The human mind

[Speakpigeon]

That ^ is the hard problem of consciousness presented by David Chalmers in 1995, and not sufficiently answered since. Dennet avoided it, didn't answer it.
[emphasis mine] - Wikipedia

The polymath and philosopher Gottfried Leibniz wrote in 1714, as an example also known as Leibniz's gap:

Moreover, it must be confessed that perception and that which depends upon it are inexplicable on mechanical grounds, that is to say, by means of figures and motions. And supposing there were a machine, so constructed as to think, feel, and have perception, it might be conceived as increased in size, while keeping the same proportions, so that one might go into it as into a mill. That being so, we should, on examining its interior, find only parts which work one upon another, and never anything by which to explain a perception.[10]

[emphasis mine] - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

Hear, hear!

Still, you will find that some people here will read your post in minute details, and magnify it the more to be able to read it to their heart's content, and magnify it further still in raging frustration, because upon furious reading and upon extraordinary magnification, they will only find utterly meaningless pixels and still won't be able to find anything like pure meaning, even though meaning somewhere there must be, as we all certainly know.
EB

 

[untermensche]

To us all is experience.

We are not bodies.

We are minds that experience.

And we are not imagining what is happening. We are experiencing a brain created representation of what is happening.

You are saying all is a myth.

In a nutshell, yes. A brain created representation. That's what brains do. How is that not a product of the imagination? It's part of the specification. Consciousness is "what it's like" to be something. The basic operation of describing one thing in terms of others things.

Experience is representation because of external stimulation.

Imagination is non-representation, abstraction, because of internal stimulation.

 

[DBT]

That it is not yet understood how a brain forms consciousness does not mean that it not clear that it takes the physical presence and electro-chemical activity of a brain to form and generate consciousness...the expression of which is directly related to the architecture and information state of that brain determining its attributes and abilities of mind/consciousness.

 

[fromderinside]

OK so now neurons which have mechanisms for transmitting and receiving transmitter chemicals are at the mercy of electricity?

A parse too far!

Bonn.

Put untermenche is the wagon boys. He's going home to The Home where he belongs.

 

[untermensche]

That it is not yet understood how a brain forms consciousness does not mean that it not clear that it takes the physical presence and electro-chemical activity of a brain to form and generate consciousness...the expression of which is directly related to the architecture and information state of that brain determining its attributes and abilities of mind/consciousness.

Nowhere have I ever said the mind is not a product of brain activity.

It is a product of activity that can have an organized feedback effect.

You cannot claim that simple feedback is some miraculous impossibility.

 

[untermensche]

OK so now neurons which have mechanisms for transmitting and receiving transmitter chemicals are at the mercy of electricity?

A parse too far!

Bonn.

Put untermenche is the wagon boys. He's going home to The Home where he belongs.

No such claim has been made.

The mind does not effect cells.

It effects the activity that creates it.

This effects cells.

 

[DBT]

That it is not yet understood how a brain forms consciousness does not mean that it not clear that it takes the physical presence and electro-chemical activity of a brain to form and generate consciousness...the expression of which is directly related to the architecture and information state of that brain determining its attributes and abilities of mind/consciousness.

Nowhere have I ever said the mind is not a product of brain activity.

It is a product of activity that can have an organized feedback effect.

You cannot claim that simple feedback is some miraculous impossibility.

It is your ''organized feedback effect'' that is questionable. If there is an 'organizing feedback activity', that activity is being performed not by autonomous mind but the brain.

That is the point where you go wrong.

 

[WAB]

*deleted*

 

[WAB]

Mind- subjective
Brain - objevtive

Very simple.

 

[untermensche]

That it is not yet understood how a brain forms consciousness does not mean that it not clear that it takes the physical presence and electro-chemical activity of a brain to form and generate consciousness...the expression of which is directly related to the architecture and information state of that brain determining its attributes and abilities of mind/consciousness.

Nowhere have I ever said the mind is not a product of brain activity.

It is a product of activity that can have an organized feedback effect.

You cannot claim that simple feedback is some miraculous impossibility.

It is your ''organized feedback effect'' that is questionable. If there is an 'organizing feedback activity', that activity is being performed not by autonomous mind but the brain.

That is the point where you go wrong.

No. The organized feedback originates in the mind.

A thought creates the desire to act and the mind orders the body into action. The mind can also decide to not order the action based on a second thought.

Only a mind has awareness of thoughts.

- - - Updated - - -

Mind- subjective
Brain - objevtive

Very simple.

Yes. Two distinct entities.

 

[DBT]

It is your ''organized feedback effect'' that is questionable. If there is an 'organizing feedback activity', that activity is being performed not by autonomous mind but the brain.

That is the point where you go wrong.

No. The organized feedback originates in the mind.

Nope, mind, while active, is being formed and generated and constantly fed processed information by the brain, so all feedback loops are the work of the brain updating or 'refreshing' conscious mind as it is being experienced.

Your position is that of a duelist.

 

[untermensche]

It is your ''organized feedback effect'' that is questionable. If there is an 'organizing feedback activity', that activity is being performed not by autonomous mind but the brain.

That is the point where you go wrong.

No. The organized feedback originates in the mind.

Nope, mind, while active, is being formed and generated and constantly fed processed information by the brain, so all feedback loops are the work of the brain updating or 'refreshing' conscious mind as it is being experienced.

Your position is that of a duelist.

Oh no! I'm a duelist! Whatever shall I do?

Of course I'm a duelist.

To think the brain and the mind are the same thing with the same capabilities is absolute nonsense and there is nothing that demonstrates it.

You can't talk about the mind and what it can do.

You don't even know what it is objectively. Science has not even discovered what it is yet.

But we do know that experience takes place and the thing that experiences is called the mind.

Your empty wind about dualism is something pulled from your ass. You have no data to support it.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Mind- subjective
Brain - objevtive

Very simple.

Yeah, but you're not being very objective here.

You should have said:

Mind, knows itself to exists.
Brain? Well, mind certainly doesn't know about that.

They won't stop. They don't know how to stop.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

No.

Nope.

Your position is that of a duelist.

Well, yours as well.

So, two duelists...

Duel
n.
1. A prearranged, formal combat between two persons, usually fought to settle a point of honour.
2. A struggle for domination between two contending persons, groups, or ideas.
dueler n., duelist n.

I guess, duelists come only in pairs.
EB

 

[DBT]

Wow, it's all in the semantics......


''Ask yourself, is the functioning brain identical to the mind? If your answer is no, you are a closet dualist.

''As a neurologist, I contend that consciousness is nothing more than the ability of our brain to acquire information (which is the state of being awake) AND all the content that the information contains AND the ability to get all that information into and out of memory. The key word is "ALL". If you have all that, you are conscious of the blue sky and the red sun. Nothing more is needed to be conscious of that beautiful sky. My contention is that the brain can do all that, and, therefore, a functioning brain is identical to a conscious mind. That makes me a materialist and not a dualist.''

 

[4321lynx]

unter said

Why would an evolved brain make frivolous movements?

It is irrational to say the brain would do things like this.

You might as well ask why does a dog lick its prick?

The answer to both questions is "Because it can".

Both actions may be labelled "frivolous", depending only on your definition of frivolous. Why? Because you can define frivolous in a way that suits your purpose.

 

[4321lynx]

Wow, it's all in the semantics......


''Ask yourself, is the functioning brain identical to the mind? If your answer is no, you are a closet dualist.

''As a neurologist, I contend that consciousness is nothing more than the ability of our brain to acquire information (which is the state of being awake) AND all the content that the information contains AND the ability to get all that information into and out of memory. The key word is "ALL". If you have all that, you are conscious of the blue sky and the red sun. Nothing more is needed to be conscious of that beautiful sky. My contention is that the brain can do all that, and, therefore, a functioning brain is identical to a conscious mind. That makes me a materialist and not a dualist.''

Thank you for that link. Very Sage statement and implied advice, (pun intended).

In spite of this type of solution/advice the dualists will continue to deny and question it, just like the dog who will return to licking his prick from time to time, it gets to be a habit with both.

 

[untermensche]

unter said

Why would an evolved brain make frivolous movements?

It is irrational to say the brain would do things like this.

You might as well ask why does a dog lick its prick?

The answer to both questions is "Because it can".

Both actions may be labelled "frivolous", depending only on your definition of frivolous. Why? Because you can define frivolous in a way that suits your purpose.

Nothing frivolous in licking anything.

That is productive movement.

Something is accomplished. Something is licked.

Just waving your arm around randomly at home is frivolous nonproductive movement.

 

[4321lynx]

unter said

Why would an evolved brain make frivolous movements?

It is irrational to say the brain would do things like this.

You might as well ask why does a dog lick its prick?

The answer to both questions is "Because it can".

Both actions may be labelled "frivolous", depending only on your definition of frivolous. Why? Because you can define frivolous in a way that suits your purpose.

Nothing frivolous in licking anything.

That is productive movement.

Something is accomplished. Something is licked.

Just waving your arm around randomly at home is frivolous nonproductive movement.

Oh, I disagree. This frivolous movement seems to have come in very useful for you. You have repeatedly used it elsewhere in this forum to your satisfaction, anyway. Whether that can be considered as the image licking your self-esteem , or you "licking" a favourite image, or as a mutual such licking, depends on the spectator's perspective, but it is not non-productive or frivolous.

(Waves arm around randomly and disappears.)

 

[untermensche]

Nothing frivolous in licking anything.

That is productive movement.

Something is accomplished. Something is licked.

Just waving your arm around randomly at home is frivolous nonproductive movement.

Oh, I disagree. This frivolous movement seems to have come in very useful for you. You have repeatedly used it elsewhere in this forum to your satisfaction, anyway. Whether that can be considered as the image licking your self-esteem , or you "licking" a favourite image, or as a mutual such licking, depends on the spectator's perspective, but it is not non-productive or frivolous.

(Waves arm around randomly and disappears.)

This is about ideas, not me.

You seem to have run out of ideas.

Good luck.