• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The kind of free will we have

Speakpigeon

Contributor
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
6,317
Location
Paris, France, EU
Basic Beliefs
Rationality (i.e. facts + logic), Scepticism (not just about God but also everything beyond my subjective experience)
I see free will as the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

I think this is the notion of free will most people have.

If you disagree with this, please explain why.
EB
 
I see free will as the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

I think this is the notion of free will most people have.

If you disagree with this, please explain why.
EB

I'm amenable to that. But all our choices are to some extent coerced, limited or influenced by other people.
 
I see free will as the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

I think this is the notion of free will most people have.

If you disagree with this, please explain why.
EB

I'm amenable to that. But all our choices are to some extent coerced, limited or influenced by other people.
Of course.

I think that those who use the term 'free will' in its practical (non-libertarian) sense are only interested in (what they see as) morally relevant coercion/limitations/influences.
 
I see free will as the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

I think this is the notion of free will most people have.

If you disagree with this, please explain why.
EB

I'm amenable to that. But all our choices are to some extent coerced, limited or influenced by other people.
Of course.

I think that those who use the term 'free will' in its practical (non-libertarian) sense are only interested in (what they see as) morally relevant coercion/limitations/influences.

I don't know, but I see some degree of morality implied in any usage of the term. The libertarian interpretation seems to have its origin in monotheistic western religions and neoplatonism, which is all about morality. I think morality based on humanist ideals is more relevant to today's world.
 
I see free will as the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

I think this is the notion of free will most people have.

If you disagree with this, please explain why.
EB

So your sense of free will is social and political, rather than philosophical in scope?
 
I see free will as the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

I think this is the notion of free will most people have.

If you disagree with this, please explain why.
EB

So your sense of free will is social and political, rather than philosophical in scope?
It's consistent with free will as introduced by compatibilists.
 
I see free will as the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

I think this is the notion of free will most people have.

If you disagree with this, please explain why.
EB

I'm amenable to that.

I hope I'm not being too coercing, limiting or influencing here.

But all our choices are to some extent coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

Not necessarily our choices themselves. Some, yes, not all of them. Some people are easily influenced and for particular choices there are people who will be coerced or limited. But for most of us, most of the time, our choices are just what we ourselves want. When we make a choice, we will or we won't have in mind what some other people may have suggested we do, but even when we do, it doesn't mean we're necessarily going to make a different choice as a result. Free will usually suggests determination. If influence from other people overcomes our determination then it's just not a case of patent free will, just as for coercion. A prisoner who escapes prison has to overcome coercion. Only in the case of the successful escapee can we conclude to free will. The prisoner who stays inside may either be prevented from escaping or just be willing to stay in. So, we cannot conclude in this case.
EB
 
I see free will as the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

I think this is the notion of free will most people have.

If you disagree with this, please explain why.
EB

So your sense of free will is social and political, rather than philosophical in scope?

Social, yes in the sense of ordinary, everyday human relations. Political may mean philosophical, if only opportunistically. I think that our notion of free will comes out of our everyday practice and experience of human relations. And we all get this particular notion of free will, and broadly the same, by ourselves, through our everyday interactions with other people, including linguistic interactions.

This is to be distinguished from the more formal concepts of free will coming ultimately from religious or political propaganda, with or without help from philosophers.
EB
 
But all our choices are to some extent coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

Not necessarily our choices themselves. Some, yes, not all of them.
I can't think of any choice we make that might be totally insulated from any prior external influences to some extent. Other than unconsciously reactive (unchosen) actions.
 
I see free will as the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

I think this is the notion of free will most people have.

If you disagree with this, please explain why.
EB
"influenced" isn't a word I would of used.

I might influence your choice, but that doesn't mean your choice was against your will.
 
But all our choices are to some extent coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

Not necessarily our choices themselves. Some, yes, not all of them.
I can't think of any choice we make that might be totally insulated from any prior external influences to some extent. Other than unconsciously reactive (unchosen) actions.

Sure, and, equally, how many different influences are we subjected to on a given matter?

And if we're influenced by other people, are we not most of the time first and foremost influenced by ourselves?

So, let me make explicit what I thought could have stayed implicit:

Free will is the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or decisively influenced by other people.

Not doing this of my own free will here. :(
EB
 
I see free will as the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

I think this is the notion of free will most people have.

If you disagree with this, please explain why.
EB
"influenced" isn't a word I would of used.

Don't be so coy. What would you suggest?

Induced? Motivated? Both better in some sense and yet not so good.

I might influence your choice, but that doesn't mean your choice was against your will.

That's true.

Still, it would usually be difficult to tell how the choice came to be made: because of one's free will or because of somebody else's influence.

And if because of one's free will, then the influence wouldn't have been decisive (see my previous post).
EB
 
Don't be so coy. What would you suggest?

Induced? Motivated? Both better in some sense and yet not so good.

I might influence your choice, but that doesn't mean your choice was against your will.

That's true.

Still, it would usually be difficult to tell how the choice came to be made: because of one's free will or because of somebody else's influence.

And if because of one's free will, then the influence wouldn't have been decisive (see my previous post).
EB
"Compelled" is the word I would use.

The issue of wants is important
The issue of compulsion is important

If I want to do x, then no presence of force is a presence of compulsion.

If a dog wants to stay, then the rope is not a compelling force.
If the dog wants to run, then the rope is a compelling force.

Suppose no rope. Think of compulsion as a force.

If a dog wants to stay, then the owners demand is not a compelling force
If a dog wants to run, then the owners demand is a compelling force

Now, if the dog wants to run and feels the pressure of punishment, that is a compelling force even though the force can be overcome.

The law is not a compelling force to those that want to obey speed laws.
The law is a compelling force to those like Ann and bob (who both want to speed)

Ann chooses not to speed and does so under threat of punishment. She drives of her own free will, but the speed she drives is not of her own free will. She is compelled to drive the speed limit.

Bob feels the compelling force but overcomes the force.
 
"Compelled" is the word I would use.

Yes, that's one idea like "induced" and "motivated", but like them, "compelled" also suggests "coercion", and coercion is not the idea suggested by "influence":
compel
tr.v.
1. To force (a person) to do something

Influence here is more like a form of subversion, a subversion of somebody else's free will..

The issue of wants is important
The issue of compulsion is important

If I want to do x, then no presence of force is a presence of compulsion.

If a dog wants to stay, then the rope is not a compelling force.
If the dog wants to run, then the rope is a compelling force.

Suppose no rope. Think of compulsion as a force.

If a dog wants to stay, then the owners demand is not a compelling force
If a dog wants to run, then the owners demand is a compelling force

Now, if the dog wants to run and feels the pressure of punishment, that is a compelling force even though the force can be overcome.

The law is not a compelling force to those that want to obey speed laws.
The law is a compelling force to those like Ann and bob (who both want to speed)

Ann chooses not to speed and does so under threat of punishment. She drives of her own free will, but the speed she drives is not of her own free will. She is compelled to drive the speed limit.

Bob feels the compelling force but overcomes the force.

Yes, I agree with all that, and tried to express the same idea in a previous post (No. 7).

However, this is not specific to "influence" or to "compulsion". It also applies to coercion and to any limitation on somebody's free will.

If the dog wants to run but stays it won't be because the dog is compelled to stay. It will be because it is under the influence of its master. It will be because the influence of its master is decisive. It will be because the influence of its master is subverting the will of the dog.

This also explain why the law talks of driving "under the influence" of alcohol. Alcohol is not seen here as a physical constraint, similar to a rope or to jail. It is seen as something subverting the will of the person. The offense is not the bad driving since you're no longer driving according to your own free will. The offense is to have been drinking enough to be under the influence of alcohol while driving.
EB
 
What do you think of Galen Strawson's refutation of responsibility, EB? In a nutshell, his argument is as follows:

1. We do what we do because of the way that we are.
2. In order to be responsible for what we do, we must be responsible for the way we are.
3. To be responsible for the way we are, we must have contributed to bringing it about in some relevant way.
4. But any contribution we might have made to the way we are must have been the result of the way we were when we made the contribution (from 1).
5. Thus it is impossible to be responsible for the way that we are.
6. Thus it is impossible to be responsible for what we do.

By "responsibility" he means the robust, intentional kind that is necessary for moral agency. His argument seems to apply equally whether you accept determinism or not. Even if you believe you freely chose to do something, it still is true that you chose what you did because of antecedent conditions. Even if you brought about those antecedent conditions intentionally, your having done so would itself be rooted in prior antecedent conditions, and so on into the past until inevitably there would be an antecedent condition you did not bring about.

If I had to poke holes in Strawson's argument, I think premise 1 and maybe 2 are the most suspect, but they are arguably true if the terms are defined properly. I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, but I wondered if this was something you'd come across before.
 
What do you think of Galen Strawson's refutation of responsibility, EB? In a nutshell, his argument is as follows:

1. We do what we do because of the way that we are.
2. In order to be responsible for what we do, we must be responsible for the way we are.
3. To be responsible for the way we are, we must have contributed to bringing it about in some relevant way.
4. But any contribution we might have made to the way we are must have been the result of the way we were when we made the contribution (from 1).
5. Thus it is impossible to be responsible for the way that we are.
6. Thus it is impossible to be responsible for what we do.

By "responsibility" he means the robust, intentional kind that is necessary for moral agency. His argument seems to apply equally whether you accept determinism or not. Even if you believe you freely chose to do something, it still is true that you chose what you did because of antecedent conditions. Even if you brought about those antecedent conditions intentionally, your having done so would itself be rooted in prior antecedent conditions, and so on into the past until inevitably there would be an antecedent condition you did not bring about.

If I had to poke holes in Strawson's argument, I think premise 1 and maybe 2 are the most suspect, but they are arguably true if the terms are defined properly. I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, but I wondered if this was something you'd come across before.

Well, this seems to show that Galen Strawson's concept of a "robust, intentional kind (of responsibility) that is necessary for moral agency", as he thinks of it, doesn't really work.

He should try thinking differently about responsibility, for example as a "robust, intentional kind (of responsibility) that is necessary for moral agency.

We're actually told how to go about this, if we're prepared to face the dictionary definition of what it means to be responsible, here:
responsible
adj.
1.
a. Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust: Who is responsible while their parents are away?
b. Required to render account; answerable: The cabinet is responsible to the parliament.
2. Involving important duties, the supervision of others, or the ability to make decisions with little supervision: a responsible position within the firm.
3. Being a source or cause: Viruses are responsible for many diseases.
4.
a. Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior: At what age does a person become responsible?
b. Able to be trusted or depended upon; trustworthy or reliable: a responsible art dealer.
5. Based on or characterized by good judgment or sound thinking: responsible journalism.

I don't see how one could possibly refute responsibility as it is defined here. Somebody who's asking you to give an account of your action will do so presumably because they see you as responsible for your actions. Whether you can be held responsible in this sense could be debated within a legal framework for example. If so, at some point, a judge will just decide if they hold you responsible or not. And that's it. It's not that you are responsible in some abstract sense. You are held responsible and it's usually somebody else who will make this call.

Strawson is talking about something else. He is talking of responsibility in his argument as if it was something similar to being the causal factor of an event. And from there, it's easy to go the infinite regress route. It's been done so many times before. Easy do.

So, yes, we should follow Strawson's logic and count the concept of responsibility he's using in his argument as incoherent, ineffective, just wrong.

And then go back, if we ever left it behind, to the dictionary definition of what it means for most people to be responsible. This one seems to work, although, clearly, it's not going to stop people arguing they're not responsible. The dictionary definition works because it doesn't say we have to accept arguments about somebody not being responsible.
EB
 
What do you think of Galen Strawson's refutation of responsibility, EB? In a nutshell, his argument is as follows:

1. We do what we do because of the way that we are.
2. In order to be responsible for what we do, we must be responsible for the way we are.
3. To be responsible for the way we are, we must have contributed to bringing it about in some relevant way.
4. But any contribution we might have made to the way we are must have been the result of the way we were when we made the contribution (from 1).
5. Thus it is impossible to be responsible for the way that we are.
6. Thus it is impossible to be responsible for what we do.

By "responsibility" he means the robust, intentional kind that is necessary for moral agency. His argument seems to apply equally whether you accept determinism or not. Even if you believe you freely chose to do something, it still is true that you chose what you did because of antecedent conditions. Even if you brought about those antecedent conditions intentionally, your having done so would itself be rooted in prior antecedent conditions, and so on into the past until inevitably there would be an antecedent condition you did not bring about.

If I had to poke holes in Strawson's argument, I think premise 1 and maybe 2 are the most suspect, but they are arguably true if the terms are defined properly. I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, but I wondered if this was something you'd come across before.

Well, this seems to show that Galen Strawson's concept of a "robust, intentional kind (of responsibility) that is necessary for moral agency", as he thinks of it, doesn't really work.

He should try thinking differently about responsibility, for example as a "robust, intentional kind (of responsibility) that is necessary for moral agency.

We're actually told how to go about this, if we're prepared to face the dictionary definition of what it means to be responsible, here:
responsible
adj.
1.
a. Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust: Who is responsible while their parents are away?
b. Required to render account; answerable: The cabinet is responsible to the parliament.
2. Involving important duties, the supervision of others, or the ability to make decisions with little supervision: a responsible position within the firm.
3. Being a source or cause: Viruses are responsible for many diseases.
4.
a. Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior: At what age does a person become responsible?
b. Able to be trusted or depended upon; trustworthy or reliable: a responsible art dealer.
5. Based on or characterized by good judgment or sound thinking: responsible journalism.

I don't see how one could possibly refute responsibility as it is defined here. Somebody who's asking you to give an account of your action will do so presumably because they see you as responsible for your actions. Whether you can be held responsible in this sense could be debated within a legal framework for example. If so, at some point, a judge will just decide if they hold you responsible or not. And that's it. It's not that you are responsible in some abstract sense. You are held responsible and it's usually somebody else who will make this call.

Strawson is talking about something else. He is talking of responsibility in his argument as if it was something similar to being the causal factor of an event. And from there, it's easy to go the infinite regress route. It's been done so many times before. Easy do.

So, yes, we should follow Strawson's logic and count the concept of responsibility he's using in his argument as incoherent, ineffective, just wrong.

And then go back, if we ever left it behind, to the dictionary definition of what it means for most people to be responsible. This one seems to work, although, clearly, it's not going to stop people arguing they're not responsible. The dictionary definition works because it doesn't say we have to accept arguments about somebody not being responsible.
EB
The dictionary definitions (which one are you suggesting we use, by the way?) don't escape Strawson's dilemma, however, because the way e.g. a judge would decide to hold someone responsible--answerable, accountable, however you want to phrase it--must surely have a lot to do with that person's role in causing the outcome in question. By describing him as, say, "a responsible adult", the judge is implicitly saying the person has the ability to make rational decisions for which he can be praised or blamed, rewarded or punished. To leave someone "in charge" based on their qualities is to stake that person's reputation on whatever he is in charge of. But if the person did not cause himself to be the way he was, he could not have caused himself to be the kind of person who made the decisions he made nor to be the kind of person who could be relied upon in a crisis. There would therefore be no obvious reason to ascribe praise to him for doing something good on the basis of his rationality, maturity, etc. or to chide him for doing something wrong, appealing to "he should have known better". The fact is that he did what he did, even in spite of knowing better, according to aspects of his nature ultimately beyond his intentional control.

So, while Strawson's argument still allows us to select responsible parties in a consequence-oriented way, it does not permit any kind of personal judgement about whoever we deem responsible or not. Nobody is deserving of applause for doing something noble or being a natural leader; it's just the way they are.
 
I see free will as the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

I think this is the notion of free will most people have.

If you disagree with this, please explain why.
EB
While it's true that we have free will2 the underlying question still remains as to whether we have free will1; hence, the term is ambiguous and serves as a source of great confusion.

When I do as I please, (or don't do, yet in accordance to what I want), I am acting of my own free will. If I, instead, am compelled (constrained to do what I don't want to do OR restrained from doing what I want to do), then my actions though perhaps still of my own free will1, they are not of my own free will2.

Compulsion (whether in the form of constraint to or restraint from) is not to always be considered a force so strong that they cannot be overcome. A child being told (and in fear of punishment) to sit yet who wants to get up is being restrained and therefore compelled to do other than he pleases. He is not sitting of his own free will2.

The question, still, is not when we are or are not acting of our own free will2. The answer to THAT question is solved by knowing the two important things: wants and presence of compulsion.
 
The dictionary definitions (which one are you suggesting we use, by the way?)

Number 4.a.: Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior.

It is the only one applicable in this context.

The dictionary definitions (which one are you suggesting we use, by the way?) don't escape Strawson's dilemma, however, because the way e.g. a judge would decide to hold someone responsible--answerable, accountable, however you want to phrase it--must surely have a lot to do with that person's role in causing the outcome in question.

If that was anything like a conclusive argument, we would have judges throwing up their hands saying they can"t hold anybody responsible for their actions.

Do you see that happening at all?

But if the person did not cause himself to be the way he was, he could not have caused himself to be the kind of person who made the decisions he made nor to be the kind of person who could be relied upon in a crisis. There would therefore be no obvious reason to ascribe praise to him for doing something good on the basis of his rationality, maturity, etc. or to chide him for doing something wrong, appealing to "he should have known better". The fact is that he did what he did, even in spite of knowing better, according to aspects of his nature ultimately beyond his intentional control.

You're merely re-hashing Strawson's argument. I already agreed it proved Strawson's concept of responsibility to be incoherent, wrong, useless.

So, while Strawson's argument still allows us to select responsible parties in a consequence-oriented way, it does not permit any kind of personal judgement about whoever we deem responsible or not. Nobody is deserving of applause for doing something noble or being a natural leader; it's just the way they are.

I have yet to see any judge paying attention to Strawson's argument. If the judge deems the accused responsible, that's it.
EB
 
I see free will as the ability most people have, at least to some extent, to make independent choices, i.e. choices not coerced, limited or influenced by other people.

I think this is the notion of free will most people have.

If you disagree with this, please explain why.
EB
While it's true that we have free will2 the underlying question still remains as to whether we have free will1

I was talking about free will.

And I have no idea what free will2 is and what free will1 is.
EB
 
Back
Top Bottom