critics are continuously catalogued in List of Responses to Defenders of the Historicity of Jesus. I also maintain a catalogue of qualified scholars who agree that doubting the historicity Jesus is at least plausible in List of Historians Who Take Mythicism Seriously (which have more than quadrupled in number since I published in 2014). And I maintain an Open Thread On the Historicity of Jesus where any questions about my study (or Lataster’s) can be asked.

-:-

Concerning Points of Method

I describe and defend my Bayesian methodology most thoroughly in Proving History: Bayes’s Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus (Prometheus 2012), which I contractually mandated the publisher have peer-reviewed by one professor of Mathematics and one professor of Biblical Studies (of their choosing). I have written a great deal on Bayesian epistemology since (category: Bayes’ Theorem) and historical methods more generally (category: Historical Method).

But more directly in relation to the thesis of Historicity have been the following articles:
Addressing issues more obscure:
And on “crank” versions of Mythicism and why they should be rejected as implausible:
  • Fincke Is Right: Arguing Jesus Didn’t Exist Should Not Be a Strategy. I explain why “Jesus didn’t exist” is not a good argument against Christianity being true and should not be used that way.
  • The Problem with Varieties of Jesus Mythicism. Surveys the general field of amateur Mythicism, as represented in a recent anthology, and explains why they fail factually and methodologically, and what it actually takes to build a credible thesis.
  • Please No More Astrotheology. In reviewing a whole common category of crank Mythicism from that volume, I outline methodologically why “astrotheological” explanations of the origins of Christianity simply don’t hold water, and what it would actually have taken to reverse that conclusion.
  • Atwill’s Cranked-up Jesus. I address another common category of crank Mythicism, the idea that it was invented by the Roman Imperial government as some kind of psy-op, surveying its factual and methodological defects.
  • James Valliant’s Bogus Theory of a Roman Invention of Christianity. I address the latest “popular” version of Atwill’s thesis and its misuse of the catacombs and numismatic and iconographic evidence. Here I also focus on methodology and what cranks in general are doing wrong.
-:-

Concerning the Prior Probability

  • Jesus and the Problem of the Fraudulent Reference Class. Many don’t like the principle that the more mythically a person is described, the less likely they are to have existed. Here I explain why attempts to get around my approach to estimating prior probability aren’t valid, vs. what would be.
  • My Rank-Raglan Scoring for Osiris. Goes into how I arrived at my score, what principles I used to downscore other heroes, and what constitutes valid and invalid upscoring and downscoring, and why this reference class is real, and matters. There is also important discussion in comments.
  • How Did Christianity Switch to a Historical Jesus? In Historicity, Chapter 6.7, I explain why the objection that such a rapid historicization can’t occur is untrue (and likewise, in Chapters 7.7 and 8.12, that it would occur without notice). Here I expand on my discussion in Chapter 12.3 as to what the most likely sequence of events was, and the evidence we have for it. This was expanded into a chapter in Jesus from Outer Space.
-:-

Concerning the Extrabiblical Evidence

Josephus

There has been an effort to try and rehabilitate the references to Jesus in Josephus, but they are ever more fallacious and even methodologically self-refuting. There are two such passages to account for: the so-called Testimonium Flavianum is a fawning paragraph summarizing the Christian Gospel; and the so-called James Passage is imagined to be about the Christian brother of Jesus named James. Even though in Historicity I don’t depend on either of these being interpolations (their content is equally expected even if Jesus didn’t exist, as they merely repeat the Gospels and statements that would be made by any Christians by then, and therefore even if authentic they offer no further evidence for Jesus), critics have obsessed over debating them anyway, producing a lot of response and analysis that adds to what I have already published.
  • Josephus on Jesus? Why You Can’t Cite Opinions Before 2014. The single most important update to this question, summarizing all pertinent scholarship since Historicity that says anything new. This includes links to other articles of mine on these matters not listed below. And it explains why we can’t keep citing the consensus on this, if the consensus isn’t informed by these new studies.
I now maintain that article with links to all new discussions as they arise (most of which concern not the Testimonium Flavianum but the James passage), so it is the go-to for this subject now.

Tacitus

  • Blom on the Testimonium Taciteum. In response to a peer-reviewed article by Willem Blom, I further discuss why I doubt Tacitus mentioned Jesus, even though I don’t rely on that conclusion in Historicity (there, as with Josephus, my argument follows simply from there being no evidence Tacitus had a source independent of the Gospels). Includes a section on the mentions in Suetonius as well.
  • Margaret Williams on Early Classical Authors on Jesus. Useful review of a book subsequent to my study that supports many positions taken in it; including my response to Williams’ attempted critique of my questioning the authenticity of the material in Tacitus (even though I do not take that position in my study).
  • A Bayesian Brief on Comments at TAM. Addresses an obscure mathematical question raised about my peer-reviewed argument against the authenticity of the Tacitus reference to Jesus.

Others

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Concerning Acts

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Concerning the Gospels

In Historicity, Chapters 7 and 10 (see subject index), I rule out Q as a usable source, because it doesn’t survive, its existence and content are hypothetical at best, and it can’t be reliably dated any earlier than Mark, and so it can’t be established to be independent, only conjectured to be. Lataster’s study, Questioning the Historicity of Jesus, spends more time addressing why it is methodologically unsound to depend on hypothetical sources like Q in this debate. I have also written more on the subject, illustrating why I think Q is a dead hypothesis that really needs to be abandoned:
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--Carrier, Richard (10 July 2023). "An Ongoing List of Updates to the Arguments and Evidence in On the Historicity of Jesus". Richard Carrier Blogs. Retrieved 20 January 2025.
 
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Concerning the Epistles

General Points

1 Thessalonians

Romans

  • Empirical Logic and Romans 1:3. On why my hypothesis of “minimal mythicism” predicts the entire contents of Romans 1:3 and therefore the phrase “came from the sperm of David” cannot even in principle be offered as evidence for the historicity of Jesus, expanding on Historicity, Ch. 11.9.
  • What Did Paul Mean in Romans 1:3? Delves further, outlining the possible meanings of this passage, which go beyond merely the cosmological.
  • The Cosmic Seed of David. Explains in more detail what the cosmological thesis is and why it makes sense in context, becoming a chapter in Jesus from Outer Space.

Galatians

  • Galatians 1:19, Ancient Grammar, and How to Evaluate Expert Testimony. On why “Brother of the Lord” in Galatians cannot be decisively read as meaning a biological brother; in the process outlining the correct methodology needed to resolve such questions, expanding on Historicity, Chapter 11.10 (where also is treated 1 Cor. 9:5).
  • Yes, Galatians 4 Is Allegorical. Some critics keep treating Galatians 4:4 (where Jesus is said to have “come from a woman”) out of context, despite my warning in Historicity, Chapter 11.9, that it must be read in context. Here I fully demonstrate why its context (the argument of Paul beginning in Galatians 3 and spanning to the end of Galatians 4) determines Paul’s intended meaning.

Philemon

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Elementary Questions

Varia

In Chapters 4 and 5 of Historicity I enumerate 48 “Elements” as basic facts of background knowledge (some of which are modal facts, i.e. facts about what is plausible rather than definite) that are true regardless of whether Jesus existed (they are not evidence for or against his existence, but equally compatible with either), and which any theory of his existence (pro or con) must accommodate (because their being true impacts how likely or unlikely other things are). Too much discussion of the historicity of Jesus ignores this data, yet assessments change when accounting for it. Also in this category are the contents of Chapter 7.

The following articles advance discussion on some of these details:
  • Gnosticism Didn’t Exist (Say What Now?). In my six-year postdoc research for Historicity I came to suspect “Gnosticism” didn’t exist as a thing in antiquity, that it was a fallacious construct of modern theorizing, but that was too much of a side issue to resolve. So I didn’t address the question, but simply ignored it; I never mention Gnosticism anywhere in my study. The same year I published, the Westar Institute concluded the same thing. I would have made this a 49th background fact in any new edition of OHJ.
  • Did ‘Docetism’ Really Even Exist? In Historicity I raised the suspicion, but in this later article assertively argue, that “Docetism” might also be a false concept invented by modern scholars, and noted how that changes how we look at some evidence pertaining to the historicity of Jesus. I am more confident of this now, and would make this a 50th background fact.
  • Jesus Is an Extraterrestrial. In Historicity, several Elements were devoted to establishing that the ancient heavens and firmament correspond to what we now call “outer space,” and that this changes how we understand ancient thought. I defend this point more directly in Jesus from Outer Space. And since then, Catherine Hezser has supported this conclusion. I survey that here.
  • Adam’s Burial in Outer Space. In Historicity I discuss traditions depicting the original Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve’s burial sites, as existing in outer space; here I demonstrate that this is indeed what they said, and why this matters to the probability the same could be thought of Jesus.
  • Was Jesus-Is-Michael an Early Christian Mystery Teaching? In a footnote in Historicity I mention my suspicion (but make nothing of it) that the original secret belief of Christians was that Jesus was in fact the incarnation of the angel Michael. Here I survey the evidence collected in a recent peer-reviewed study arguing the same, making the possibility even more probable than I thought.
  • Dying-and-Rising Gods: It’s Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. I dispel the persistent myth that “dying and rising gods” and heroes didn’t exist when Christianity arose. To the contrary, it was a fad.
  • Virgin Birth: It’s Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. Likewise, vis miraculous births and conceptions.
  • Baptism: It’s Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. Likewise, vis baptism as a ritual bonding with a personal savior.
  • Some Controversial Ideas That Now Have Wide Scholarly Support. Principally demonstrates a field-wide acceptance now of a pre-Christian dying-messiah tradition, an early high Christology, and the existence and popularity of a dying-and-rising god mytheme.

Philo’s Angel

In addition to those scattered discussions, the single most controversial section of these chapters was Element 40, which opens (emphasis now added):
In fact, the Christian idea of a preexistent spiritual son of God called the Logos, who was God’s true high priest in heaven, was also not a novel idea but already held by some pre-Christian Jews; and this preexistent spiritual son of God had already been explicitly connected with a celestial Jesus figure in the OT (discussed in Element 6), and therefore some Jews already believed there was a supernatural son of God possibly even named Jesus—because Paul’s contemporary Philo seems to interpret the messianic prophecy of Zech. 6.12 in just such a way.

I had to add these qualifying words to the Revised Edition because the ensuing argument to this being probable was ignored by critics, along with all the arguments I advanced for this conclusion, that some Jews already understood this angel to be named Jesus (among his “many names”). Critics then conflated this one detail with the overall conclusion that this angel existed in pre-Christian Jewish lore regardless of its name. Trying to untangle these errors has been like pulling teeth. I have written a great deal unpacking all these mistakes and why critics really need to stop making them, and deal with the actual argument I presented in Historicity. In the process, I expand and clarify the argument so it is easier to follow, and objections more obviously met.
  • The Difference Between a Historian and an Apologist. Addresses Larry Hurtado’s strange tirade against my Philo’s Angel argument, and analyzes the difference between sound and unsound methodology, illustrating how scholars should be engaging, but aren’t. Probably the best place to start on this debate, as Hurtado was a real expert, so his mistakes cannot be attributed to amateurism; I also here more carefully outline the logic of my argument.
  • Chrissy Hansen on the Pre-Existent Jesus. One of only two peer-reviewed responses on this issue never even mentions much less addresses any of my arguments in the matter, but instead critiques a thesis I never stated (that this angel was worshiped before Jesus); nevertheless, I respond to the arguments Hansen does make.
  • On the Historicity of Jesus: The Daniel Gullotta Review. Links to the subsection of my response to Gulotta’s academic review of Historicity discussing Philo’s angel.
  • The Curious Case of Gnostic Informant: Reaction vs. Research. Links to the subsection of my response to an amateur YouTuber’s attack on my argument and explains why it gets everything about it wrong, factually and logically.
  • Davis Didn’t Check The Literature. Links to the subsection of one of my critiques of Kipp Davis where I demonstrate numerous experts on Zechariah agree with my reading of Philo.
  • Bart Ehrman on How Jesus Became God. My review of Ehrman’s book in which he reverses course and agrees with me that this angel existed and Jesus was believed to be its incarnation (though Ehrman never discusses the question of its name). See also Some Controversial Ideas.

The Ascension of Isaiah

The next most controversial claim among my background knowledge came to be my analysis of the apocryphal Ascension of Isaiah. While in reality nothing I said was historically out of line with other scholars taking the same side in these debates, critics have flipped their lid over it, resorting even to ad hominem and slander. They not only never address any of my actual arguments regarding this text, but they even mistake me as having argued this is evidence against the historicity of Jesus. To the contrary, I use my reconstruction of it as an example of what a mythicist text might have looked like, in my chapter on defining the theory (Chapter 3) rather than defending the theory (Chapters 7 through 11). I make only slight use of it as evidence, scoring it as extremely weak (Chapter 8.6 and 8.13). Again, trying to untangle these errors has been like pulling teeth:

Euhemerization

There has been some confusion over what “Euhemerization” means (in respect to Element 45 in Chapter 5), with various critics confusing it with “deification” or “apotheosis” (it is in fact the opposite phenomenon), or confusing the process itself with the various reasons for deploying the process, which can differ for different authors, who use it to achieve different goals (sometimes exactly the opposite of each other). I have covered these issues in:
  • Euhemerization Means Doing What Euhemerus Did. Explains why Euhemerization (making a non-existent god into a historical person) is by definition the opposite of deification (making an actual historical person into a non-existent god).
  • Brief Note on Euhemerization. Follows up with a demarcation of the process from its motivations. Useful expansions of this are in the ensuing comments as well.

Applications of the Talmud

Impertinent challenges to my employment of evidence from the Talmud for various elements of background knowledge are addressed now in Simone’s Series on How to Read the Talmud: On Jewish Diversity and Simone’s Series on How to Read the Talmud: Boyarin and the Dying Messiah Concept. Even more impertinent challenges were addressed before in Kipp Davis’s Selective Confirmation and Ignoring of Everything I Actually Said and Then Kipp Davis Fails to Heed My Advice and Digs a Hole for Himself.

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--Carrier, Richard (10 July 2023). "An Ongoing List of Updates to the Arguments and Evidence in On the Historicity of Jesus". Richard Carrier Blogs. Retrieved 20 January 2025.
 
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