The face of Israeli justice

[Togo]

A few points on accuracy here.
The 3 israelies charged with burnining a Palestinian to death were a different family from those who's children were killed. Settlers get paid by the Israeli government anyway. Israel did not demolish the houses, they bombed them from aircraft. What the Israelies bulldozed was a local business (a dairy) employing several hundred Palestinians that had no connection to the attacks from either side.

The attacks took place in an area administered by the Israelies, not by Fatah or Hamas.
Both the IDF and Hamas put military installations in crowded civillian areas.

 

[Arctish]

nm

 

[Jayjay]

What concessions? Israel hasn't conceded an inch of land in West Bank, and the population of the settlements are only growing. The Palestinians, Hamas included, have all but given up fighting in West Bank (few rock throwers here and there notwithstanding) and what has that peace brought them? More settlements!

Concessions can be things other than territory.

For example, removing the buffer zone they had around the border fence. That means a lot more attacks on the fence.

Are you referring to the "border" fence that cuts straight through Palestinian territory? The entire fence shouldn't exist. It's not a concession any more than Hamas saying "we'll only fire a small amount of rockets" is a concession.

Meanwhile, the asshats in Gaza are more interested in their own rocket stockpiles and freeing their own fighters from jail than they are about ending the occupation. Israel should reoccupy Gaza (military occupation only, keeping civilians out by force if necessary) or at least take over the Rafah crossing.

Why?

Egypt has cracked down on the smuggling.

And what good would occupation do? Israel pulled out because being close means more attacks.

If Egypt has cracked down on the smuggling, then why does Israel have to bomb the smuggling tunnels on a regular basis? And how do the Iranian long range missiles come to the country? To me it looks like the Gaza-Egypt border leaks like a sieve.

As for occupation in general, that would let Irael raid houses and arrest people as opposed to bombing from afar, which is much more effective although more expensive as well. But it would pacify Gaza to the extent that West Bank has been pacified.

 

[laughing dog]

Does anyone think that the homes of the 3 Israelis charged with burning a Palestinian to death will be bulldozed by the Israeli gov't in order to provide disincentives for that behavior?

Why would they? Nobody's going to pay them because their kids became martyrs.

Read the part in bold italics.

Comparing the deaths only makes sense if it's a sporting event.

Would you please explain that point of that koan?

Concessions for true peace, yes.

The problem is permanent changes in policy in exchange for a temporary cease fire is a bad thing.

Any concession by anyone always involves the possibility that the other side does not live up to its promises. This situation is replete with examples from all parties. And, a party engages in concessions in the expectation and hope that they are successful and lead to the ultimate goal. In other words, any concession by anyone in this situation is an investment which may or may not pan out. That means that concessions that turn out to be unsuccessful should not mean that concessions are pointless or unproductive.

 

[untermensche]

Both the IDF and Hamas put military installations in crowded civillian areas.

There is a huge difference.

Israel is the oppressor. A extremely powerful nation oppressing an unarmed weak civilian population. Very little Israeli violence is justified.

The Palestinians are the oppressed, and any violence they conduct, in any way, is justified by their oppression. Palestinian violence only becomes unjustified when the oppression ends.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why would they? Nobody's going to pay them because their kids became martyrs.

So if somebody takes up a collection for the families of the accused, you believe Israel will demolish their houses? And that this would be justice?

The point is the martyrs know the money is coming--it can be an incentive for them. Israel is attempt to take away that incentive.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Both the IDF and Hamas put military installations in crowded civillian areas.

There is a huge difference.

Israel is the oppressor. A extremely powerful nation oppressing an unarmed weak civilian population. Very little Israeli violence is justified.

The Palestinians are the oppressed, and any violence they conduct, in any way, is justified by their oppression. Palestinian violence only becomes unjustified when the oppression ends.

I apologize for the derail but I don't know if I'd call Israel an "extremely powerful nation"! According to the link, they are just about 10th in the world:

http://marketbusinessnews.com/most-powerful-countries-world/3447

They are behind Canada. I wouldn't call "Canada" extremely powerful! It's just that Israel has it's back to the wall they have no place to go. They are the most hated people in the world. They have more enemies than anyone. Of course they are overly defensive at times.

 

[untermensche]

It's just that Israel has it's back to the wall they have no place to go.

They want the land that the world considers belonging to the Palestinians.

When they took power in Israel they said they were going to treat the Palestinians like dogs, in the hope they would go away.

They have more than kept their word.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's just that Israel has it's back to the wall they have no place to go.

They want the land that the world considers belonging to the Palestinians.

When they took power in Israel they said they were going to treat the Palestinians like dogs, in the hope they would go away.

They have more than kept their word.

Israel wants Israel and peace. Keeping framing it as them wanting Palestine doesn't make it so.

 

[Jayjay]

They want the land that the world considers belonging to the Palestinians.

When they took power in Israel they said they were going to treat the Palestinians like dogs, in the hope they would go away.

They have more than kept their word.

Israel wants Israel and peace. Keeping framing it as them wanting Palestine doesn't make it so.

The trick here is that when Israel says "Israel" it is referring to Israel proper, plus East Jerusalem, plus whatever settlements it has in West Bank. And when Israel says "Palestine" it means whatever non-contiguous Bantustans are left.

Israel's actions and the statements from its leaders have been pretty consistent that it does not want peace, if it means giving up on their settlements.

 

[Togo]

A mugger wants your wallet and peace. He'll do his best to minimise civilian casualties damage to you in the process. Victims who shout or scream or try to hurt him are so unreasonable.

 

[Arctish]

So if somebody takes up a collection for the families of the accused, you believe Israel will demolish their houses? And that this would be justice?

The point is the martyrs know the money is coming--it can be an incentive for them. Israel is attempt to take away that incentive.

Just say no, Loren. You do not think that the homes of the 3 Israelis charged with burning a Palestinian to death will be bulldozed by the Israeli gov't in order to provide disincentives for that behavior.

 

[Derec]

Just say no, Loren. You do not think that the homes of the 3 Israelis charged with burning a Palestinian to death will be bulldozed by the Israeli gov't in order to provide disincentives for that behavior.

False comparison. Israel is actually prosecuting the suspected perps. Unlike the Palestinian Authority they are not celebrating them and financially rewarding their families.

 

[laughing dog]

Just say no, Loren. You do not think that the homes of the 3 Israelis charged with burning a Palestinian to death will be bulldozed by the Israeli gov't in order to provide disincentives for that behavior.

False comparison. Israel is actually prosecuting the suspected perps. Unlike the Palestinian Authority they are not celebrating them and financially rewarding their families.

The IDF bulldozes homes of people without a trial, so the comparison is valid.

The implicit underlying assumption in yours and Loren's defense here is disincentive work with Palestinian terrorists but not with Israeli terrorists.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is the martyrs know the money is coming--it can be an incentive for them. Israel is attempt to take away that incentive.

Just say no, Loren. You do not think that the homes of the 3 Israelis charged with burning a Palestinian to death will be bulldozed by the Israeli gov't in order to provide disincentives for that behavior.

You're ignoring the fact that the bulldozing is a response to the money that's paid to the families of martyrs.

 

[laughing dog]

Just say no, Loren. You do not think that the homes of the 3 Israelis charged with burning a Palestinian to death will be bulldozed by the Israeli gov't in order to provide disincentives for that behavior.

You're ignoring the fact that the bulldozing is a response to the money that's paid to the families of martyrs.

You ignore the fact that the IDF does not look to see if the house was owned by the family prior to any receipt of money. Really, the logic here is simple. Either bulldozing the house of a terrorist is a disincentive or it isn't. If it is, then Israel should bulldoze the house of any terrrorist, including an Israeli terrorist. If it isn't, then deterrence is not the reason for the destruction.

 

[Arctish]

Just say no, Loren. You do not think that the homes of the 3 Israelis charged with burning a Palestinian to death will be bulldozed by the Israeli gov't in order to provide disincentives for that behavior.

False comparison. Israel is actually prosecuting the suspected perps. Unlike the Palestinian Authority they are not celebrating them and financially rewarding their families.

Please post evidence the PA is celebrating Hamas terrorists and financially rewarding their families, because even though it sounds like bullshit I'm still interested in seeing your sources.

 

[Arctish]

Just say no, Loren. You do not think that the homes of the 3 Israelis charged with burning a Palestinian to death will be bulldozed by the Israeli gov't in order to provide disincentives for that behavior.

You're ignoring the fact that the bulldozing is a response to the money that's paid to the families of martyrs.

You're ignoring the fact the house demolitions have been going on since the founding of Israel. They intensified during the first and second intifadas but there's never been a time in all of Israel's history when it wasn't knocking down Palestinian homes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

False comparison. Israel is actually prosecuting the suspected perps. Unlike the Palestinian Authority they are not celebrating them and financially rewarding their families.

Please post evidence the PA is celebrating Hamas terrorists and financially rewarding their families, because even though it sounds like bullshit I'm still interested in seeing your sources.

You're ignoring the fact that the bulldozing is a response to the money that's paid to the families of martyrs.

You're ignoring the fact the house demolitions have been going on since the founding of Israel. They intensified during the first and second intifadas but there's never been a time in all of Israel's history when it wasn't knocking down Palestinian homes.

Making things up doesn't help. In the 48 to 67 period they faced insurgent attacks from camps in Arab lands, not terrorism. Thus there would have been no demolition of the houses of terrorists because that would require terrorists in the first place. The Arabs only switched to a strategy of terrorism when Israel grew powerful enough to go after the camps.

As for the compensation that you don't think exists: Here's an old source:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/isrl-pa/ISRAELPA1002-06.htm

(And if HRW bashes Israel's enemies you can be pretty sure they're right.) In other words, it's been going on at least 14 years.

And 10 years later I find:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/cash-s...on-per-month-compensating-security-detainees/

(Yeah, it's mostly about those in jail but it also mentions money paid to suicide bomber's families.)

 

[Arctish]

You're ignoring the fact that the bulldozing is a response to the money that's paid to the families of martyrs.

You're ignoring the fact the house demolitions have been going on since the founding of Israel. They intensified during the first and second intifadas but there's never been a time in all of Israel's history when it wasn't knocking down Palestinian homes.

Making things up doesn't help.

You realize I'm going to quote you, right?

In the 48 to 67 period they faced insurgent attacks from camps in Arab lands, not terrorism. Thus there would have been no demolition of the houses of terrorists because that would require terrorists in the first place. The Arabs only switched to a strategy of terrorism when Israel grew powerful enough to go after the camps.

Here's a bit more information:

The military occupation by Israel of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is now in its fourth decade and the litany of human rights abuses that have been committed throughout this occupation are both widely known and well documented. One of the most noticeable and altogether inhumane practices that the occupying army has continuously employed since 1967 is that of demolishing Palestinian houses. Over nine thousand houses have been completely destroyed since the beginning of the occupation....

...Most notoriously, Israel has throughout the occupation implemented a policy whereby the houses of suspected, detained or convicted Palestinians are demolished as a punitive measure for their actual or suspected crimes. This paper will examine the legality of this practice, whereby families are punished by house demolition for the unlawful actions of a single member of that family. These demolitions are ordered by Military Commanders, carried out by the soldiers of the occupying army and have been repeatedly validated by the Israeli judiciary. It will be specifically argued that these demolitions constitute acts of collective punishment, expressly prohibited under international law....

...It is a common and recurring practice in the Occupied Palestinian Territories that the army of the Occupying Power, the Israeli army, demolish or seal the houses of persons who have committed offences or who are suspected of having committed such. In particular, the homes of persons who have carried out suicide bombings within Israel or against Israeli settlers or soldiers, are always demolished in the aftermath of such attacks. This punitive demolition policy also targets persons, and thereby their families, for less serious offences or for suspicion that offences have been committed.

The question put to you and others was whether or not you believed Israel would demolish the homes of the accused Jewish terrorists as a disincentive to other Jewish terrorists. The answer is no, you do not believe Israel will destroy an accused Jewish terrorist's home. Neither do I. I think Israel's home leveling policy is applied along the usual racial, religious lines.

As for the compensation that you don't think exists: Here's an old source:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/isrl-pa/ISRAELPA1002-06.htm

(And if HRW bashes Israel's enemies you can be pretty sure they're right.) In other words, it's been going on at least 14 years.

And 10 years later I find:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/cash-s...on-per-month-compensating-security-detainees/

(Yeah, it's mostly about those in jail but it also mentions money paid to suicide bomber's families.)

I know about the PA granting pensions to imprisoned fighters and paying death benefits to the families of fighters KIA. I was asking for support of the claim that the PA is celebrating the Hamas terrorists who killed the 3 Jewish boys and is making payments to their families. Do you have any?