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The Economics Department

I'm sure your overall point is correct. But I'm not sure that the number of workers adversely affected by moving manufacturing jobs overseas is tiny. Many American workers had blue-collar jobs that paid quite well, but are now too old to retrain or find a new job easily. Are there any statistics on this? How many workers sustained a steep and long-term wage reduction due to the decline of American manufacturing?

On another matter, I think economics discussions here would be more fruitful and more pleasant if less pejorative were directed at one's debating opponents.

Far more jobs were lost to machinery than to outsourcing. I'm thinking of my former employer--while I do not believe the employee count was ever reduced the employees per unit of production dropped 80% in the years I was with them. The only "outsourcing" (to other local providers, nothing was foreign) were specialty options that had not previously been offered and I believe most all of that was eventually brought in-house as the production increased. (If the widget fobber can fob 1000 widgets a day and you only need 100 you're probably better off buying fobbed widgets. If you need 800 you're probably better off fobbing your own widgets.)

Over that time many of the jobs went from actually doing the job to managing the machine that did the job--lower skill, probably lower wage but I didn't see that kind of data. (By the end most regular production tasks were being done by machines, but almost all product flow was being done by humans.)
 
Crybaby Economics

Nutcase Economics

Snake-Oil Economics


I think economics discussions here would be more fruitful and more pleasant if less pejorative were directed at one's debating opponents.


There is nothing wrong with using strong language to identify flaws in the arguments from the other side. (My term "Snake-Oil Economics" might be the same as George Bush's "Voodoo Economics" in his run against Reagan in 1988.) The terminology is legitimate, as long as the meaning is explained and fits the case where it's used. The proper response, if one disagrees, is to defend the one being called by the name (such as defending Reagan's tax-cutting economic theory in that 1988 primary campaign). Strong language is legitimate for adding emphasis.



Crybaby Economics: A benefit is demanded for someone which must be paid for by the whole society, or the whole nation or population. Corporate welfare and trade protectionism are good examples. A good classic example is that of the Luddites in the early 1800s, who demanded that their jobs be saved from the threat of new technology. Obviously it would have imposed much higher costs onto the whole economy, to effectively subsidize their livelihood. Of course there are hundreds of other examples. It's perfectly reasonable to call such crybabies what they are. For some reason they have trouble understanding the damage they inflict onto the whole nation, and calling them a name to emphasize this might be what is necessary to shock them out of their delusionalism (at least in the long term if not the short term). Today's labor unions are guilty of similar economic fallacies, not recognizing the benefits to the economy of competition among all producers and the damage done by cartelism.



Nutcase Economics: These are cases where one is driven to deny obvious facts or truth, which are clearly plain to see. I used the term "nutcase" to describe someone who said that there are "no shortages" during the 2020-21 pandemic situation, where the nightly news regularly reported empty shelves throughout the nation, due to problems with transportation, the truck driver shortage, the cargo ships not being unloaded, etc. These "shortage" problems still persist, whether or not they have been partly relieved. For someone to say there are "no shortages" has to go into the "nutcase" category in face of the constant reporting of this every day in the news. Almost any outburst might come from an immigrant-bashing nativist who can't stand the idea of perhaps allowing more immigrant workers, which would help fix this problem. It would actually be more truthful to just admit that one is a xenophobe rather than deny the plain facts being reported every day on every network and every station.

Other examples of Nutcase Economics would be to deny obvious truths of economics, like the law of supply-and-demand, e.g., claiming that higher production cost has no impact on prices. Some demented employer-bashers, e.g., want to insist that higher labor cost makes no difference in output, and that all the same production and lower prices will continue, despite higher wages being imposed by law onto employers. They imagine that the greedy employers will then just be forced to pay the higher labor cost without any resulting change in their production, because they'll simply become less greedy and accept lower profit. Such flat denial of supply-and-demand is a further example of Nutcase Economics.



Snake-Oil Economics: Some "trickle-down economics" might be in this category, if it means that tax cuts will automatically spur economic growth and generate such new production and profits that the total government revenue will increase rather than decrease. The key is the promise of magic-like outcomes resulting from the measures taken. The "economic stimulus" promises are mostly in this category, claiming that if the government just spends more money, pouring funds into this or that program, to provide incomes to someone, then this generates new spending -- the multiplier effect -- where money is pumped into someone at point A, and this recipient goes out and spends it so someone else at point B gets increased income, who then spends it at point C, and the chain goes on and on generating new incomes everywhere and driving up the GDP, and everyone gets richer. By this reasoning, counterfeiters benefit the economy with the money they print -- as "economic stimulus" -- as long as that money continues to circulate.

FDR was a Snake-Oil salesman with his theory that destroying product, causing shortage, drives up the prices, so producers then make more money and everyone gets richer from this extra income generated to those producers who destroyed their product. This was done among the farmers, who were ordered to destroy their product in order to drive up prices -- dairy farmers were one example, and there were others who plowed their crops under in order to cause shortages.

Another version of this is the falsehood that you generate prosperity by curtailing spending outside your own community or nation, and instead keep all your spending within your group, such as the local community, or within the nation rather than spending it abroad. Because when the money goes "outside" our community or nation, it goes to waste, by stimulating the foreign economies rather than our own. Keeping your spending limited to your own group, even your own race or ethnicity, somehow then magically creates some new prosperity that otherwise would not exist if you just spent your money wherever it's convenient or where you can get the best deal. A radio talk-show host in San Diego is an example of this, claiming that everything bought in China is "junk" or "crap" because the money goes to China rather than being spent in America. So where you spend the money somehow changes what you're buying, turning it from something of value into "junk" because of where the money you're spending ends up.

There are many versions of Snake-Oil Economics, usually promoted by charlatans engaging in some kind of sophistry. Bush's "Voodoo Economics" might be another term for it.



Crybaby Panderers: These are believers in Crybaby Economics, in some sense, but they are not the crybabies per se, but apparently are sympathetic to them, for some unexplained reason. E.g., autoworkers and steelworkers are 2 examples who get much sympathy. Also some small farmers, including dairy farmers, gain extra pity, and it's not clear why these particular victims are selected for this special treatment at everyone else's expense. Somehow these particular groups are in need of special pity because they are high-profile producers of some kind. Also factory workers generally, or laid-off workers generally who are often factory workers. Maybe also fast-food workers, because they are so highly visible and recognized as minimum-wage victims.

And yet at the same time literally millions of poor people, consumers, are damaged by the higher costs imposed onto us all as a result of subsidizing these particular categories of producers we feel sorry for. Most of these high-profile producers are not the poorest but are in the middle-income category, far better off than millions of the consumers who must then pay the higher prices as a result of the special higher costs imposed onto us all in order to give special treatment to these select victim groups we think are entitled to higher incomes regardless of their lower value in the economy. Their lower value is perhaps due to their oversupply, or whatever the supply-and-demand factors may be. Even the low-paid fast-food workers are better off than a large percent of their customers who are even poorer than those workers.

So the crybaby-panderers cannot explain why they choose these particular victims to feel sorry for, and pander for, to increase their incomes, while at the same time ignoring the resulting higher cost burden imposed onto millions, in fact onto the entire population, tens or hundreds of millions of consumers, many of whom are poorer than the crybabies being pandered to and subsidized as victims.

There is nothing wrong with using strong language to describe this damage done to the economy, as long as the terms are defined and applied appropriately to cases which fit the definition.
 
The World Economic Forum's 2022 Report on Global Risks is available for free download.
Its 117 pages are chock-full of graphs and summaries; I'll just excerpt a list of the most pressing problems facing the world as ranked by 1000 global experts and leaders.

1st Climate action failure​
2nd Extreme weather​
3rd Biodiversity loss​
4th Social cohesion erosion​
5th Livelihood crises​
6th Infectious diseases​
7th Human environmental damage​
8th Natural resource crises​
9th Debt crises​
10th Geoeconomic confrontation​
 
But the absolute number of humans going to bed hungry has never been higher than in recent decades.
Source?

distribution-of-population-poverty-thresholds-768x542.png

That graph stops in 2015. But this interesting article asserts that "Hunger has been rising ever since 2014":
For years, it looked as if hunger was heading for extinction. The number of undernourished people fell from 811 million in 2005 to 607 million in 2014. But in 2015, the trend began to turn. Hunger has been rising ever since: to 650 million in 2019, and back to 811 million in 2020. This year is likely to be much worse.

Now brace yourself for the really bad news: this has happened at a time of great abundance. Global food production has been rising steadily for more than half a century, comfortably beating population growth. Last year, the global wheat harvest was bigger than ever. Astoundingly, the number of undernourished people began to rise just as world food prices began to fall. In 2014, when fewer people were hungry than at any time since, the global food price index stood at 115 points. In 2015, it fell to 93, and remained below 100 until 2021.

Only in the past two years has it surged. The rise in food prices is now a major driver of inflation, which reached 9% in the UK last month. Food is becoming unaffordable even to many people in rich nations. The impact in poorer countries is much worse.

The article tries to explain this paradox: Read it. Here is one key paragraph:
A paper in Nature Sustainability reports that in the food system, “shock frequency has increased through time on land and sea at a global scale”. In researching my book Regenesis, I came to realise that it’s this escalating series of contagious shocks, exacerbated by financial speculation, that has been driving global hunger.
 
That graph stops in 2015. But this interesting article asserts that "Hunger has been rising ever since 2014":
For years, it looked as if hunger was heading for extinction. The number of undernourished people fell from 811 million in 2005 to 607 million in 2014. But in 2015, the trend began to turn. Hunger has been rising ever since: to 650 million in 2019, and back to 811 million in 2020. This year is likely to be much worse.

Now brace yourself for the really bad news: this has happened at a time of great abundance. Global food production has been rising steadily for more than half a century, comfortably beating population growth. Last year, the global wheat harvest was bigger than ever. Astoundingly, the number of undernourished people began to rise just as world food prices began to fall. In 2014, when fewer people were hungry than at any time since, the global food price index stood at 115 points. In 2015, it fell to 93, and remained below 100 until 2021.

Only in the past two years has it surged. The rise in food prices is now a major driver of inflation, which reached 9% in the UK last month. Food is becoming unaffordable even to many people in rich nations. The impact in poorer countries is much worse.

The article tries to explain this paradox: Read it. Here is one key paragraph:
A paper in Nature Sustainability reports that in the food system, “shock frequency has increased through time on land and sea at a global scale”. In researching my book Regenesis, I came to realise that it’s this escalating series of contagious shocks, exacerbated by financial speculation, that has been driving global hunger.
There is both overpopulation hunger (sub-Saharan Africa, a systemic problem) and dislocation-caused. The Islamists have greatly increased the amount of dislocation-caused hunger.
 
That graph stops in 2015. But this interesting article asserts that "Hunger has been rising ever since 2014":
For years, it looked as if hunger was heading for extinction. The number of undernourished people fell from 811 million in 2005 to 607 million in 2014. But in 2015, the trend began to turn. Hunger has been rising ever since: to 650 million in 2019, and back to 811 million in 2020. This year is likely to be much worse.

Now brace yourself for the really bad news: this has happened at a time of great abundance. Global food production has been rising steadily for more than half a century, comfortably beating population growth. Last year, the global wheat harvest was bigger than ever. Astoundingly, the number of undernourished people began to rise just as world food prices began to fall. In 2014, when fewer people were hungry than at any time since, the global food price index stood at 115 points. In 2015, it fell to 93, and remained below 100 until 2021.

Only in the past two years has it surged. The rise in food prices is now a major driver of inflation, which reached 9% in the UK last month. Food is becoming unaffordable even to many people in rich nations. The impact in poorer countries is much worse.

The article tries to explain this paradox: Read it. Here is one key paragraph:
A paper in Nature Sustainability reports that in the food system, “shock frequency has increased through time on land and sea at a global scale”. In researching my book Regenesis, I came to realise that it’s this escalating series of contagious shocks, exacerbated by financial speculation, that has been driving global hunger.
There is both overpopulation hunger (sub-Saharan Africa, a systemic problem) and dislocation-caused. The Islamists have greatly increased the amount of dislocation-caused hunger.
There's no "overpopulation hunger".

During the last serious famine in sub-Saharan Africa (the 'Live Aid' famine of the 1980s), it was a well known fact that overpopulation was a major cause.

Ethiopia now has over three times the population, and no famine. That's only possible if the well known fact was utter bollocks.

If population density caused famine, Manhattan, Singapore, The Netherlands, and Hong Kong would all be famine stricken hell-holes.

If population density isn't a problem, then nor is population.

Famine is caused by war, economic disruption, and political actions that are either uncaring or deliberately genocidal. Sub-Saharan Africa has these things in spades.

Population has exactly fuck all to do with it.
 
That graph stops in 2015. But this interesting article asserts that "Hunger has been rising ever since 2014":
For years, it looked as if hunger was heading for extinction. The number of undernourished people fell from 811 million in 2005 to 607 million in 2014. But in 2015, the trend began to turn. Hunger has been rising ever since: to 650 million in 2019, and back to 811 million in 2020. This year is likely to be much worse.

Now brace yourself for the really bad news: this has happened at a time of great abundance. Global food production has been rising steadily for more than half a century, comfortably beating population growth. Last year, the global wheat harvest was bigger than ever. Astoundingly, the number of undernourished people began to rise just as world food prices began to fall. In 2014, when fewer people were hungry than at any time since, the global food price index stood at 115 points. In 2015, it fell to 93, and remained below 100 until 2021.

Only in the past two years has it surged. The rise in food prices is now a major driver of inflation, which reached 9% in the UK last month. Food is becoming unaffordable even to many people in rich nations. The impact in poorer countries is much worse.

The article tries to explain this paradox: Read it. Here is one key paragraph:
A paper in Nature Sustainability reports that in the food system, “shock frequency has increased through time on land and sea at a global scale”. In researching my book Regenesis, I came to realise that it’s this escalating series of contagious shocks, exacerbated by financial speculation, that has been driving global hunger.
There is both overpopulation hunger (sub-Saharan Africa, a systemic problem) and dislocation-caused. The Islamists have greatly increased the amount of dislocation-caused hunger.
There's no "overpopulation hunger".

During the last serious famine in sub-Saharan Africa (the 'Live Aid' famine of the 1980s), it was a well known fact that overpopulation was a major cause.

Ethiopia now has over three times the population, and no famine. That's only possible if the well known fact was utter bollocks.

If population density caused famine, Manhattan, Singapore, The Netherlands, and Hong Kong would all be famine stricken hell-holes.

If population density isn't a problem, then nor is population.

Famine is caused by war, economic disruption, and political actions that are either uncaring or deliberately genocidal. Sub-Saharan Africa has these things in spades.

Population has exactly fuck all to do with it.
Amigo, I don't think that you've ever had teenagers in your house before! I need to get a second job to feed the three in my house!
 
There's no "overpopulation hunger".

During the last serious famine in sub-Saharan Africa (the 'Live Aid' famine of the 1980s), it was a well known fact that overpopulation was a major cause.

Ethiopia now has over three times the population, and no famine. That's only possible if the well known fact was utter bollocks.

If population density caused famine, Manhattan, Singapore, The Netherlands, and Hong Kong would all be famine stricken hell-holes.

If population density isn't a problem, then nor is population.

Famine is caused by war, economic disruption, and political actions that are either uncaring or deliberately genocidal. Sub-Saharan Africa has these things in spades.

Population has exactly fuck all to do with it.
Overpopulation hunger happens when the population exceeds what the country can produce + what the country can buy with exporting non-food that it can produce.
 
There's no "overpopulation hunger".

During the last serious famine in sub-Saharan Africa (the 'Live Aid' famine of the 1980s), it was a well known fact that overpopulation was a major cause.

Ethiopia now has over three times the population, and no famine. That's only possible if the well known fact was utter bollocks.

If population density caused famine, Manhattan, Singapore, The Netherlands, and Hong Kong would all be famine stricken hell-holes.

If population density isn't a problem, then nor is population.

Famine is caused by war, economic disruption, and political actions that are either uncaring or deliberately genocidal. Sub-Saharan Africa has these things in spades.

Population has exactly fuck all to do with it.
Overpopulation hunger happens when the population exceeds what the country can produce + what the country can buy with exporting non-food that it can produce.
+ charity food shipments into the country from other countries and organizations.
 
There's no "overpopulation hunger".

During the last serious famine in sub-Saharan Africa (the 'Live Aid' famine of the 1980s), it was a well known fact that overpopulation was a major cause.

Ethiopia now has over three times the population, and no famine. That's only possible if the well known fact was utter bollocks.

If population density caused famine, Manhattan, Singapore, The Netherlands, and Hong Kong would all be famine stricken hell-holes.

If population density isn't a problem, then nor is population.

Famine is caused by war, economic disruption, and political actions that are either uncaring or deliberately genocidal. Sub-Saharan Africa has these things in spades.

Population has exactly fuck all to do with it.
Overpopulation hunger happens when the population exceeds what the country can produce + what the country can buy with exporting non-food that it can produce.
That's an economic failure, not a population problem.

Adult humans can produce more food than they need to survive. They can produce FAR more non-food value which they can exchange for food, than they need to survive.

Therefore, the higher your population, the greater your potential is to obtain surplus food, and this will be true until the total farmable land on the planet is insufficient to sustain a given population.

'Local overpopulation' isn't a thing. Just ask the people of Tokyo, Manhattan, Shanghai, London, The Netherlands, etc., etc.

If you impose a political and/or economic system that prevents people from turning their skills and effort into food for themselves and their families, calling that situation 'overpopulation' is stupid, misleading, and downright wrong.

The planet currently produces enough food to feed about 150% of its current population, and the consensus amongst demographers is that human population will never reach that level - but if it did, food production would certainly be able to be significantly increased. Just using extant technologies to improve farm yields in places that don't currently use those technologies can achieve that, without even turning any further land over to food production.

'Overpopulation' isn't a thing, and never has been. It was a speculative future state for a world that had geometric population growth; And such a world must inevitably outstrip its resources. But that geometric growth was an ephemeral characteristic of a world with high productivity, good medical science, and no effective, safe, and widely available contraceptive options in the control of women. That world existed from about 1850-1960; And people near the end of that time period were (correctly) alarmed by what they could see happening.

But it's no longer happening, and we have avoided the future speculative state that was called 'overpopulation' by those who saw and feared this potential future.

Meanwhile, lots of idiots have adopted the word 'overpopulation' as an excellent handwave excuse for continuing political and economic cruelty in the third world, where any attempt at a practical solution can be dismissed by invoking the inevitability of hunger due to 'overpopulation', thereby enabling racist fucks to argue that the rest of us shouldn't help those who are suffering.

There's just the right number of us, but there are simply too many of them. As any fascist can tell you.
 
There's no "overpopulation hunger".

During the last serious famine in sub-Saharan Africa (the 'Live Aid' famine of the 1980s), it was a well known fact that overpopulation was a major cause.

Ethiopia now has over three times the population, and no famine. That's only possible if the well known fact was utter bollocks.

If population density caused famine, Manhattan, Singapore, The Netherlands, and Hong Kong would all be famine stricken hell-holes.

If population density isn't a problem, then nor is population.

Famine is caused by war, economic disruption, and political actions that are either uncaring or deliberately genocidal. Sub-Saharan Africa has these things in spades.

Population has exactly fuck all to do with it.
Overpopulation hunger happens when the population exceeds what the country can produce + what the country can buy with exporting non-food that it can produce.
That's an economic failure, not a population problem.

Adult humans can produce more food than they need to survive. They can produce FAR more non-food value which they can exchange for food, than they need to survive.

Depends on how much land is available. That's what triggered the massive murder spree in Rwanda--there wasn't enough land to go around. There are more other opportunities these days, reducing the problem.
 
There's no "overpopulation hunger".

During the last serious famine in sub-Saharan Africa (the 'Live Aid' famine of the 1980s), it was a well known fact that overpopulation was a major cause.

Ethiopia now has over three times the population, and no famine. That's only possible if the well known fact was utter bollocks.

If population density caused famine, Manhattan, Singapore, The Netherlands, and Hong Kong would all be famine stricken hell-holes.

If population density isn't a problem, then nor is population.

Famine is caused by war, economic disruption, and political actions that are either uncaring or deliberately genocidal. Sub-Saharan Africa has these things in spades.

Population has exactly fuck all to do with it.
Overpopulation hunger happens when the population exceeds what the country can produce + what the country can buy with exporting non-food that it can produce.
That's an economic failure, not a population problem.

Adult humans can produce more food than they need to survive. They can produce FAR more non-food value which they can exchange for food, than they need to survive.

Depends on how much land is available. That's what triggered the massive murder spree in Rwanda--there wasn't enough land to go around. There are more other opportunities these days, reducing the problem.
So is your thesis that Manhattan’s high murder rate was due to the lack of available land?

Should we expect genocide in The Netherlands?

Or is your response just self-evidently nonsensical claptrap, that you believe because you haven’t really thought it through?

The thing that sets Rwanda apart isn’t population density (which is exactly the same thing as “not enough land to go around”); It’s politics and economics (in Rwanda, mostly political tribalism of a kind that the modern American right-wing AM radio host would find completely familiar).

Population is demonstrably not the problem, or Amsterdam would be a notoriously murderous hell-hole.
 
There's no "overpopulation hunger".

During the last serious famine in sub-Saharan Africa (the 'Live Aid' famine of the 1980s), it was a well known fact that overpopulation was a major cause.

Ethiopia now has over three times the population, and no famine. That's only possible if the well known fact was utter bollocks.

If population density caused famine, Manhattan, Singapore, The Netherlands, and Hong Kong would all be famine stricken hell-holes.

If population density isn't a problem, then nor is population.

Famine is caused by war, economic disruption, and political actions that are either uncaring or deliberately genocidal. Sub-Saharan Africa has these things in spades.

Population has exactly fuck all to do with it.
Overpopulation hunger happens when the population exceeds what the country can produce + what the country can buy with exporting non-food that it can produce.
That's an economic failure, not a population problem.

Adult humans can produce more food than they need to survive. They can produce FAR more non-food value which they can exchange for food, than they need to survive.

Depends on how much land is available. That's what triggered the massive murder spree in Rwanda--there wasn't enough land to go around. There are more other opportunities these days, reducing the problem.
That is a unique way of "understanding" the Rwandan genocide. My understanding is that it was a tribal war between the Tutsi and Hutu that had long standing tribal animosities (meaning a lot of political friction and hostility). There was no hunger due to 'overpopulation' before the genocide (Rwanda was a major food exporter) but there was afterword due to the genocide... surprisingly, food production drops when the farmers are killed.
 
Depends on how much land is available. That's what triggered the massive murder spree in Rwanda--there wasn't enough land to go around. There are more other opportunities these days, reducing the problem.
So is your thesis that Manhattan’s high murder rate was due to the lack of available land?

Should we expect genocide in The Netherlands?

Or is your response just self-evidently nonsensical claptrap, that you believe because you haven’t really thought it through?

The thing that sets Rwanda apart isn’t population density (which is exactly the same thing as “not enough land to go around”); It’s politics and economics (in Rwanda, mostly political tribalism of a kind that the modern American right-wing AM radio host would find completely familiar).

Population is demonstrably not the problem, or Amsterdam would be a notoriously murderous hell-hole.
Rwanda had neither enough land for farming nor exports sufficient to buy enough food. Once the ethnic violence started a whole bunch of people took advantage of the situation to kill off those they saw as competition.
 
Depends on how much land is available. That's what triggered the massive murder spree in Rwanda--there wasn't enough land to go around. There are more other opportunities these days, reducing the problem.
So is your thesis that Manhattan’s high murder rate was due to the lack of available land?

Should we expect genocide in The Netherlands?

Or is your response just self-evidently nonsensical claptrap, that you believe because you haven’t really thought it through?

The thing that sets Rwanda apart isn’t population density (which is exactly the same thing as “not enough land to go around”); It’s politics and economics (in Rwanda, mostly political tribalism of a kind that the modern American right-wing AM radio host would find completely familiar).

Population is demonstrably not the problem, or Amsterdam would be a notoriously murderous hell-hole.
Rwanda had neither enough land for farming nor exports sufficient to buy enough food. Once the ethnic violence started a whole bunch of people took advantage of the situation to kill off those they saw as competition.
I agree. But what does that have to do with population? It’s a purely economic and political problem.

If we stopped selling food to Manhattanites, I am sure the island would erupt into an orgy of violence. Does this imply that Manhattan is overpopulated, and therefore doomed?

If your argument started with just “Rwanda didn’t have enough land for farming”, then you might have a point. But your need to add “nor exports sufficient to buy enough food” exposes the fact that population density wasn’t the problem. Exports were the problem. Imports were the problem. Tribalism was the problem. Take away population density, and the problem remains. Leave nothing but population density, and (as Manhattan demonstrates), the problem disappears.

Therefore population density isn’t a critical causal factor. It may be necessary, but it’s not sufficient. Population isn’t the problem.
 
If your argument started with just “Rwanda didn’t have enough land for farming”, then you might have a point. But your need to add “nor exports sufficient to buy enough food” exposes the fact that population density wasn’t the problem. Exports were the problem. Imports were the problem. Tribalism was the problem. Take away population density, and the problem remains. Leave nothing but population density, and (as Manhattan demonstrates), the problem disappears.

Therefore population density isn’t a critical causal factor. It may be necessary, but it’s not sufficient. Population isn’t the problem.
Rwanda didn't have land for food, nor did it have industry for exports. You need production in some form and Rwanda didn't have enough.
 
If your argument started with just “Rwanda didn’t have enough land for farming”, then you might have a point. But your need to add “nor exports sufficient to buy enough food” exposes the fact that population density wasn’t the problem. Exports were the problem. Imports were the problem. Tribalism was the problem. Take away population density, and the problem remains. Leave nothing but population density, and (as Manhattan demonstrates), the problem disappears.

Therefore population density isn’t a critical causal factor. It may be necessary, but it’s not sufficient. Population isn’t the problem.
Rwanda didn't have land for food, nor did it have industry for exports. You need production in some form and Rwanda didn't have enough.
So, not a population issue, then.
 
If your argument started with just “Rwanda didn’t have enough land for farming”, then you might have a point. But your need to add “nor exports sufficient to buy enough food” exposes the fact that population density wasn’t the problem. Exports were the problem. Imports were the problem. Tribalism was the problem. Take away population density, and the problem remains. Leave nothing but population density, and (as Manhattan demonstrates), the problem disappears.

Therefore population density isn’t a critical causal factor. It may be necessary, but it’s not sufficient. Population isn’t the problem.
Rwanda didn't have land for food, nor did it have industry for exports. You need production in some form and Rwanda didn't have enough.
So, not a population issue, then.
Without industry the only means for most people to live was farming. They didn't have enough land to farm.
 
If your argument started with just “Rwanda didn’t have enough land for farming”, then you might have a point. But your need to add “nor exports sufficient to buy enough food” exposes the fact that population density wasn’t the problem. Exports were the problem. Imports were the problem. Tribalism was the problem. Take away population density, and the problem remains. Leave nothing but population density, and (as Manhattan demonstrates), the problem disappears.

Therefore population density isn’t a critical causal factor. It may be necessary, but it’s not sufficient. Population isn’t the problem.
Rwanda didn't have land for food, nor did it have industry for exports. You need production in some form and Rwanda didn't have enough.
So, not a population issue, then.
Without industry the only means for most people to live was farming. They didn't have enough land to farm.
So, not a population issue then.
 
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