The God Zoo

[abaddon]

Is "god is the Universe, or Mother nature" discussed anywhere in this thread?

Pantheism is mentioned in the list in the OP, but I don't believe it's actually been discussed in this thread. I could be wrong - I haven't followed the thread as closely as I should have. Care to start a discussion?

Could be more interesting than the blindfaith believers going on about how 'the correct' interpretation of the Bible will explain how their malicious god isn't evil.

 

[Lion IRC]

If (since) God knows the greater good that will result from an event, any uneducated claim about the immorality of His actions is purely subjective.

It would be like an ignorant bystander watching a surgeon amputate a gangrenous limb and accusing the surgeon of torture.

Well, let's just take your little sound bite analogy a little bit further. After the bystander questions the surgeon, the surgeon will explain the purpose behind his action, and can back up his medical judgement with loads of studies, published and peer reviewed. Try that with your God. No explanation. None. No way to check or verify God's purposes. And therefore, no way to verify if God is moral or good or not.

I dont accept your (brute) claim that there are no bystanders aware of what the surgeon is doing.

Atheist bystanders are free to accuse the surgeon of being evil or claim that He isnt even an actual doctor. But you're not free to tell every other bystander that they dont know anything about the surgeon.

In this thread DBT is running his same old worn-out canard that evil is a 'thing' created by God rather than an adjective used to describe the ontological opposite (or absence) of GOOD/GOD

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If (since) God knows the greater good that will result from an event, any uneducated claim about the immorality of His actions is purely subjective.

It would be like an ignorant bystander watching a surgeon amputate a gangrenous limb and accusing the surgeon of torture.

Well, let's just take your little sound bite analogy a little bit further. After the bystander questions the surgeon, the surgeon will explain the purpose behind his action, and can back up his medical judgement with loads of studies, published and peer reviewed. Try that with your God. No explanation. None. No way to check or verify God's purposes. And therefore, no way to verify if God is moral or good or not.

I dont accept your (brute) claim that there are no bystanders aware of what the surgeon is doing.

Atheist bystanders are free to accuse the surgeon of being evil or claim that He isnt even an actual doctor. But you're not free to tell every other bystander that they dont know anything about the surgeon.

In this thread DBT is running his same old worn-out canard that evil is a 'thing' created by God rather than an adjective used to describe the ontological opposite (or absence) of GOOD/GOD

But regardless of all that, your analogy still carries with it the necessary situation that God literally looked at a large number of situations and said to himself, "You know what would be the optimal course of action to maximize the amount of good here? Child rape, that's what". An omni-being who could have chosen literally anything at all, decided that this was the best thing which could have possibly happened there.

Even if we don't know the specific details of why raping children was the best way forward anymore than someone might not know why cutting off an arm is the best way forward, you're still saying that your god is deciding that child rape is the optimal action and then asking that we accept his benevolence and wisdom just because.

 

[Lion IRC]

I cant find God saying "child rape" is good anywhere.

 

[hyzer]

If (since) God knows the greater good that will result from an event, any uneducated claim about the immorality of His actions is purely subjective.

It would be like an ignorant bystander watching a surgeon amputate a gangrenous limb and accusing the surgeon of torture.

Well, let's just take your little sound bite analogy a little bit further. After the bystander questions the surgeon, the surgeon will explain the purpose behind his action, and can back up his medical judgement with loads of studies, published and peer reviewed. Try that with your God. No explanation. None. No way to check or verify God's purposes. And therefore, no way to verify if God is moral or good or not.

I dont accept your (brute) claim that there are no bystanders aware of what the surgeon is doing.

Atheist bystanders are free to accuse the surgeon of being evil or claim that He isnt even an actual doctor. But you're not free to tell every other bystander that they dont know anything about the surgeon.

In this thread DBT is running his same old worn-out canard that evil is a 'thing' created by God rather than an adjective used to describe the ontological opposite (or absence) of GOOD/GOD

I never said that no bystanders are aware of what the surgeon is doing. What is said is very clear - we can ask the surgeon and the surgeon can explain to us and answer our questions.

Look, you can't say the following are all true:

1. God's ways are mysterious
2. God is always ultimately good

Pick one. There is no way to verify the second one. Period. From the human perspective, your God is an evil bastard. And frankly, I really don't care about God's perspective since it can't be explained in human terms. After all, ultimately we judge what is acceptable. I'm sure you do it. I do it every day.

 

[Lion IRC]

Gods ways arent entirely mysterious. Neither are they mysterious to everyone.

 

[DBT]

I cant find God saying "child rape" is good anywhere.

Ordering massacres, genocide and rape - keep the virgins for yourselves after you butcher the rest of the tribe including their livestock - is a matter of endorsing massacre, genocide and rape. You know the verses.

 

[DBT]

In this thread DBT is running his same old worn-out canard that evil is a 'thing' created by God rather than an adjective used to describe the ontological opposite (or absence) of GOOD/GOD

If people believe in the love and benevolence God as stated in some verses, it's not a worn out canard to point out that there are contradictions to that belief in the bible. Nor did I say that 'evil is a thing' at any stage of this dispute.

Evil is ordering a man to be killed, stoned to death for gathering sticks on a sabbath when a more lenient penalty may be applied. Evil is ordering genocide, ordering the killing of women and children.....evil is cursing the whole of creation because of a naive error of judgment made by an inexperienced couple.

 

[Learner]

I cant find God saying "child rape" is good anywhere.

Ordering massacres, genocide and rape - keep the virgins for yourselves after you butcher the rest of the tribe including their livestock - is a matter of endorsing massacre, genocide and rape. You know the verses.

With God on your side who can stand against you (the Israelites)? Those the Israelites fought would always be God's enemies in the future with their ways. It stopped there.

There's no endorsing rape- the clue is in the Virgins bit., and the understanding they had about fonication against the law and death is punishment for rape, however... having virgins IF taking for wives and not servants is not against the law.

 

[Learner]

If people believe in the love and benevolence God as stated in some verses, it's not a worn out canard to point out that there are contradictions to that belief in the bible. Nor did I say that 'evil is a thing' at any stage of this dispute.

Evil is ordering a man to be killed, stoned to death for gathering sticks on a sabbath when a more lenient penalty may be applied. Evil is ordering genocide, ordering the killing of women and children.....evil is cursing the whole of creation because of a naive error of judgment made by an inexperienced couple.

Some people are OK for individuals to be shot for treason in the world today. Punsihment for citizens disobeying the law.
God gave judgment because the law was broken. The Judge fulfils the law that is to be take seriously which was accepted and agreed upon by the Israelites, during those times when the Israelites were going against Gods ways.

 

[MxM111]

Is "god is the Universe, or Mother nature" discussed anywhere in this thread?

Pantheism is mentioned in the list in the OP, but I don't believe it's actually been discussed in this thread. I could be wrong - I haven't followed the thread as closely as I should have. Care to start a discussion?

Could be more interesting than the blindfaith believers going on about how 'the correct' interpretation of the Bible will explain how their malicious god isn't evil.

It is also interesting that a) it exists b) it is quite close to being omnipotent within physical laws, which arguably its own laws. But not sure about benevolent part.

Also, we are, part of this god. Like cells are part of us. We run software for it, which can be called culture or memes. Correction, we are hardware for evolution of memes. That includes science and philosophy and morals. And pictures of cats.

 

[DBT]

I cant find God saying "child rape" is good anywhere.

Ordering massacres, genocide and rape - keep the virgins for yourselves after you butcher the rest of the tribe including their livestock - is a matter of endorsing massacre, genocide and rape. You know the verses.

With God on your side who can stand against you (the Israelites)? Those the Israelites fought would always be God's enemies in the future with their ways. It stopped there.

Never mind the innocent women, children and animals....but keep the virgins for yourselves?

There's no endorsing rape- the clue is in the Virgins bit., and the understanding they had about fonication against the law and death is punishment for rape, however... having virgins IF taking for wives and not servants is not against the law.

Do you believe that the virgins willingly gave themselves to the killers of their family? '

'So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18 Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.'' - Numbers 31

 

[DBT]

If people believe in the love and benevolence God as stated in some verses, it's not a worn out canard to point out that there are contradictions to that belief in the bible. Nor did I say that 'evil is a thing' at any stage of this dispute.

Evil is ordering a man to be killed, stoned to death for gathering sticks on a sabbath when a more lenient penalty may be applied. Evil is ordering genocide, ordering the killing of women and children.....evil is cursing the whole of creation because of a naive error of judgment made by an inexperienced couple.

Some people are OK for individuals to be shot for treason in the world today. Punsihment for citizens disobeying the law.
God gave judgment because the law was broken. The Judge fulfils the law that is to be take seriously which was accepted and agreed upon by the Israelites, during those times when the Israelites were going against Gods ways.

It's not about what some are OK with. We have two entirely different pictures being painted of God, one a God of Love and another of a brutal killer, and it is this dichotomy that presents a contradiction.

 

[OLDMAN]

Sixteen pages of theist trying to deny that god has a plan. He created his plan, knows how it will play out and yet is not responsible for it. The problem I have is theist pretend god has no nature or attributes that dictate his actions....he is simply good for the sake of good, justified because he is powerful, moral because he can't be immoral, and on and on.

For example, god created the world in six days and deemed the seventh day as holy. (not sure why it is a day of rest for an all powerful god but) The sabbath is deemed holy and if you don't observe it, well too bad for you....but couldn't god have worked three days and rested for half a day? Eliminating the need for people to keep the sabbath holy and have one less thing to fuck up? After all the goal is to save souls... Honestly, I can't get through the book of Genesis without a thousand questions?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The bible tells you there's a contradiction as you notice so, hanging on and being limited to the textual (not contextual) contradiction. It won't tell you what is true or false.

There is no "the bible" in the sense that you are using the word. If "the bible" is anything it's a concept that exists only in your head which is evidenced by your lack of awareness as to what you read in a book.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

For example, god created the world in six days and deemed the seventh day as holy.

It's very mysterious. The bible god adopted the pagan Babylonian calendar and many of its myths when it revealed itself to its followers.

 

[MxM111]

For example, god created the world in six days and deemed the seventh day as holy.

It's very mysterious. The bible god adopted the pagan Babylonian calendar and many of its myths when it revealed itself to its followers.

One can always say that it is Babylonians that got it partly right somehow. But it is indeed mysterious that while God could have created the universe in an instant, was laboring for 6 days. And even needed a day to rest? Or is there a god's union controlling these things?

 

[DBT]

Hard work creating a Universe, no appreciation shown by anyone, and soon as it's finished all the little creatures run amok and ruin it with free will..... Gods work is never done, sob.

 

[ideologyhunter]

At least God gets to choose some "good folks" to smile on, and, would you believe it, he feels just exactly about their enemies as they do.

 

[Lion IRC]

I cant find God saying "child rape" is good anywhere.

Ordering massacres, genocide and rape - keep the virgins for yourselves after you butcher the rest of the tribe including their livestock - is a matter of endorsing massacre, genocide and rape. You know the verses.

No.
I dont 'know' the verses.
Show me God saying "child rape" IS good.

The atom bomb isnt good and yet the ostensibly good allies in WW2 used it to massacre thousands.
Obama was/is thought of as a good person and yet he has commanded the killing of human beings.