The Function of Thought

[untermensche]

The environment does not force complexity. Bacteria have not been getting more complex for quite a while.

But when complexity happens by chance and that complexity increases survival chances then that complexity can become more complex by chance. And if that complexity increases survival chances then so on and so on.

 

[DBT]

The environment does not force complexity. Bacteria have not been getting more complex for quite a while.

But when complexity happens by chance and that complexity increases survival chances then that complexity can become more complex by chance. And if that complexity increases survival chances then so on and so on.

The environment includes not only climatic conditions, topography, etc, but the other species within an environment, an interaction of genetics, niche, competition, symbiosis, etc etc.....

The basics:

Conditions for Natural Selection

In summary:

''Any force in the environment that favors or disfavors traits is a selective agent. A force can be biological, like a predator, or physical, like temperature. Over time, populations subjected to different selective agents may become so different that they are no longer able to breed with one another. The biological definition of species is a group of organisms that can successfully breed with each other. Under this definition, when populations can no longer breed with each other, they are considered to be different species.


Natural selection requires variation between individuals.

Mutations and sexual reproduction increase genetic variation in a population.

Natural selection occurs when environmental pressures favor certain traits that are passed on to offspring. ...

Natural selection acts on populations.''

 

[untermensche]

The environment, if it changes, can force change due to changing needs for survival.

But the environment can't force complexity.

Complexity arises randomly. Nothing is forcing it. But complexity can give a survival advantage and when it does the complexity will remain and can be built upon by random changes.

 

[DBT]

Is 'force' the right word?

 

[untermensche]

Force: To compel. To move in a certain direction.

There is no plan to evolution.

Everything that appears is a random accident. A contingency.

If the environment changes then a species, if it is to survive, is sometimes forced to change, forced by the change in the environment to adapt to that new environment or it will die off.

Changing environments are the engine for evolutionary change. And random mutations allow for change.

But complexity is just a random accident. Changing environments only force change, not complexity.

 

[DBT]

Force: To compel. To move in a certain direction.

There is no plan to evolution.

Everything that appears is a random accident. A contingency.

If the environment changes then a species, if it is to survive, is sometimes forced to change, forced by the change in the environment to adapt to that new environment or it will die off.

Changing environments are the engine for evolutionary change. And random mutations allow for change.

But complexity is just a random accident. Changing environments only force change, not complexity.

If the environment 'forces' change, why do you believe that force to change necessarily excludes the emergence or development of complexity?

 

[untermensche]

A change is forced.

Sometimes that change is greater complexity. Sometimes it is less complexity. Sometimes it is about the same complexity.

None of these are forced. If less complexity gives a survival advantage then less complexity will win out.

For primates that survive with their minds more complexity has so far given a survival advantage.

But humans may be a lethal mutation and may end the string of life that has lasted billions of years on Earth.

 

[DBT]

So what is the point to all this? What exactly are you trying to say?

 

[untermensche]

So what is the point to all this? What exactly are you trying to say?

I have said it.

Evolution does not force complexity. Complexity arises randomly. Nothing is making brains get more complex. But when random complexity gives a survival advantage it can remain to be built upon and then even greater complexity can randomly arise.

 

[DBT]

So what is the point to all this? What exactly are you trying to say?

I have said it.

Evolution does not force complexity. Complexity arises randomly. Nothing is making brains get more complex. But when random complexity gives a survival advantage it can remain to be built upon and then even greater complexity can randomly arise.

If complexity emerges because of environmental conditions, it is not random. The conditions have to be right. Evolution is not random.

 

[skepticalbip]

The first part of the evolutionary process is random... mutation. The second part, natural selection, is simply those mutations that provide a benefit are selected for and passed on because they made the critter better able to survive in the particular environment.

 

[untermensche]

So what is the point to all this? What exactly are you trying to say?

I have said it.

Evolution does not force complexity. Complexity arises randomly. Nothing is making brains get more complex. But when random complexity gives a survival advantage it can remain to be built upon and then even greater complexity can randomly arise.

If complexity emerges because of environmental conditions, it is not random. The conditions have to be right. Evolution is not random.

It doesn't emerge because of environmental conditions. Complexity, like all things, emerges randomly.

It can possibly be more successful because of environmental conditions when it randomly emerges and remain to be built upon. That is all.

 

[untermensche]

Natural selection contains within it the understanding that all change occurs due to random mutation.

The ability to survive and reproduce in an environment determines which of those random mutations remain.

 

[DBT]

Natural selection contains within it the understanding that all change occurs due to random mutation.

The ability to survive and reproduce in an environment determines which of those random mutations remain.

Mutations that are maladaptive are weeded out by environmental conditions, the organism dies. Adaptive traits are passed on through generations. That is not a random process.

 

[DBT]

If complexity emerges because of environmental conditions, it is not random. The conditions have to be right. Evolution is not random.

It doesn't emerge because of environmental conditions. Complexity, like all things, emerges randomly.

It can possibly be more successful because of environmental conditions when it randomly emerges and remain to be built upon. That is all.

Complexity emerged because the conditions were right. The conditions were right because all the elements came together in that place and time. The elements came together in that place and time because matter/energy interactions, star/solar system formation brought them together in that time and place, a chaotic but deterministic process beginning with the BB.

 

[untermensche]

Natural selection contains within it the understanding that all change occurs due to random mutation.

The ability to survive and reproduce in an environment determines which of those random mutations remain.

Mutations that are maladaptive are weeded out by environmental conditions, the organism dies. Adaptive traits are passed on through generations. That is not a random process.

Yes. That is what I just said.

The ability to survive within an environment determines which mutations remain and therefore also which do not.

Change is random. Reproduction is a random process. It is all random. Start over and totally different animals will emerge.

 

[untermensche]

If complexity emerges because of environmental conditions, it is not random. The conditions have to be right. Evolution is not random.

It doesn't emerge because of environmental conditions. Complexity, like all things, emerges randomly.

It can possibly be more successful because of environmental conditions when it randomly emerges and remain to be built upon. That is all.

Complexity emerged because the conditions were right. The conditions were right because all the elements came together in that place and time. The elements came together in that place and time because matter/energy interactions, star/solar system formation brought them together in that time and place, a chaotic but deterministic process beginning with the BB.

Complexity can arise at any time randomly. And it can randomly help an organism survive within a random environment.

It is all totally random.

 

[untermensche]

What is not random is humans deciding what shape of dog they want and cross breeding different shapes to get it.

The opposite of random change is planned change.

No change in evolution is a planned change. Nothing is planned. All is a random contingency.

No god planned for humans to emerge.

 

[DBT]

Complexity emerged because the conditions were right. The conditions were right because all the elements came together in that place and time. The elements came together in that place and time because matter/energy interactions, star/solar system formation brought them together in that time and place, a chaotic but deterministic process beginning with the BB.

Complexity can arise at any time randomly. And it can randomly help an organism survive within a random environment.

It is all totally random.

Not because you claim it is. You are stating it's random. You need to show why the world, solar system formation, evolution, life, genetics, etc is in fact random. You need to do more than just declare it to be so.

 

[Treedbear]

If conditions are conducive to complexity it will arise. Just like conditions for increasing size led to very large dinosaurs. The initial condition of high oxygen levels in the atmosphere led to some dinosaurs getting larger. That much would have occurred randomly. Random genetic mutations leading to increased size that wasn't advantageous prior to the increase in oxygen levels. But when some dinosaurs got larger it created the additional conditions in which carnivorous dinosaurs had to be larger in order to prey on the larger herbivorous dinosaurs. That altered the conditions leading to even larger herbivors. Size became the positive feedback or driving factor. The same happened with brain complexity, except I think there was probably a threshold involved at which point it became an advantage. If, as I suggested earlier, the precursor of the brain evolved as the central node in a system of otherwise independent stimulus-response networks, then some advantage might have resulted from the new possibility of coordinating all of those functions. That would be the beginning of a complex network. But in this case there are no competing systems that would drive further increases in complexity. There's no T-Rex providing positive feedback. Or in pandemic terms, there's no vector. In the real world there might be a whole ranch of possible vectors. We call that an ecosystem. It involves an intricate dynamic equilibrium of competing systems. So what I'm proposing is that at some point (through randomly produced but marginally advantageous mutations) a limit is encountered where the added complexity has resulted in brains that are large enough and dense enough that heat management becomes the limiting factor. The T-Rex if you will. In order for the brain to be any larger it must also evolve the feedback systems that control energy allotment and heat generation. Hence the drive to maximize efficiency through positive and negative feedback systems. This I believe is the basis of thought. Thought (both conscious and unconscious) is the brain continuously working to minimize conflict and contention between its various processes, such as fight-vs-flight and eat dessert-vs-lose weight, as well as that which leads to any paradigm shift as occurring in any intellectual endeavor.