The human mind

[4321lynx]

Read my post at #117, mark, and inwardly digest.

 

[untermensche]

Saying the magic word "dualism" seems a comfort to some.

Is saying the heater is not the heat dualism?

 

[DBT]

Object as much as you like, but you are a Duelist. Your idea of autonomy of mind is Dualism, pure and simple.

 

[untermensche]

Object as much as you like, but you are a Duelist. Your idea of autonomy of mind is Dualism, pure and simple.

What exactly is the duality?

The idea of a body being at odds with a mind went out a long time ago.

When we discovered we have no idea what bodies are.

What is the body?

It reduces to a bunch of fields and forces.

How exactly is any of it a duality with a mind?

What is a mind?

 

[DBT]

Object as much as you like, but you are a Duelist. Your idea of autonomy of mind is Dualism, pure and simple.

What exactly is the duality?

The idea of a body being at odds with a mind went out a long time ago.

When we discovered we have no idea what bodies are.

What is the body?

It reduces to a bunch of fields and forces.

How exactly is any of it a duality with a mind?

What is a mind?

No idea? Just because everything is not understood about the body and mind doesn't mean that nothing is understood. Your autonomy of mind claim makes you a Duelist, and your 'we do not know about the body/mind means that you are resorting to a version of the god of the gaps fallacy..

 

[untermensche]

Object as much as you like, but you are a Duelist. Your idea of autonomy of mind is Dualism, pure and simple.

What exactly is the duality?

The idea of a body being at odds with a mind went out a long time ago.

When we discovered we have no idea what bodies are.

What is the body?

It reduces to a bunch of fields and forces.

How exactly is any of it a duality with a mind?

What is a mind?

No idea? Just because everything is not understood about the body and mind doesn't mean that nothing is understood. Your autonomy of mind claim makes you a Duelist, and your 'we do not know about the body/mind means that you are resorting to a version of the god of the gaps fallacy..

What exactly is the duality?

You have no idea what matter is, no idea what the body is, and no idea what the mind is.

How exactly do you think you can talk about any problem?

 

[4321lynx]

No idea? Just because everything is not understood about the body and mind doesn't mean that nothing is understood. Your autonomy of mind claim makes you a Duelist, and your 'we do not know about the body/mind means that you are resorting to a version of the god of the gaps fallacy..

What exactly is the duality?

You have no idea what matter is, no idea what the body is, and no idea what the mind is.

How exactly do you think you can talk about any problem?

As far as mind goes DBT has obviously agreed with the quote he gave us which I repeat:

''Ask yourself, is the functioning brain identical to the mind? If your answer is no, you are a closet dualist.

''As a neurologist, I contend that consciousness is nothing more than the ability of our brain to acquire information (which is the state of being awake) AND all the content that the information contains AND the ability to get all that information into and out of memory. The key word is "ALL". If you have all that, you are conscious of the blue sky and the red sun. Nothing more is needed to be conscious of that beautiful sky. My contention is that the brain can do all that, and, therefore, a functioning brain is identical to a conscious mind. That makes me a materialist and not a dualist.''

The source of it will be seen if you click on the words "Ask yourself" in the original quote or in my post under #117

Not that I have any hope that your superior independent mind will allow your brain, both being things that you have said you know nothing about,*) to question your self-imposed negative dogma.

*) see your post at # 124

 

[untermensche]

The mind is an end product of brain activity. It is not the activity. It is not the brain.

Is the heat the same thing as the heater?

Can your mind grasp that?

 

[fromderinside]

We can really. For instance the product of a heater is a physical energy we named heat after the machine that produces it which we named for what it does. The mind you describe is a thing not a generalized product of the brain which is exactly what heat is produced by a heater. Go back to the drawing board.

The brain produces signals for activity in humans and other living things with nervous systems. If you start there you might get to a thing. It would be a physical measurable thing not the floating tag you produce.

 

[untermensche]

The mind I describe is a product of some kind of activity. Nobody has the slightest clue what specific activity.

And things like ideas exist in minds and nowhere else.

 

[DBT]

The mind is an end product of brain activity. It is not the activity. It is not the brain.

Is the heat the same thing as the heater?

Can your mind grasp that?

That is where you go wrong. As the electro-chemical mind forming activity of a brain is inseparable from the brain, the mind being generated by a brain is an aspect or feature of a brain.

Mind does not control the brain as you believe. It is the brain that interacts with the world by means of a mind.....if you can see the distinction.

 

[untermensche]

The mind is an end product of brain activity. It is not the activity. It is not the brain.

Is the heat the same thing as the heater?

Can your mind grasp that?

That is where you go wrong. As the electro-chemical mind forming activity of a brain is inseparable from the brain, the mind being generated by a brain is an aspect or feature of a brain.

Mind does not control the brain as you believe. It is the brain that interacts with the world by means of a mind.....if you can see the distinction.

There is no known chemical process that results in a mind.

There is no known electrical process that results in a mind.

There is no known electro-chemical event that results in a mind.

How the mind arises is completely unknown.

So what the mind cannot do is unknown too.

To say the mind cannot have a feedback effect on the brain is to pretend to know what is not known.

All we know is what the mind clearly looks like it is doing.

Something must be done with the mind to get the arm to move as desired.

And there is nothing to doubt this clear evidence.

 

[DBT]

The mind is an end product of brain activity. It is not the activity. It is not the brain.

Is the heat the same thing as the heater?

Can your mind grasp that?

That is where you go wrong. As the electro-chemical mind forming activity of a brain is inseparable from the brain, the mind being generated by a brain is an aspect or feature of a brain.

Mind does not control the brain as you believe. It is the brain that interacts with the world by means of a mind.....if you can see the distinction.

There is no known chemical process that results in a mind.

There is no known electrical process that results in a mind.

There is no known electro-chemical event that results in a mind.

How the mind arises is completely unknown.

So what the mind cannot do is unknown too.

To say the mind cannot have a feedback effect on the brain is to pretend to know what is not known.

All we know is what the mind clearly looks like it is doing.

Something must be done with the mind to get the arm to move as desired.

And there is nothing to doubt this clear evidence.

You miss the point. Please read more carefully.

 

[untermensche]

You merely say that everything the mind does is really done by the brain.

And you use your mind not your brain to do it.

It is not persuasive in the least.

It is not an argument or rational conclusion of any kind.

It is a prejudice.

 

[DBT]

You merely say that everything the mind does is really done by the brain.

And you use your mind not your brain to do it.

It is not persuasive in the least.

It is not an argument or rational conclusion of any kind.


It is a prejudice.

Well, why not give your own account of how it's done and how it works.

 

[untermensche]

You merely say that everything the mind does is really done by the brain.

And you use your mind not your brain to do it.

It is not persuasive in the least.

It is not an argument or rational conclusion of any kind.

It is a prejudice.

Well, why not give your own account of how it's done and how it works.

Some activity is creating a capacity.

A capacity to experience and think and act.

The capacity has a feedback ability on the brain.

 

[DBT]

You merely say that everything the mind does is really done by the brain.

And you use your mind not your brain to do it.

It is not persuasive in the least.

It is not an argument or rational conclusion of any kind.

It is a prejudice.

Well, why not give your own account of how it's done and how it works.

Some activity is creating a capacity.

A capacity to experience and think and act.

The capacity has a feedback ability on the brain.

That's just a vague set of claims. I meant an actual explanation for how mind may acquire the autonomy to make decisions and operate the brain.

 

[untermensche]

Some activity is creating a capacity.

A capacity to experience and think and act.

The capacity has a feedback ability on the brain.

That's just a vague set of claims. I meant an actual explanation for how mind may acquire the autonomy to make decisions and operate the brain.

You have not given me anything more than this.

How does a brain make a decision?

How does a brain create the experience of "blue"?

How does a brain create something that can experience "blue" and know it is experiencing "blue" not "red"?

You do know when you are experiencing "blue" not "red", right?

 

[DBT]

Some activity is creating a capacity.

A capacity to experience and think and act.

The capacity has a feedback ability on the brain.

That's just a vague set of claims. I meant an actual explanation for how mind may acquire the autonomy to make decisions and operate the brain.

You have not given me anything more than this.

How does a brain make a decision?

How does a brain create the experience of "blue"?

How does a brain create something that can experience "blue" and know it is experiencing "blue" not "red"?

You do know when you are experiencing "blue" not "red", right?

How does a mind without a brain make decisions?

How does mind achieve autonomy from the brain?

How does your proposed autonomous mind form sensory perception, colours, sounds or feelings, emotions, thoughts and decisions?

Any ideas? No?

Thought not.

 

[untermensche]

How does a mind without a brain make decisions?

The mind does not make decisions without a brain. A brain is needed to generate the mind.

How does mind achieve autonomy from the brain?

That is an interesting question for science to answer after it discovers what the mind is.

How does your proposed autonomous mind form sensory perception, colours, sounds or feelings, emotions, thoughts and decisions?

A decision is something different from a sensation or perception or emotion.

Those are all experienced.

A decision is made.