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The ever widening gap between the rich and poor

I might join this income inequality fight, but I want nothing to do with the class warfare mindset. I don't buy the idea that the "economic elite" are like a hive mind. If you think they sit around all day plotting how to screw over the common man for the sake of moving up the Forbes list, you probably need to be on medication.

In their neverending pursuit to out-rich each other.....'cause, after all, there's a point at which their wealth merely becomes a "score", designating which high-roller$/1%ers are winning their private-lil'-scrimmage....the LAST thing they're thinking-about is the common man.
 
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Income inequality is a natural consequence of the system. If it is left uncorrected, then a wealth will end up concentrated in a small number of hands; but that doesn't require anything nefarious on the part of the few who end up wealthy.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

 
Looks like the trend started in the mid to late 1970s. And people were noticing the trend by the 2000s. It takes awhile to get people's dander up.

We have a couple of brothers who intend to buy our next election with about 900million bucks. There is no reason for anybody anywhere near the middle of the scale or the bottom for that matter to be comforted by the structural unfairness of our economy, so it looks like these guys have done a pretty good job of keeping us off balance and away from democracy.:eek:

Fun_1080.jpg
 
We have a couple of brothers who intend to buy our next election with about 900million bucks. There is no reason for anybody anywhere near the middle of the scale or the bottom for that matter to be comforted by the structural unfairness of our economy, so it looks like these guys have done a pretty good job of keeping us off balance and away from democracy.:eek:

Fun_1080.jpg

Can you think of anywhere else that the very situation in the pic gets played out regularly? Hint: It's a four letter word that starts with G.
 
''The ever widening gap between the rich and poor ''

I wonder how far this is going to go before something gives. Incredible that inequity and exploitation has gone this far.

Sometimes, people of their own will to survive overcome addictions...sometimes not. Not all rich men are either selfish or spiteful or fearful or dominating, but:
They tend to lead separate lives with sufficient insulation to obscure to their consciousness the consequences of their activities. Often the consequences are simply not anticipated, but in the end, they are considered fair exchange for the good lives the economy gives them. That's how these differences arise in the first place. The picture one gets of the difference becomes black and white here when it really is not that type of an issue at all. It is a matter of certain individuals hold to a concept they accept as "right" just as "right" as being a king can be. And the poor, unseen and unknown collateral victims look at the walls of self righteous wealthy people and pick out their favorite most horrible person and hate him. I think the problem is us letting our class dictate to us what we think.

A poor person does not think about building a sky scraper or negotiating a massive win in the stock market. A rich person does not think about building housing for the homeless or feeding the hungry. Rich and poor think different kinds of thoughts. They think about different kinds of things. So there is no meeting of the minds. Each refuses to have any empathy for the other. And society and individual people get genuinely hurt by this separation. That is a primary reason to talk about universal education. I believe that has to happen and all citizens need to understand the basis of our civil existence.
 
Looks like the trend started in the mid to late 1970s. And people were noticing the trend by the 2000s. It takes awhile to get people's dander up.

Dear friend, I hate to disagree with you, but this trend started long before 1943. The chart show a fairly consistent advantage for these 1%er bloodsuckers throughout our history as a nation. I wish to thank Axulus for showing us that historically the 1% in question have ALWAYS ENJOYED BETWEEN A FIFTEEN TO TWENTY-FOUR FOLD ADVANTAGE IN INCOME...at least for the entire 20th century. The problem is that this advantage cannot be sustained forever without increased suffering on the bottom end of the scale.

Several of our earliest presidents owned in excess of 100 slaves...but their suffering occurred off the books behind closed doors. Now it all goes on the books...if we can only find the books. Many of the more creative "financial instruments" are purposely designed to hide the advantages and I feel confident that the chart presented actually only represented the portion of the 1%'s robbery that could be found. Today the top 0.1% enjoy more than a thousand fold advantage in income and I am sure they feel relieved to "averaged" in with the rest of the top 1%. Any cover is better than the naked truth. People who enjoy this disparity do everything in their power to hide the details.

You seem more concerned with bringing the "bloodsuckers" down than bringing the rest of us up. I'm not advocating trickle-down economics just pointing out that you want to punish the few at the top.

We have a couple of brothers who intend to buy our next election with about 900million bucks. There is no reason for anybody anywhere near the middle of the scale or the bottom for that matter to be comforted by the structural unfairness of our economy, so it looks like these guys have done a pretty good job of keeping us off balance and away from democracy.:eek:

Yeah, never mind the fact that that wealthy liberals topped the the list of super PAC donors in 2014.
 
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2013 data just added. Doesn't look like much of a trend since 2000. Why weren't we hearing so many complaints about the issue back then?

BTW, this graph is pretty much bogus.

That time where the number was around 10% is also the time where there were vast loopholes in the tax code. We can't make a reasonable evaluation of income or true tax rates in this time period because there were so many ways to keep money from being income in the first place.
Loren Pechtel, why don't you do the research? Yes, research. Show everybody that you are MUCH smarter than Thomas Piketty. You should have no trouble proving that the  Great Compression had never happened.
 
Dear friend, I hate to disagree with you, but this trend started long before 1943. The chart show a fairly consistent advantage for these 1%er bloodsuckers throughout our history as a nation. I wish to thank Axulus for showing us that historically the 1% in question have ALWAYS ENJOYED BETWEEN A FIFTEEN TO TWENTY-FOUR FOLD ADVANTAGE IN INCOME...at least for the entire 20th century. The problem is that this advantage cannot be sustained forever without increased suffering on the bottom end of the scale.

Several of our earliest presidents owned in excess of 100 slaves...but their suffering occurred off the books behind closed doors. Now it all goes on the books...if we can only find the books. Many of the more creative "financial instruments" are purposely designed to hide the advantages and I feel confident that the chart presented actually only represented the portion of the 1%'s robbery that could be found. Today the top 0.1% enjoy more than a thousand fold advantage in income and I am sure they feel relieved to "averaged" in with the rest of the top 1%. Any cover is better than the naked truth. People who enjoy this disparity do everything in their power to hide the details.

You seem more concerned with bringing the "bloodsuckers" down than bringing the rest of us up. I'm not advocating trickle-down economics just pointing out that you want to punish the few at the top.

We have a couple of brothers who intend to buy our next election with about 900million bucks. There is no reason for anybody anywhere near the middle of the scale or the bottom for that matter to be comforted by the structural unfairness of our economy, so it looks like these guys have done a pretty good job of keeping us off balance and away from democracy.:eek:

Yeah, never mind the fact that that wealthy liberals topped the the list of super PAC donors in 2014.

My concern is getting the rich bloodsuckers...neo-liberals and conservatives...to stop sucking the blood and resources needed to bring the rest of us up. I did explain in post #45 that it is not necessarily on the radar of the rich that there is anything wrong with what they do. They have a significant impact on our society with their billions and it is always in their favor. My interest is in the social and environmental focus of the discussions much more than punishing anybody. I believe there are however in the billionaire club a number of people who actually are a very serious impact on our environment and mentioned a pair of them in the post who appear to be among the most grevious actors whose operations have huge footprints and who simply will never relent. That does not mean they cannot but their thinking is to never relent, to divert, to lie outright and use their huge fortunes to install their lies and liars in power.

I checked your list from the sunlight foundation and note the biggest donor on the list is less than 10% of the Koch's intended donations in 2015.
 
That a large gap between a small percentage of super wealthy and the rest of society has existed for long, long time makes it ethically acceptable? We should just be thankful for whatever 'trickles' down?

The gap isn't very large.

Both groups don't go hungry.

The life expectancy difference between the two is maybe 4-6 years.

The years of education difference is 4-6 years.

The amount of leisure time difference is maybe 100-200 hours per year difference, if that.

Both groups consume similar entertainment most of the time: music, movies, television, video games.

Rarely can you tell the difference between the two based on clothing alone. The difference in quality of clothing is small.

The warmth in the home during winter is the same. The cooling during the summer is the same.

The most menial of tasks haunting the human species throughout history are eliminated for both (though means of other than working an 8 hour per day job 5 days a week to pay for it): gathering water, gathering food, finding shelter and adequate warmth, cleaning clothes.

Both typically live a life free of war and violent victimization.

The happiness difference and the life satisfaction difference is not very large.

No, the gap that exists today has never before existed. It is smaller than it has ever been in the history of the human species.

Surely you jest! Your list demonstrates your lack of contact with the underclasses in America.
 
The gap isn't very large.

Both groups don't go hungry.

The life expectancy difference between the two is maybe 4-6 years.

The years of education difference is 4-6 years.

The amount of leisure time difference is maybe 100-200 hours per year difference, if that.

Both groups consume similar entertainment most of the time: music, movies, television, video games.

Rarely can you tell the difference between the two based on clothing alone. The difference in quality of clothing is small.

The warmth in the home during winter is the same. The cooling during the summer is the same.

The most menial of tasks haunting the human species throughout history are eliminated for both (though means of other than working an 8 hour per day job 5 days a week to pay for it): gathering water, gathering food, finding shelter and adequate warmth, cleaning clothes.

Both typically live a life free of war and violent victimization.

The happiness difference and the life satisfaction difference is not very large.

No, the gap that exists today has never before existed. It is smaller than it has ever been in the history of the human species.

Surely you jest! Your list demonstrates your lack of contact with the underclasses in America.

He said "the rest of society", not "the underclass". Words used are important.

And even then, unless you are talking about the bottom 10% only, my analysis is quite accurate.
 
Except that's not what we see.

Wealth does tend to concentrate--some people more value current spending, some people more value investing for the future/for a rainy day. If everyone were immortal you would eventually end up with all the wealth in the hands of the savers.

However, we are not immortal. While fortunes are made they get passed on to those who aren't such savers--in practice they are dissipated in a few generations at most.

This isn't yet completely established in the US, because yours is a young nation and the 'shaking out' is still occurring. But if you look at a society that has had several centuries for the system to operate largely unchecked - for example 19th Century England - you find that the people with all the money are the great-times-15-grandsons of people who were Henry VIIIs drinking buddies. They are rich because they are rich - and it is almost impossible (in the absence of deliberate wealth redistribution) to get rich starting from poverty; and nearly as difficult to get poor starting from great wealth.

Back then, yes. There was a very big difference back then--those people did not have piles of money in the bank. Rather, their wealth was generally in the form of a single asset that produced income. This made it much harder for it to be dissipated over time--not to mention laws specifically designed to keep it from being dissipated.

The world no longer has such factors keeping it from being dissipated. The heirs will tend to spend it and it will be split amongst multiple heirs. That erodes it pretty fast.

Before the industrial revolution, wealth was often in the form of a single asset class - agricultural land - but rarely a single asset.

Using 19th Century England as an example, the industrial revolution brought great diversity of investments; and with it, approximately fuck all change in the concentration of wealth - which pretty well explodes your hypothesis.

Concentration of wealth didn't begin to fall significantly even with the introduction of income taxation; Inheritance taxes started to have an impact after WWI, but it took the introduction of the welfare state after WWII to finally break the stranglehold of the aristocracy on the wealth of the nation, and to allow the very poor to achieve a standard of living sufficient to make a long healthy life a realistic goal for a person born into poverty.

Inheritance can dissipate wealth, if two conditions apply - large families need to be typical; and several members of the next generation must typically inherit a sizable fraction of any given estate. The former was true before WWII, but is less true today; the absence of the latter, however, was a defining feature of the aristocracy in England for at least nine centuries. I see no reason to expect that such voluntary dissipation of wealth will ever become the norm; and indeed we observe that it was not normal in the past. Unless the law compels parents to give all offspring equal status in their wills - something that it does not currently do - there is no reason other than pure hope to imagine that wealth concentrations will dissipate naturally over time.

The idea that you can already determine by observation that things 'now' are different from 'back then' with regard to inheritance is crazy - there have only been three or four generations in total since WWII, and the massive shift in inheritance taxation, and the provision of welfare (funded by income tax) to the poor that has occurred since then, will mask any such trends that might exist independent of the effects of inheritance taxes for at least several more generations yet.

Once a person has sufficient inherited wealth, it takes a lot more than being 'Not much of a saver' to dissipate it. It is possible to go from a mere millionaire to penury in one generation. But it is very hard indeed to go from being a billionaire to penury, without actively trying to lose one's fortune. Even with a fairly poor investment strategy, and a profligate party lifestyle, it is difficult to spend your money faster than it accumulates, once you reach that kind of wealth. And most of the ways that it is possible, involve transfer of that wealth to other already wealthy people.

A billionaire might lose his fortune on Wall Street (if he tries hard enough), but none of those losses put his wealth in the hands of the poor - indeed to lose that sort of money requires either an extremely abnormal degree of idiocy, and/or to be the victim of fraud, and neither hedge fund managers, nor fraudsters who bilk billionaires, generally give the proceeds to the poor and destitute. He might even be able to lose his fortune gambling at cards, or on horses, or any number of other gambler's vices - but such losses necessarily go to those who have already sufficient wealth to cover large bets.

An individual wealthy person (or family) might fall on hard times; but rarely does this occur in a way that does anything to significantly reduce the concentration of wealth - the beneficiaries are typically other wealthy people, and/or few in number, and so the overall position remains unchanged.

It is possible for a hyper-rich person to disperse his wealth in ways that do not simply further enrich other hyper-rich individuals; but it is far from common; and to avoid the trend of wealth concentration over the long term, it must not only be common, it must be typical.

Only by imposing progressive taxes, plus sizable inheritance taxes, and using those tax revenues to benefit the poor, can the trend towards ever greater concentration of wealth be mitigated.
 
BTW, this graph is pretty much bogus.

That time where the number was around 10% is also the time where there were vast loopholes in the tax code. We can't make a reasonable evaluation of income or true tax rates in this time period because there were so many ways to keep money from being income in the first place.
Loren Pechtel, why don't you do the research? Yes, research. Show everybody that you are MUCH smarter than Thomas Piketty. You should have no trouble proving that the  Great Compression had never happened.

I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm saying we don't know one way or the other as the data from the time in question is bogus.
 
Loren Pechtel, why don't you do the research? Yes, research. Show everybody that you are MUCH smarter than Thomas Piketty. You should have no trouble proving that the  Great Compression had never happened.

I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm saying we don't know one way or the other as the data from the time in question is bogus.

How is it bogus?

(In case you still haven't figured it out, simply declaring something to be so doesn't make it so)
 
You seem more concerned with bringing the "bloodsuckers" down than bringing the rest of us up. I'm not advocating trickle-down economics just pointing out that you want to punish the few at the top.

We have a couple of brothers who intend to buy our next election with about 900million bucks. There is no reason for anybody anywhere near the middle of the scale or the bottom for that matter to be comforted by the structural unfairness of our economy, so it looks like these guys have done a pretty good job of keeping us off balance and away from democracy.:eek:

Yeah, never mind the fact that that wealthy liberals topped the the list of super PAC donors in 2014.

My concern is getting the rich bloodsuckers...neo-liberals and conservatives...to stop sucking the blood and resources needed to bring the rest of us up. I did explain in post #45 that it is not necessarily on the radar of the rich that there is anything wrong with what they do. They have a significant impact on our society with their billions and it is always in their favor. My interest is in the social and environmental focus of the discussions much more than punishing anybody. I believe there are however in the billionaire club a number of people who actually are a very serious impact on our environment and mentioned a pair of them in the post who appear to be among the most grevious actors whose operations have huge footprints and who simply will never relent. That does not mean they cannot but their thinking is to never relent, to divert, to lie outright and use their huge fortunes to install their lies and liars in power.

Ok, why don't you aim your dislike at the specific rich individuals who are a problem in your mind. There are quite a few rich people who do care, want their taxes raised, and want what is the best for everyone. When you make any statement similar to "the rich are blood sucking thieves", I put you into the same category as those who say all Muslims are terrorists.

I checked your list from the sunlight foundation and note the biggest donor on the list is less than 10% of the Koch's intended donations in 2015.

Can I check your source on the Koch contributions? I'm not saying it's wrong, I just think there is more to it. I've followed the Sunlight Foundation for quite some time and I trust their data and analysis. (The Obama Campaign used their data and so did the Tea Party.) The Koch brothers only partially bother me. They seem to be against the police state nonsense

I’ve been entertaining an idea I can’t prove which is that money in campaigns only works up to a point. There is only so much advertising you can do and then people tune out. The Obama campaign was tech savvy and used the Internet. I’m waiting for a campaign that starts on the Internet and succeeds in real life with very little money. It might be far fetched, but I wouldn’t put it in the crazy category.
 
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I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm saying we don't know one way or the other as the data from the time in question is bogus.

How is it bogus?

(In case you still haven't figured it out, simply declaring something to be so doesn't make it so)

I've already explained.

The problem is that in that time period there were huge loopholes in the tax code. Most of them took the form of keeping things from being income in the first place--thus we don't know what their income really was.
 
The response that I have read from the conservative economists like Greg Mankiw, is that the economy has moved toward rewarding education and away from rewarding labor. That this is somehow an unavoidable, organic change in the economy, a change that no one can do anything about.

This is odd because thirty five years ago conservative economists were convinced that government economic policies were determining the split of the nation's income between profits and wages. That we had to change government policies to increase profits and to decrease wages, in order to increase income inequity and to provide more money for investments. The government economic policies were changed and income inequity has increased dramatically but investment in production facilities, real investment in business, has decreased.

What has increased is instability in the financial markets as this money diverted from wages has built one asset bubble after another to only see them collapse, in the stock market, the home mortgage market and the latest one to burst, in oil prices in the derivative commodities market. As the cash rich wealthy chase returns in Wall Street's various zero sum casinos.

Zero sum? You don't seem to understand the basics. The new wealth added by our additional ability to pump more barrels of oil, which the billions in capital investments made possible, is not zero sum.

The oil companies world wide spent nearly 700 billion dollars in the last decade exploring for oil when we already have found more oil in the ground than we can burn without harm. This is not a very good investment.

The stock market and other Wall Street casinos are largely secondary markets that don't provide the capital investment that goes into real capital investment that increases production, that increases productivity or provides innovation. That is what the term secondary markets means. When you profit from an increase in a stock price your profit comes from the person who buys the stock from you, not from the company whose stock it is. Every dollar of profit for one person is a dollar of loss for someone else. Hence, zero sum. But as long as new money is coming in the obvious doesn't have to be faced.

Real capital investment that builds the economy is made from retained corporate earnings or from borrowed funds from corporate bonds rather than from the stock market. Corporations invest in response to demand for their products, not because there is excessive funds available for investment.

The funds that neoliberal economics or supply side economics or Reaganomics provides to the secondary markets is generated by lowering the share of the economy that goes to wages. Which lowers demand and ultimately lowers capital investment, real investment that builds the economy. Instead the money diverted from wages flood the secondary markets building asset bubbles in stocks, commodities and real estate, bubbles that destabilize the secondary financial markets with the result that we saw in 2008.
 
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Almost like some great nonhuman force.
This is odd because thirty five years ago conservative economists were convinced that government economic policies were determining the split of the nation's income between profits and wages. That we had to change government policies to increase profits and to decrease wages, in order to increase income inequity and to provide more money for investments.
Any documentation of that?

Seems to me that the economic elite was using that as a pretext for getting more of the earnings of their businesses.
The government economic policies were changed and income inequity has increased dramatically but investment in production facilities, real investment in business, has decreased.

What has increased is instability in the financial markets as this money diverted from wages has built one asset bubble after another to only see them collapse, in the stock market, the home mortgage market and the latest one to burst, in oil prices in the derivative commodities market. As the cash rich wealthy chase returns in Wall Street's various zero sum casinos.
While those economists and their successors don't seem the least bit bothered by all these unintended consequences of their policies.

I am referring to what is variously called "supply side economics' or "neoliberal economics" or "Reaganomics." I suggest that you Google those if you are not familiar with them.

These were not unintended consequences of those policies. They were the way that the policies worked. The intended aims of intentionally increasing profits by decreasing wages was to make more money available for investment. This didn't happen because the entire theory was based on the fallacy that "supply makes its own demand." This is know as Say's law, although Jean-Baptiste Say apparently didn't believe in it. It is not true, businesses don't invest because the money is available, confident that their act of investment will magically produce the demand to buy the product that the investment produces. Business will only invest if the demand for the product exists.

The short answer is that business believes in the fantasy of Say's law and supply side economics when it produces policies that lower wages and increase profits, but when they look at the real economy to decide whether to invest they become hard headed Keynesians.
 
How is it bogus?

(In case you still haven't figured it out, simply declaring something to be so doesn't make it so)

I've already explained.

The problem is that in that time period there were huge loopholes in the tax code. Most of them took the form of keeping things from being income in the first place--thus we don't know what their income really was.
The loopholes that of which I am aware were basically exclusions from income which meant the income was reported and then excluded. What loopholes do you refer to?
 
That a large gap between a small percentage of super wealthy and the rest of society has existed for long, long time makes it ethically acceptable? We should just be thankful for whatever 'trickles' down?

The gap isn't very large.

Both groups don't go hungry.

A claim that's not supported by the evidence. There is a vast difference the wealth and life styles between the slum dwellers of Calcutta and Wall Street Bankers, for instance.

There are countless examples of the sheer scale of inequity, including the stats that ''the share of the world’s wealth owned by the best-off 1% has increased from 44% in 2009 to 48% in 2014, while the least well-off 80% currently own just 5.5%.''
 
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