The God Zoo

[Cheerful Charlie]

Put His Spirit In Us

Texts that demonstrate free will as per Plantinga is not an absolute. The free will defense is based on a
straw man, that God must give us free will even if that will causes evil.


----------------------

His Spirit in you .... requires you to choose to be a believer FIRST!

You did not read my list carefully. God does NOT give a choice to those he changes, puts his spirit into. And my list of three choices god has when he designs us and creates us still stands. Free will is impossible. Free will is constrained by our moral nature, created by God, if God exists and created us, which is religious dogma among all major religions. Taking the basic claims of Christianity as a starting point and following them out to the logical conclusion of such claims results in a Universe that has no free will and is not what we would expect a truly wise, all powerful and totally good god would create.

"Choose to be a believer first" is utter bullshit. God allegedly choose the elect and non-elect. God, the great potter, chooses who he will hate and who he will love. And more. Christian theology from Paul is insane. and back to my God the creator and essentially omniscient God. God's choice of an initial starting state of creation decides who will be a believer and who will not. All moral evil is directly God's choice and there fore fault.

 

[DBT]

The bible clearly states satan is responsible for evil, that's how it reads. As for Passover - that was the very LAST of the ten plagues after: blood, frogs, lice, flies, pestilence, boils, hail, locusts, darkness, and then finally the killing of first born. God with His patience gave pharaoh MANY chances to let God's people go... but pharaoh kept on refusing to see God as more powerful and unfortunately let his people suffer, all because of his pride.

New testament theology blames Satan. The OT states that God creates evil.

Judaism has a different view on the nature and role of Satan, an angel of God who is at all times subservient to God, performing the role he was created for, eg, the book of Job.

 

[Learner]

Put His Spirit In Us

Texts that demonstrate free will as per Plantinga is not an absolute. The free will defense is based on a
straw man, that God must give us free will even if that will causes evil.


----------------------

His Spirit in you .... requires you to choose to be a believer FIRST!

You did not read my list carefully. God does NOT give a choice to those he changes, puts his spirit into. And my list of three choices god has when he designs us and creates us still stands. Free will is impossible.

I wasn't in the mood tbh (I was tired then) to go through the whole list and highlight relating verses to get the contexts for each (just as I had, to a similar argument).

Free will is constrained by our moral nature, created by God, if God exists and created us, which is religious dogma among all major religions. Taking the basic claims of Christianity as a starting point and following them out to the logical conclusion of such claims results in a Universe that has no free will and is not what we would expect a truly wise, all powerful and totally good god would create.

Well yes, if you mean moral-nature determines what we do with our free will e.g. being able to abstain, refrain, having self control from doing strange and harmful things to others, as I see it yes.

Perhaps its rather too simple a concept as my limited understanding allows and may "require" a little over-philosophying (un-neccessary over-complex explanations) to be on par with those thinking-too-hard philosophers debating free will.

"Choose to be a believer first" is utter bullshit. God allegedly choose the elect and non-elect. God, the great potter, chooses who he will hate and who he will love. And more. Christian theology from Paul is insane. and back to my God the creator and essentially omniscient God. God's choice of an initial starting state of creation decides who will be a believer and who will not. All moral evil is directly God's choice and there fore fault.

An intriguing way one uses words for context. Theists by now are getting used to the variants.

I'll simply to say ... to how you read it (the bible). Walking on the narrow path, commandments, covenants,and warnings of disasterous perils, don't exist in your version of the bible example.

 

[remez]

The bible clearly states that God is responsible for evil in the world. As for passover, killing the innocent is neither fair or just.

Cheap sound bite.
So please
Make your case.
As stated your spin seems to fall grossly short of the full theological understanding.

 

[remez]

Morality = the rules of group living. Pure and simple. Requires no god whatsoever. Requires a minimum of two people sharing space. (Requires no holy book that tells you the skygod has often commanded genocide and allows you a three-day pass on beating your slaves to death.)

No it is more like...............

Morality = the rules of group living. Pure and simple.

…………… purely simple.

Requires no god whatsoever.

I agree if you are referring to subjective morality. I was referring to objective morality.

Requires a minimum of two people sharing space.

You seem to be conflating civility and morality.

(Requires no holy book that tells you the skygod has often commanded genocide and allows you a three-day pass on beating your slaves to death.)

Spin that lacks understanding?

You guys complain when God doesn’t stop evil and then hold it against him when he does. Choose one if you must. Stop being so emotional and put forth an intelligent case for your drive by duds.

 

[remez]

Put His Spirit In Us

Texts that demonstrate free will as per Plantinga is not an absolute. The free will defense is based on a
straw man, that God must give us free will even if that will causes evil.

Isaiah 36:26-8
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony
heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments,
and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your
God.

Make your case that that text speaks against freewill. The context clearly assumes freewill. But again you weren’t looking at the context. You were cherry picking again. So please teach me how this text (in its context) does not assume freewill?
And….

The free will defense is based on a straw man, that God must give us free will even if that will causes evil.

If that is the theology …..that we are made in his image, to have freewill. How is it you can call that a straw man?

You may not agree with the theology but that doesn’t make it a straw man. Your issue is that you want to eliminate freewill from the theology to make your case that God and evil cannot coexist. Since evil therefore no God. But if the only way you can do that is arbitrary claim that theology does not include freewill. Then THAT is your straw man of theology.

So if you want to rescue your logical problem of evil you must make your case that the theology of freewill and the image of God is incorrect. You can’t just arbitrarily declare freewill is impossible in theology. Your cherry picking of versus doesn’t do that either. For if you examined the context of your cherry picking there is no way you can make the case that freewill is incompatible with theology. But by all means give it your best shot.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

God, creation of all and Omniscience

Definition of God held by many theists and theologians.
1. God created everything.
2. God is perfectly, morally good.
3. God is essentially omniscient, and knows the future in all it's details.

A. If God decides to create a universe, God, being perfectly omniscient (See 2.) will know how all future
events will occur, depending on what initial starting condition God chooses to use in creating that Universe.
B. Therefore everything happens because of God's choice.
C. Thus all moral evil is created by God, knowingly and purposefully.
D. Therefore God causes all moral evil and is evil.
E. No sentient being in God's created Universe has free will.
F. If John is created evil and then is punished by God with eternal torment in hell, this makes no sense.
God has no common sense.
G. God then is not good, merciful, compassionate, just or fair as specifically claimed by the Bible, OT, NT,
or Quran et al.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Simple God And Evil

God is defined by Christian theologians as being simple. That is, God is not composed
of parts. God's substance, aseity (being) and essences are all one an the same. All God's substance/essences
are necessary, they could not be other than what they are. Simplicity was developed as an argument to avoid
having to admit that there are metaphysical principles out side and beyond God's control that somehow create
God and give him the many attributes theologians claim God has. The simplicty of God dogma is among the
oldest dogmas of Christianity, that can be found in the writings of Clement of Alexandria and Iraeneus of
Lyons.

St Augustine, working from ideas that came from Greek philosophers and culminated with the Enneades of
Plotinus adopted simplicity and that has become a dogma of most historic Western Christian sects. Rene
Descartes took that concept to it's logical conclusion.

Rene Descartes - Letter to Marin Mersenne, April 15, 1640

However, in my treatise on physics I shall discuss a number of
metaphysical topics and especially the following. The mathematical truths
which you call eternal have been laid down by God and depend on him
entirely no less than the rest of his creatures. Indeed to say that these truths
are independent of God is to talk of him as if he were Jupiter or Saturn and
to subject him to the Styx and the Fates. Please do not hesitate to assert and
proclaim everywhere that it is God who has laid down these laws in nature
just as a king lays down laws in his kingdom.

God thus has the essence of perfect moral goodness. God creates everything including man, and the nature of man. God is said to have a good nature and free will, God freely chooses to never do moral evil. If God wanted to eliminate all moral evil, God could give man a god-like good moral nature and a god-like free will that always chooses to do moral good. A truly good God would do that to achieve good. Since God makes all the rules, all the metaphysical necessities of the Universe, there is nothing that can prevent God from doing this, no hidden reasons god cannot do this, all theological objections are dead on arrival and not viable.

We do not live in a Universe where a perfect, simply, morally perfect God exists. If we drop the idea of
simplicity of God (and some theologians do), we establish naturalism in all it's glory. There is a realm of
metaphysical necessities, rules and laws that do not depend on God and cannot be controlled by God. reality
is a creation of this Godless realm of metaphysical necessities, without will or intelligence rules and God is
at best, an afterthought who does nothing useful.

Moral evil exists because the simple God of Christianity as taken to it's logical conclusion by Descartes does
not.

 

[DBT]

The bible clearly states that God is responsible for evil in the world. As for passover, killing the innocent is neither fair or just.

Cheap sound bite.
So please
Make your case.
As stated your spin seems to fall grossly short of the full theological understanding.

It's neither a cheap sound bite or a spin. I am merely pointing out what the bible says about God and evil: that God creates both good and evil, that if there is evil or strife in the world, God is responsible. I'm sure you know the verses.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Isaiah 45:7
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

 

[ideologyhunter]

This thread has not only become a spiraling rabbit hole of a derail, it has demonstrated pretty clearly how unproductive this kind of "dialogue" is. I'll say this about our visiting theist: he knows the rules of his faith world well enough to have constructed a self-sustaining position -- and I wish him well. To me, the rules are imaginary rules and the faith world is an imaginary world. None of us is likely to bridge the gaps that exist between believers and nonbelievers in a format like this. It's a waste of keyboarding. (This is why, if I see a Trump 2020 sticker on your car, I'll ask you about the weather.)

 

[DBT]

Yet people participate, which suggests that there is still some sort of attraction, reward or purpose to be found. Some still believe in the gods, they make claims, which prompts others to question their claims.....and around it goes.

 

[remez]

God, creation of all and Omniscience

Definition of God held by many theists and theologians.
1. God created everything.
2. God is perfectly, morally good.
3. God is essentially omniscient, and knows the future in all it's details.

A. If God decides to create a universe, God, being perfectly omniscient (See 2.) will know how all future
events will occur, depending on what initial starting condition God chooses to use in creating that Universe.
B. Therefore everything happens because of God's choice.
C. Thus all moral evil is created by God, knowingly and purposefully.
D. Therefore God causes all moral evil and is evil.
E. No sentient being in God's created Universe has free will.
F. If John is created evil and then is punished by God with eternal torment in hell, this makes no sense.
God has no common sense.
G. God then is not good, merciful, compassionate, just or fair as specifically claimed by the Bible, OT, NT,
or Quran et al.

Thank you for making your case.
Now we have something to discuss.
I left your original post above to be viewed as a whole and parsed it below.

Definition of God held by many theists and theologians.
1. God created everything.
2. God is perfectly, morally good.
3. God is essentially omniscient, and knows the future in all it's details.

2 and 3 on the surface are fine, but I sense some further clarifications might be on the horizon due to fact that those are big concepts. 1 has an important correction. He didn’t create himself.

A. If God decides to create a universe, God, being perfectly omniscient (See 2.) will know how all future
events will occur, depending on what initial starting condition God chooses to use in creating that Universe.

1. That part of your statement you wrote is reasonable but, it needs to be added that theologically…. Man as part of that creation was created (initial condition) in God’s image with a freewill for the purpose to be in a loving relationship with him. Now I understand you are trying to make a case that won’t work out, but that is the theology.

2. Small but important. “If” God created. We are discussing the account that he “did” create.

3. By way of clarification…I think you meant (see 3) or were you trying to infer something I don’t see?

B. Therefore everything happens because of God's choice.

Theologically to be specific….everything happens with God’s knowledge. But God is sovereign. Meaning he is in control.

C. Thus all moral evil is created by God, knowingly and purposefully.

1. Evil is not a thing that is created. Evil is a privation of good. That is not theological it is a matter of definition and understanding. Like darkness is a privation of light. Ponder the significance of that. Thus moral evil is a description of the absence of moral good. It inherently infers freewill.

2. Merely knowing what someone will do in no way causally constrains someone to do it.

Thus this is where your argument fails to understand the theology here. You are reasoning that knowledge of events means that God caused the events which is not reasonable.
Ex.
I’m truly a sports nut. If I can’t watch a game I will set my DVR to record the game. Now as sometimes happens, to my great annoyance, someone will tell me the score of the game before I watch the game. And at that point I’ll allow them to enthusiastically share some of the details. So now when I watch the game with foreknowledge of what happened; am I causing those players to do what they did.
Knowledge is not causation. Remember God has all knowledge.

No doubt you will now attempt to recall biblical events of where God’s sovereignty actualized certain events like hardening of hearts etc. Actualizing is not causation and thus freewill remains. Thus in there I gave you some hints (remez) of how theology redresses those concerns, should you head in that direction?

D. Therefore God causes all moral evil and is evil.
E. No sentient being in God's created Universe has free will.

Since C fails these D and E are unsupported.

F. If John is created evil and then is punished by God with eternal torment in hell, this makes no sense.
God has no common sense.

If that were the case I would certainly agree. But F is not the case.

G. God then is not good, merciful, compassionate, just or fair as specifically claimed by the Bible, OT, NT,
or Quran et al.

Fails bc F is not the case.

 

[remez]

Simple God And Evil

God is defined by Christian theologians as being simple. That is, God is not composed
of parts. God's substance, aseity (being) and essences are all one an the same. All God's substance/essences
are necessary, they could not be other than what they are. Simplicity was developed as an argument to avoid
having to admit that there are metaphysical principles out side and beyond God's control that somehow create
God and give him the many attributes theologians claim God has. The simplicty of God dogma is among the
oldest dogmas of Christianity, that can be found in the writings of Clement of Alexandria and Iraeneus of
Lyons.

St Augustine, working from ideas that came from Greek philosophers and culminated with the Enneades of
Plotinus adopted simplicity and that has become a dogma of most historic Western Christian sects. Rene
Descartes took that concept to it's logical conclusion.

Rene Descartes - Letter to Marin Mersenne, April 15, 1640

However, in my treatise on physics I shall discuss a number of
metaphysical topics and especially the following. The mathematical truths
which you call eternal have been laid down by God and depend on him
entirely no less than the rest of his creatures. Indeed to say that these truths
are independent of God is to talk of him as if he were Jupiter or Saturn and
to subject him to the Styx and the Fates. Please do not hesitate to assert and
proclaim everywhere that it is God who has laid down these laws in nature
just as a king lays down laws in his kingdom.

God thus has the essence of perfect moral goodness. God creates everything including man, and the nature of man. God is said to have a good nature and free will, God freely chooses to never do moral evil. If God wanted to eliminate all moral evil, God could give man a god-like good moral nature and a god-like free will that always chooses to do moral good. A truly good God would do that to achieve good. Since God makes all the rules, all the metaphysical necessities of the Universe, there is nothing that can prevent God from doing this, no hidden reasons god cannot do this, all theological objections are dead on arrival and not viable.

We do not live in a Universe where a perfect, simply, morally perfect God exists. If we drop the idea of
simplicity of God (and some theologians do), we establish naturalism in all it's glory. There is a realm of
metaphysical necessities, rules and laws that do not depend on God and cannot be controlled by God. reality
is a creation of this Godless realm of metaphysical necessities, without will or intelligence rules and God is
at best, an afterthought who does nothing useful.

Moral evil exists because the simple God of Christianity as taken to it's logical conclusion by Descartes does
not.

I’m certainly ready to address the doctrine of simplicity. But your post was confusing. You reference Descartes letter. I’m unfamiliar with this letter. You didn’t quote or link it. So I’m not sure where the letter ends and your commentary begins. Could you simply put the letter in quotes so that I can redress it properly?

 

[remez]

The bible clearly states that God is responsible for evil in the world. As for passover, killing the innocent is neither fair or just.

Cheap sound bite.
So please
Make your case.
As stated your spin seems to fall grossly short of the full theological understanding.

It's neither a cheap sound bite or a spin. I am merely pointing out what the bible says about God and evil: that God creates both good and evil, that if there is evil or strife in the world, God is responsible. I'm sure you know the verses.

You are suggesting a cherry picking approach. Which one do you feel supports your spin? For example you must know why the Isaiah 45:7 fails you here. All verses need to be examined in there context. So again your drive by spin challenges nothing without presenting a case for what you are reasoning.

 

[remez]

This thread has not only become a spiraling rabbit hole of a derail, it has demonstrated pretty clearly how unproductive this kind of "dialogue" is. I'll say this about our visiting theist: he knows the rules of his faith world well enough to have constructed a self-sustaining position -- and I wish him well. To me, the rules are imaginary rules and the faith world is an imaginary world. None of us is likely to bridge the gaps that exist between believers and nonbelievers in a format like this. It's a waste of keyboarding. (This is why, if I see a Trump 2020 sticker on your car, I'll ask you about the weather.)

I enjoy the challenge and opportunity to defend Christianity.
And
I have learned a lot from you folks.
The examined life is not worth living.

 

[DBT]

It's neither a cheap sound bite or a spin. I am merely pointing out what the bible says about God and evil: that God creates both good and evil, that if there is evil or strife in the world, God is responsible. I'm sure you know the verses.

You are suggesting a cherry picking approach. Which one do you feel supports your spin? For example you must know why the Isaiah 45:7 fails you here. All verses need to be examined in there context. So again your drive by spin challenges nothing without presenting a case for what you are reasoning.

There is no cherry picking.

There is no spin.

Context changes nothing.

In fact the overall context of the verses that state that God creates evil supports the premise that God creates evil for His own purposes.

If there are verses that clearly state that God not only creates evil and stirs up trouble but creates the evildoer for 'the day of evil' - which there are - what possible context could change what the verses into something they don't say....something completely opposite?

Sorry but you have no case to argue. The bible says what it says and there is no changing what it says.

 

[Learner]

The bible clearly states that God is responsible for evil in the world. As for passover, killing the innocent is neither fair or just.

Cheap sound bite.
So please
Make your case.
As stated your spin seems to fall grossly short of the full theological understanding.

It's neither a cheap sound bite or a spin. I am merely pointing out what the bible says about God and evil: that God creates both good and evil, that if there is evil or strife in the world, God is responsible. I'm sure you know the verses.

What Remez means it seems to me, is for you to make an actual argument - or give a little more detail to what you think the verse you picked out explains. No doubt to get a more accurate idea of how you "know or intepret" the theology concept, so we can compare notes to theists in discusions, because there are also other verses to point out ... but hey, no worries.

Picking at random:

Romans 7:12

So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.


Psalm 40:10

I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart;
I have spoken of Your faithfulness and Your salvation;
I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth from the great congregation.

Zephaniah 3:5

The Lord is righteous within her;
He will do no injustice.
Every morning He brings His justice to light;
He does not fail.
But the unjust knows no shame.


Psalm 11:7

For the Lord is righteous, He loves righteousness;
The upright will behold His face.

 

[DBT]

What Remez means, is to make an actual argument - or give a little more detail to what you think the verse you picked out means. I suppose to get a more acurate idea of how you "know" or intepret the theology (comparing to the theists in the discusion perhaps) when there are also verses to pick from, that you could also point out ... but hey, no worries.
.

I am not arguing.

I am pointing out that the bible states that God creates not only evil but the evildoer for the day of evil, including those 'fitted for destruction.

This is not a matter of argument, the verses are either in bible saying what they say, or they are not.

I didn't feel the need to post examples because I thought that everyone here should know the bible well enough to know that these verses are in the bible and do in fact state that God creates evil, the evildoer and those 'fitted for destruction....that nothing bad happens without the hand of God.

But OK, perhaps some are not aware. So here is a sample.


''Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.'' (Psalm 135:6)

"And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? Or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?" Exodus 4:11

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos
3:6, KJV)

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? " (Lamentations 3:38)


"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13



Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory' - Romans 9:21-23


"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.'' Proverbs 16:4

 

[Learner]

No probs. We can call you the Topic Man. Only Highlighting the verses... so others (if they choose) can discuss them in depth etc..

Nice one!


(watch out for Charlie..I think he wants that role too )