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The impact of false accusations.

Derec

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Why isn't the Daily Show talking about UND (student expelled even though the female was actually charged with a crime), Vassar (professor's daughter accuses a guy a year later with no evidence and he gets expelled) and all the other similar cases, all because of Obama's policy to strip male college students of their due process rights? In other words, why so damn one-sided Jon?
 


Why isn't the Daily Show talking about UND (student expelled even though the female was actually charged with a crime), Vassar (professor's daughter accuses a guy a year later with no evidence and he gets expelled) and all the other similar cases, all because of Obama's policy to strip male college students of their due process rights? In other words, why so damn one-sided Jon?


Why don't you ever talk about anything else other than UND, Vassar and the very small hand-full of imagined injustices that you use to excuse every case of rape ever brought up for discussion.

Duke Duke Duke gooooooooo Duke!
 
Why don't you ever talk about anything else other than UND, Vassar and the very small hand-full of imagined injustices that you use to excuse every case of rape ever brought up for discussion.
Because you and others on your side keep defending the inexcusable actions of these universities.
Also because these cases expose the problems with the Obama policy of making it much easier to expel students accused of "sexual assault" even when they are clearly innocent.
- the "preponderance of evidence" standard is too weak and makes "false positives" too likely.
- college administrators are biased and are finding male students guilty even when it is more likely that no sexual assault took place than that it did
- too broad a definition of "sexual assault" that takes more from the Ms. magazine definition that anything anchored in reality
- in particular, any evidence of drunkenness is used as evidence that the female (and only the female) is automatically "too drunk to consent"
- if a male is drunk also that is not used as evidence that he was "too drunk to consent" and the female is never punished. Most if not all of these cases had both parties drunk and neither "too drunk to consent" by any objective measure.
- male students are given very limited opportunity to defend themselves and to question their accuser and alleged witnesses against them. In fact the very identities of alleged witnesses are often kept secret.
- exculpatory evidence (such as Mary Claire Walker sending messages to the falsely accused male student that she had a "great time") is dismissed as "irrelevant"
- At Vassar specifically there is a long history of sexist bias against male students going back at least to a former dean saying that males enduring false accusation is a good thing to happen to them.

Duke Duke Duke gooooooooo Duke!
Duke is a good example too. It was really shameful how the university acted (especially the sexist and racist Group of 88, how the media acted (esp. Nancy Disgrace) and how the district attorney acted. And regardless of all the evidence for their innocence, there are some still pushing the "something must have happened" angle.

But there is also Hofstra which is interesting in relation to this thread in that the only reason the innocent male students did not spend more time in jail than they did is that they videoed the sex they had with Danmell Ndonye, the false accuser. Once confronted with the tape, she admitted she made the whole thing up.
 
^^ I agree.

Every person is accountable for the choices they make. If you choose to make a false allegation, you are accountable for that choice. If you choose to engage in non-consensual sexual activity, you are accountable for that choice. If you choose to slander a person by claiming their allegations are false when you don't know if they are or aren't, you are accountable for that choice. If you choose to make misandrist, misogynist, or misanthropic allegations you are responsible for that choice.
 
If you make an accusation of any crime, when you know said allegation is false, should be a crime. Deliberate false allegation of any crime, should be subject to punishment in kind, meaning punishment equal to what the wrongfully accused would have received, had they been convicted. Criminal conviction standard should be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, in a court of law, of both elements of the crime. Elements of the crime should be wrongful accusation and knowing said allegation is wrongful.
 
If you make an accusation of any crime, when you know said allegation is false, should be a crime. Deliberate false allegation of any crime, should be subject to punishment in kind, meaning punishment equal to what the wrongfully accused would have received, had they been convicted. Criminal conviction standard should be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, in a court of law, of both elements of the crime. Elements of the crime should be wrongful accusation and knowing said allegation is wrongful.

Filing a false police report is a crime. Whether it's a misdemeanor or a felony offense depends on the type of offense being falsely reported and the nuances of each state's laws.

Falsely accusing someone of wrongdoing can also be grounds for a lawsuit, even if the police never become involved. So I'm not sure what changes to the law people would like to see here. We already have laws on the books to punish those who would falsely accuse others. Perhaps there is a perception we don't prosecute the offenders often enough.
 
If you make an accusation of any crime, when you know said allegation is false, should be a crime. Deliberate false allegation of any crime, should be subject to punishment in kind, meaning punishment equal to what the wrongfully accused would have received, had they been convicted. Criminal conviction standard should be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, in a court of law, of both elements of the crime. Elements of the crime should be wrongful accusation and knowing said allegation is wrongful.

Filing a false police report is a crime. Whether it's a misdemeanor or a felony offense depends on the type of offense being falsely reported and the nuances of each state's laws.

Falsely accusing someone of wrongdoing can also be grounds for a lawsuit, even if the police never become involved. So I'm not sure what changes to the law people would like to see here. We already have laws on the books to punish those who would falsely accuse others. Perhaps there is a perception we don't prosecute the offenders often enough.

Good, that's what should happen under such circumstances, now we need to move to prosecute those people more consistently. Punishment, should be equal to what the other person would have received, not sure that's the case in all jurisdictions, but IMO, it should be. Civil suit, while that's an available option under the law, isn't of much use if the false accuser has little to no assets.
 
So the solution is to outlaw rape allegations.
The solution is to hold people accountable for their actions. Even if you are female.

Exactly. A provably false allegation (not merely mistaken) should carry the same penalty as the crime itself.

("Jerry raped me last night". Turns out it was a stranger that looked like Jerry. Mistake, no crime. "Jerry raped me last night". Except she sent a text the next day thanking him for a wonderful time last night. He responded that he most certainly didn't and wouldn't be seeing her again so she got mad and cried rape. She goes to jail.)
 
The only way to eliminate the problem of FALSE allegations is to eliminate the possibility of an allegation. All other solutions still permit the possibility of a false allegation.
 
If you make an accusation of any crime, when you know said allegation is false, should be a crime. Deliberate false allegation of any crime, should be subject to punishment in kind, meaning punishment equal to what the wrongfully accused would have received, had they been convicted. Criminal conviction standard should be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, in a court of law, of both elements of the crime. Elements of the crime should be wrongful accusation and knowing said allegation is wrongful.

OK

How are you going to prove that it was false? A lot of cases where are dismissed or defendant found not guilty in spite of having committed the crime, do we charge those victims? Will it make it so that fewer people lay charges?
 
If you make an accusation of any crime, when you know said allegation is false, should be a crime. Deliberate false allegation of any crime, should be subject to punishment in kind, meaning punishment equal to what the wrongfully accused would have received, had they been convicted. Criminal conviction standard should be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, in a court of law, of both elements of the crime. Elements of the crime should be wrongful accusation and knowing said allegation is wrongful.
OK

How are you going to prove that it was false? A lot of cases where are dismissed or defendant found not guilty in spite of having committed the crime, do we charge those victims? Will it make it so that fewer people lay charges?
^^^ that

As we've repeatedly seen, even when there is no arrest or prosecution for lack of evidence, some people take that as positive proof that the accuser is a lying liar who lies.
 
Because you and others on your side keep defending the inexcusable actions of these universities.
Also because these cases expose the problems with the Obama policy of making it much easier to expel students accused of "sexual assault" even when they are clearly innocent.
None of the cases you have cited demonstrate clear innocence.

If they were clearly innocent then they would be found innocent even by the relatively low preponderance-of-evidence standard.
 
If you make an accusation of any crime, when you know said allegation is false, should be a crime. Deliberate false allegation of any crime, should be subject to punishment in kind, meaning punishment equal to what the wrongfully accused would have received, had they been convicted. Criminal conviction standard should be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, in a court of law, of both elements of the crime. Elements of the crime should be wrongful accusation and knowing said allegation is wrongful.

OK

How are you going to prove that it was false? A lot of cases where are dismissed or defendant found not guilty in spite of having committed the crime, do we charge those victims? Will it make it so that fewer people lay charges?

Depends on the evidence available to the prosecution. In some cases there is evidence that the person is lying, it should be admissible (should be admissible as a defense to a rape charge as well). The standard of proof should be the same as any other crime, proof beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. Courts will not catch every guilty party on any crime, so I don't expect it here. Even in this case some will get away with it, like any other crime, but at least some will be caught. Also if jurors know that there is really no substantial punishment for those caught lying, it gives them less reason to believe that they're telling the truth. (No real penalty not to, and no real deterrent to false allegations, if it routinely goes unprosecuted)

What I do expect is that known deliberate false allegations be prosecuted, and they carry penalties, upon conviction, equal to the penalty the falsely accused would have received had they been falsely convicted. Why shouldn't a person who makes a criminal claim, when they know it to be false not be subject to prosecution? Do people not know right from wrong?
 
OK

How are you going to prove that it was false? A lot of cases where are dismissed or defendant found not guilty in spite of having committed the crime, do we charge those victims? Will it make it so that fewer people lay charges?

Depends on the evidence available to the prosecution. In some cases there is evidence that the person is lying, it should be admissible (should be admissible as a defense to a rape charge as well). The standard of proof should be the same as any other crime, proof beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. Courts will not catch every guilty party on any crime, so I don't expect it here. Even in this case some will get away with it, like any other crime, but at least some will be caught. Also if jurors know that there is really no substantial punishment for those caught lying, it gives them less reason to believe that they're telling the truth. (No real penalty not to, and no real deterrent to false allegations, if it routinely goes unprosecuted)

What I do expect is that known deliberate false allegations be prosecuted, and they carry penalties, upon conviction, equal to the penalty the falsely accused would have received had they been falsely convicted.
Considering mandatory sentencing in some States like in Florida, a judiciary process which is highly contested, I am not sure anyone would want the party proven to have made a false accusation to "receive" a sentence equal to what the falsely accused party would have received if convicted. In such cases (which as a reminder are isolated incidences of demonstrated false accusations), that is when rehabilitative justice should be implemented. Such as mandated community services time. Preferably community services time scheduled in environments where the party charged and found guilty of falsely accusing will be in contact with detainees and in contact with rape victims. Because the damage such party does is harmful not just and only to an innocent man but also to all rape victims.

Those false accusers do fuel a mentality who considers that a non guilty verdict means that the plaintiff was lying. Or that if the victim does not come forward it is because there is something suspicious going on. I recall on FRDB, several years ago, the first time I shared my own experience (as a recovered rape victim under the specific circumstance of a drug facilitated date rape) that I was "greeted" by a reply containing the remark "your alleged rape". Fortunately, I have the fortitude to take such comments with a grain of salt. But not all rape victims have such fortitude. And for them, such dismissal of their experience can reopen wounds still in the healing process.

Why shouldn't a person who makes a criminal claim, when they know it to be false not be subject to prosecution? Do people not know right from wrong?
I have no issue with charges being filed against such individual. It is how the judiciary system is to handle it where I disagree with you. Ideally, such person is to become a poster-person advocate against false accusations. It will be far more productive if they can get motivated to undertake such task rather than rotting for X number of years in detention.
 
Depends on the evidence available to the prosecution. In some cases there is evidence that the person is lying, it should be admissible (should be admissible as a defense to a rape charge as well). The standard of proof should be the same as any other crime, proof beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. Courts will not catch every guilty party on any crime, so I don't expect it here. Even in this case some will get away with it, like any other crime, but at least some will be caught. Also if jurors know that there is really no substantial punishment for those caught lying, it gives them less reason to believe that they're telling the truth. (No real penalty not to, and no real deterrent to false allegations, if it routinely goes unprosecuted)

What I do expect is that known deliberate false allegations be prosecuted, and they carry penalties, upon conviction, equal to the penalty the falsely accused would have received had they been falsely convicted.
Considering mandatory sentencing in some States like in Florida, a judiciary process which is highly contested, I am not sure anyone would want the party proven to have made a false accusation to "receive" a sentence equal to what the falsely accused party would have received if convicted. In such cases (which as a reminder are isolated incidences of demonstrated false accusations), that is when rehabilitative justice should be implemented. Such as mandated community services time. Preferably community services time scheduled in environments where the party charged and found guilty of falsely accusing will be in contact with detainees and in contact with rape victims. Because the damage such party does is harmful not just and only to an innocent man but also to all rape victims.

Those false accusers do fuel a mentality who considers that a non guilty verdict means that the plaintiff was lying. Or that if the victim does not come forward it is because there is something suspicious going on. I recall on FRDB, several years ago, the first time I shared my own experience (as a recovered rape victim under the specific circumstance of a drug facilitated date rape) that I was "greeted" by a reply containing the remark "your alleged rape". Fortunately, I have the fortitude to take such comments with a grain of salt. But not all rape victims have such fortitude. And for them, such dismissal of their experience can reopen wounds still in the healing process.

Why shouldn't a person who makes a criminal claim, when they know it to be false not be subject to prosecution? Do people not know right from wrong?
I have no issue with charges being filed against such individual. It is how the judiciary system is to handle it where I disagree with you. Ideally, such person is to become a poster-person advocate against false accusations. It will be far more productive if they can get motivated to undertake such task rather than rotting for X number of years in detention.

By receive a penalty, I mean face the exact same consequences as the person who they falsely accuse would get. I see no problem with that, as it is justice for the wrongfully accused, and deterrent to false allegations. I said your alleged rape, as I have no way of knowing what the truth is in that situation, I wasn't there. From my point of view you're an accuser, given that I don't have any evidence beyond what you say. That's not intended to be insensitive, but I have to go on the information I actually have.

I think that penalty should be just as harsh, because I think that having to do community service for a false allegation of any crime, unless the crime itself was punished by community service, is much more lenient than what the falsely accused would get if they were wrongfully convicted.

If a person is falsely accused of rape it's reasonably foreseeable that he can face the following consequences:

Loss of good name that he can never get back.

Risk of physical assault by those who think he's guilty, even if it's not. Injury or death is a reasonably predictable outcome.

If he's (wrongfully) convicted, being imprisoned it's reasonable to believe he will face..

Violence against his person in prison, which can include beating, rape, or murder. Rape can also mean HIV infection. Rapists would rank just above child molesters in any prison hierarchy.

If he survives that, permanent damage to his ability to earn a living, within the law.

If he can gather the resources to do so, where he can legally reside is limited.

Permanent listing on the sex offender registry, and having to always report his whereabouts to the local police.

Given these potential, and reasonably foreseeable, consequences to the accused, I'd say that community service for the false accuser is far too mild a penalty. They just don't match up to what the other person is being put through. I don't think that a false accuser's freedom should be in any way more valuable than the freedom of an innocent person accused.

For the purpose of this post, and any future post, by false accuser, I mean someone who makes an accusation, knowing that it's false. The standard of proof should be the same as any other crime. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.
 
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