The God Zoo

[ideologyhunter]

The way our friend keeps repeating his Obama quote reminds me of a fox terrier defending a butcher bone. It's his prize "Gotcha" moment, his Exhibit A. Somehow, if Obama called on America to practice genocide, then -- what? It's okay for God to do it? Or -- more likely -- we (presumably) godless liberals are huge hypocrites? But, again, as has been pointed out, the Obama quote is boiler-plate language and political posturing that's at least as old as the Cold War. Calling for the destruction of the Caliphate is not, never has been, an endorsement of genocide. History is full of examples of states and movements and regimes that were destroyed without wars of extermination.
To put it as nicely as I can, he's not reading English texts the same way I do. (The Trump White House is hiring, I understand.)

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Look, it’s all perfectly clear. Lion thinks Obama is a god. I have no problem with that.

 

[Lion IRC]

We already covered this.
Yes, God can stop us doing anything.

But you don't want God to stop you from doing whatever you want.

And you want God to turn a blind eye to abortion, and adultery and blasphemy and sodomy and greed - but only when it suits you.

When Barack Obama acts to "utterly destroy" the Canaanites ISIS/Alqaeda, thats OK. But it's not OK for God to hasten the end of a war with extreme prejudice.

But you, yourself said that God intervenes in human affairs, so it's only matter of degree of intervention. Why intervene here, but not there? Why prevent one rape but let another happen?

For the same reason God doesn't proactively intervene to prevent every
single instance of... [insert your subjective bad stuff concept here.]

 

[DBT]

We already covered this.
Yes, God can stop us doing anything.

But you don't want God to stop you from doing whatever you want.

And you want God to turn a blind eye to abortion, and adultery and blasphemy and sodomy and greed - but only when it suits you.

When Barack Obama acts to "utterly destroy" the Canaanites ISIS/Alqaeda, thats OK. But it's not OK for God to hasten the end of a war with extreme prejudice.

But you, yourself said that God intervenes in human affairs, so it's only matter of degree of intervention. Why intervene here, but not there? Why prevent one rape but let another happen?

For the same reason God doesn't proactively intervene to prevent every
single instance of... [insert your subjective bad stuff concept here.]

That is essentially the problem of Evil, the question of why God allows evil. But it's worse than that when it comes to the bible god because we are told that god actively creates evil and the evildoer for the day of Evil.

Hinduism has no such problem because there is no duality, no separation between the manifestor of the universe, Brahman, its objects and events.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

For the same reason God doesn't proactively intervene to prevent every
single instance of... [insert your subjective bad stuff concept here.]

That is essentially the problem of Evil, the question of why God allows evil. But it's worse than that when it comes to the bible god because we are told that god actively creates evil and the evildoer for the day of Evil.

Hinduism has no such problem because there is no duality, no separation between the manifestor of the universe, Brahman, its objects and events.

So if I'm a cop and I let murderers, thieves and rapists do their thing, and I only stop one occasionally, that means I'm as dumb as a god.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Well, but as a cop, did you go buck wild on the criminal element and consign them to constant profiling all because some delusional woman on meth said a snake told her to feed her boyfriend a piece of magic fruit? Once a perp, always a perp. Let them whack each other. Or accept sentence reduction with Magic Parole (TM). Details available on Pat Robertson's website. I believe I'm starting to babble here.

 

[DBT]

Or maybe a part time God. A ten hour working week, then goof off....fishing, gym, golf.....someone getting killed, bad luck.

 

[Learner]

For the same reason God doesn't proactively intervene to prevent every
single instance of... [insert your subjective bad stuff concept here.]

That is essentially the problem of Evil, the question of why God allows evil. But it's worse than that when it comes to the bible god because we are told that god actively creates evil and the evildoer for the day of Evil.

Repeating many times the above, doesn't make your understanding of the verse, the true intention by the authors.

Since we seem to "know" better than the written scripture of some "imaginary" creator. Who then allows evil to manifest?

After all... we seem to know what our own ideal peaceful world would be like for many of us (which will vary), especially without any God. Although... the problem of evil will still remain! Due to a variety of individual personal wants,I should guess.

One could wonder. Is it therefore a part of the human survival bio-mechanisms? Survival of the fittest...natural selection? Ghengis and Hitler maybe correctly acting on their natural given right to be top dawg.

Hinduism has no such problem because there is no duality, no separation between the manifestor of the universe, Brahman, its objects and events.

Indeed... the variable varieties gives far more tolerance to allow things, than the biblical God.

 

[DBT]

Repeating many times the above, doesn't make your understanding of the verse, the true intention by the authors.

I'd say that its Christians like you that don't understand the meaning or significance of the verses. Judaism accepts what they clearly say and mean. The verses clearly state what they mean and no amount of Christian apologetics can transform what the verses say and mean.


The Bible and violence

''The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain narratives, poetry, and instruction describing, recording, encouraging, commanding, condemning, rewarding, punishing and regulating violent actions by God, individuals, groups, governments, and nation-states. Among the violent acts included are war, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, murder, rape, and criminal punishment.[1]:Introduction The texts have a history of interpretation within the Abrahamic religions and Western culture that includes justification and opposition to acts of violence.[2]

Sociologists Frank Robert Chalk and Kurt Jonassohn question "the applicability of the term [genocide] to earlier periods of history, and the judgmental and moral loadings that have become associated with it."[149] Since most societies of the past endured and practiced genocide, it was accepted as "being in the nature of life" because of the "coarseness and brutality" of life.[149]:27 Chalk and Jonassohn say the Old Testament contains cases they would consider genocide (if they were factual) because of women and children being killed even though it was war and casualties in war are excluded from the definition of genocide. They also say: "The evidence for genocide in antiquity is circumstantial, inferential, and ambiguous, and it comes to us exclusively from the perpetrators."

Since we seem to "know" better than the written scripture of some "imaginary" creator. Who then allows evil to manifest?

We are talking about what is written in the bible. Which doesn't mean that its God has to be an actual God, only a matter of the principles involved with the claims being made.

 

[Learner]

I'd say that its Christians like you that don't understand the meaning or significance of the verses. Judaism accepts what they clearly say and mean. The verses clearly state what they mean and no amount of Christian apologetics can transform what the verses say and mean.

And the former pharisee like Paul and the other Christians who were formerly Jews?

The Bible and violence

''The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain narratives, poetry, and instruction describing, recording, encouraging, commanding, condemning, rewarding, punishing and regulating violent actions by God, individuals, groups, governments, and nation-states. Among the violent acts included are war, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, murder, rape, and criminal punishment.[1]:Introduction The texts have a history of interpretation within the Abrahamic religions and Western culture that includes justification and opposition to acts of violence.[2]

Sociologists Frank Robert Chalk and Kurt Jonassohn question "the applicability of the term [genocide] to earlier periods of history, and the judgmental and moral loadings that have become associated with it."[149] Since most societies of the past endured and practiced genocide, it was accepted as "being in the nature of life" because of the "coarseness and brutality" of life.[149]:27 Chalk and Jonassohn say the Old Testament contains cases they would consider genocide (if they were factual) because of women and children being killed even though it was war and casualties in war are excluded from the definition of genocide. They also say: "The evidence for genocide in antiquity is circumstantial, inferential, and ambiguous, and it comes to us exclusively from the perpetrators."

Aren't these sociologists not also transforming the Jews understanding of the verses?

We are talking about what is written in the bible. Which doesn't mean that its God has to be an actual God, only a matter of the principles involved with the claims being made.

It would matter because then, evil is natural and not necessrarily wrong unless the claims, the principles for example says... God tells you that it is wrong.

 

[DBT]

And the former pharisee like Paul and the other Christians who were formerly Jews?

I was talking about those who deny what the verses say about God creating evil....which includes pointing out the contradiction between Paul's God of Love and the OT tyrannical god of war.

Aren't these sociologists not also transforming the Jews understanding of the verses?

The verses say what they say. Interpretation should not alter what they say and mean into the opposite of what they say and mean.....if a verse tells us that god creates the evildoer for the day of evil, is this to be interpreted to mean 'god does not create the evildoer or the day of evil?'

How is it to be interpreted?

It would matter because then, evil is natural and not necessrarily wrong unless the claims, the principles for example says... God tells you that it is wrong.

If we are told that God orders genocide and rape where it would not have otherwise happened, then evil is not natural, it is ordered by god.

 

[Learner]

I was talking about those who deny what the verses say about God creating evil....which includes pointing out the contradiction between Paul's God of Love and the OT tyrannical god of war.

Who is denying what's written down? Those would include Paul and former Jews would it not? What does IT say about the verses ... God "created" evil?

Where does it say God creates evil, as showing to be a main attribute, to be consistant throughout, that doesn't have any of the preceeding 'God makes Peace' followed by 'God "creates" evil?' Which would otherwise as intended, show those particular verses to demonstrate two related opposing states and conditions.

The verses say what they say. Interpretation should not alter what they say and mean into the opposite of what they say and mean.....if a verse tells us that god creates the evildoer for the day of evil, is this to be interpreted to mean 'god does not create the evildoer or the day of evil?'

How is it to be interpreted?

What they say and mean. If they contradict then they are not saying anything at all unless... your "interpretation" means God is both Good and Evil. Is that what it seems to say to you?

If there's a contradiction then it must mean there could be some context missing. The word evil in Hebrew has several meanings ...closely interchangeble variations, thats only WITHIN just ONE word. Choosing one to make sense in order to get some context clarity... to get what the authors may have intended to mean.

Either that or the authors just didn't notice the contradiction and weren't really that bothered about really trying to convert people.

If we are told that God orders genocide and rape where it would not have otherwise happened, then evil is not natural, it is ordered by god.

We are told God orders Israelites to fight and defend themselves, ONLY with nations that want to war with them.

 

[DBT]

Who is denying what's written down? Those would include Paul and former Jews would it not? What does IT say about the verses ... God "created" evil?

Where does it say God creates evil, as showing to be a main attribute, to be consistant throughout, that doesn't have any of the preceeding 'God makes Peace' followed by 'God "creates" evil?' Which would otherwise as intended, show those particular verses to demonstrate two related opposing states and conditions.

I addressed the point of word translation earlier in the thread. The word רָע (rah) is used and 'rah' is best translated as 'evil' rather than 'disaster' or 'calamity.'


Quote;
''Understandably, the New International Version translators saw fit to alter the prophet’s words by rendering the offensive Hebrew word רָע (rah) as “disaster” instead of correctly translating it as “bad” or “evil.” The New International Version Bible therefore mistranslates Isaiah 45:7 to read:

“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.”

The word “disaster” inserted by the New International Version is misleading and purposely ambiguous so that the uninformed reader could conclude that this word refers to natural disasters, such as typhoons, earthquakes and hurricanes. This dubious translation was deliberately forged to conceal the prophet’s original message. As mentioned above, the King James Version correctly translates this verse, and renders the Hebrew word רָע (rah) as “evil.”

And of course, within the context of many verses that describe God's actions, orders and attitude, God creating evil is the correct interpretation.

"And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? Or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?" Exodus 4:11

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.'' Proverbs 16:4

We are told God orders Israelites to fight and defend themselves, ONLY with nations that want to war with them.

Not so, the issue goes way beyond fight and defend.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

After all... we seem to know what our own ideal peaceful world would be like for many of us (which will vary), especially without any God. Although... the problem of evil will still remain! Due to a variety of individual personal wants,I should guess.

That's warped religious thinking, that because something isn't perfect - whatever that is other than a bunch of wooey oooey religious feely goody - it's evil. How exactly does a human brain become so broken.

/rhetorical

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Well, but as a cop, did you go buck wild on the criminal element and consign them to constant profiling all because some delusional woman on meth said a snake told her to feed her boyfriend a piece of magic fruit? Once a perp, always a perp. Let them whack each other. Or accept sentence reduction with Magic Parole (TM). Details available on Pat Robertson's website. I believe I'm starting to babble here.

Anytime one mentions Pat Robertson, babble is expected.

I'd say Robertson and Lion are manifesting a rather sinister behavior in which suffering and torment and revenge is not only tolerated but expected and accepted and demanded. Subconsciously they are attracted to it and religion is the license that makes it okay. How else does one explain a person making excuses for their god's many instances either personally carrying out or commanding instances of its final solution? I don't know how else to rationally explain it except to take it at face value, that it's something they like.

 

[Lion IRC]

I was talking about those who deny what the verses say about God creating evil....which includes pointing out the contradiction between Paul's God of Love and the OT tyrannical god of war.

Paul's God of love.
"...for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction..."
"God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die..."
"...the wrath of God is coming."
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men..."
"God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power..."

The Old Testament God of War
"Be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God..."

...OH NO WAIT.
My bad. That's still Paul's God of love. (Ephesians)

 

[ideologyhunter]

Can we just acknowledge that God, like the plants and animals, EVOLVED?

 

[DBT]

I was talking about those who deny what the verses say about God creating evil....which includes pointing out the contradiction between Paul's God of Love and the OT tyrannical god of war.

Paul's God of love.
"...for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction..."
"God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die..."
"...the wrath of God is coming."
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men..."
"God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power..."

The Old Testament God of War
"Be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God..."

...OH NO WAIT.
My bad. That's still Paul's God of love. (Ephesians)

Paul contradicted himself on more than one occasion. The descriptions of a God of Love is incompatible with pretty much the rest of it, a god of war, vindictive, vengeful, violent and intolerant.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I was talking about those who deny what the verses say about God creating evil....which includes pointing out the contradiction between Paul's God of Love and the OT tyrannical god of war.

Paul's God of love.
"...for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction..."
"God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die..."
"...the wrath of God is coming."
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men..."
"God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power..."

The Old Testament God of War
"Be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God..."

...OH NO WAIT.
My bad. That's still Paul's God of love. (Ephesians)

Paul contradicted himself on more than one occasion. The descriptions of a God of Love is incompatible with pretty much the rest of it, a god of war, vindictive, vengeful, violent and intolerant.

Adolph Hitler liked dogs and is seen in many instances being very nice to children. The christian god is just like Adolph Hitler.

 

[ideologyhunter]

With a bigger per capita death toll.