Eldarion Lathria
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They rolled into West Africa, and enslaved millions of blacks too. But that's just one of those things, isn't it?
Eldarion Lathria
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The Middle East and the West: A Brief Historical Timeline.
- Thread starter AthenaAwakened
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Eldarion Lathria
Cheerful Charlie
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Well you forgot to mention the invasion of Spain, the invasion of Sicily, Southern Italy, repeated attacks on the Balkans, Greek islands, Vienna, and centuries of tolerated islamic piracy and slave raids in the Mediterranean. Not to mention Turkish bad behavior in the Holy Lands that caused the crusades to happen.
"We wasn't doing nuthin' and then the Christians attacked us for no reason".
How many times have I seen that from some Moslem on the net somewhere in some form or the other.
ronburgundy
Contributor
Without this history of an external threat posed by the West's actions, the Arab world would likely be less Muslim and more secular, and thus less likely to commit the acts of violence (or acts of oppression of their own people) that the ideas and values of Islam promotes.
untermensche
Contributor
?
What people are saying is that when you take a huge sledge hammer and smash a region of the world there will be effects.
When you support a dictatorship that uses religious fundamentalism to maintain control of it's population and spreads that fundamentalism there will be effects.
When you destroy a nations democracy, like the US and Britain did in Iran, there will be effects.
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
There has been terror from Moslems since the partition of India. Remembe too, the war between East and west Pakistan leading to 3 million dead that India stepped in and ended. Kashmir. Also recall Iran threatening to invade Afghanistan over Taliban attacks on Shiite Hazaras. There has been lots of bad Islamic terrorism, hate and near wars going on the West had little to do with that I suspect would have still fomented some terrorism against the West. Baathist vs Islamic literalists would have happened without us. One wonders what history would have been like had the Turks taken Vienna.
No, without that history there would be no West for Arab Muslims to terrorize. They would have conquered it, slaughtered the populations and converted the survivors.
untermensche
Contributor
The modern history really begins immediately after WWI, which occupied the West to a degree.
The British moved in to control oil and were ruthless.
And the West has sought to control the region ever since.
These terrorist groups like ISIS are not the product of warfare long ago.
They are a product of the US attack and destruction of Iraq.
AthenaAwakened
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When?
A good example of why I no longer pay attention to NPR.
"held the Holy Land for centuries"--means they had seized it. You can't call one conquest ok and the other bad.
So they throw a tantrum because their ill-gotten gains were taken away?
I disagree. Without western intervention their atrocities would be targeted at other Muslims. They're targeting us because they have realized we aren't going to sit back and let their nutters take control of the world.
TSwizzle
I am unburdened by what has been.
Definitely.
maxparrish
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Here's the timeline Athena did not include:
In Mecca, Muhammad the crackpot merchant is visited by an angel - he discovered that is a prophet and messenger of Allah. At first he is accepted as the village loon, but he grows annoying with his hell fire preaching and demands of the Pagans to change their ways.
622 AD, the crackpot figures out that his safety is in jeopardy and moves from Mecca to Medina. He and his followers are welcomed by the local Pagan and Jewish tribes there.
From his new base in Medina, Muhammad is short on cash. He sends his peace-loving followers out to plunder the merchant caravans of the Pagan Arabs. In response, the Pagans began guarding their caravans with armed soldiers.
624 AD, the Muslims attacked and defeated a heavily guarded merchant caravan and took many of the pagans captive, this incident is known as the Battle of Badr and was the first major battle in the Muslim conquest of Arabia.
624-628 AD, Muhammad wages war from Medina against Pagan and Jewish Arab tribes, expanding his budding mini-empire. Muhammad's power and influence grew, so Muhammad decided to expel his hosts, the first two tribes from Medina (the Banu Qaynuqa in 624 AD and the Banu Nadir in 625 AD) and then he massacred the final tribe (the Banu Qurayza in 627 AD).
630 AD, Muhammad conquers his home town of Mecca and over the next two years he sends his armies all over Western Arabia to crush the remaining Pagan tribes, as well as Jewish and Christian towns.
632 AD, Allah is pleased, so Muhammad dies. After his death, a series of Caliphs (Islamic leaders), the closest of Muhammad's companions continue warring and aggressive territorial expansion. Abu Bakr, one of Muhammad's father in laws suppresses a rebellion in Arabia that had been started by various Arab tribes that had renounced their conversion to Islam after the death of Muhammad, known as the Wars of Apostasy.
Abu-Bakr begins the invasion of other lands, that of the Byzantine Christian Empire of the Mediterranean, and the Sassanid Empire of Persia. Both of these empires were in a weak state having been in almost continuous war with each other for an entire century and were unable to mount much effective resistance.
634 AD - Abu Bakr dies. Umar, who spent 17 years at Muhammad's side takes charge. During the Caliphate of Umar, Muslim armies conquered almost the entire Middle East, including the Levant, Egypt, and much of Persia, the rest of Persia was conquered under the reigns of the two subsequent Rashidun Caliphs (Uttman & Ali).(see map 4 - 661 AD)
661 AD - The Rashidun Caliphate comes to an end in a civil war, and a new dynasty emerges from this civil war known as the Umayyad Caliphate.
The Umayyad Caliphate, the Muslim armies reaches the Maghreb, what Arabs call Northwest Africa, they were met with stiff resistance. At this time, control of Northwest Africa was divided amongst the Byzantines, who controlled the coastal area around the city of Carthage, and the native Berber peoples, who controlled the interior and the coastal area of Morocco.
The City of Carthage falls to the Muslims, who then move on to wage war against the Berbers. Berber resistance to the Muslim conquest focused around a Berber Queen named Kahina, she led the Berbers in a number of successful battles against the Muslims.
Then the Byzantine Emperor Leontius sent his navy to recapture Carthage from the Muslims in a stunning surprise attack. The Muslims were forced to retreat to Kairouan and regroup, in 698 AD they besieged Carthage for a second time and captured the city. As punishment for the city's stiff resistance to Islam, the Muslims destroyed Carthage for the second time in it's history, just as the Romans had done in 146 BC. With Carthage finally destroyed, the Muslims were able to turn their attention back to the Berber resistance, in 702 AD, the Muslims defeated Kahina once and for all at the Battle of Tabarka. (See map 6 - 710 AD)
Then, around 720 the Islamic Caliphate, the Muslim Arabs cross the Straits of Gibraltar and invade Europe. Visigothic Spain was easily overrun in just a few years, but the Arabs were stopped by the Franks at the battle of Tours (France) in 733 AD. Thus most of Europe was saved from Muslim rule and would remain Christian.
In 300 years much of the western world Christianity spread by peaceful conversion. But in 100 years, Islam, in holy wars (and one civil war) conquered all of Arabia and then conquered as far west as Spain and as far east as Afghanistan. The Islamic Caliphate became the largest empire the world had yet known. Of the 5 Christian Patriarchates (the 5 great urban centers of Christianity in the 6th-7th centuries AD), 3 of them were under Islamic rule (Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch), with only Rome and Constantinople remaining Christian.
"Without this history" of wars lauched against Christians, Jews, and Pagens...would Athena's question have any relevancy?
In Mecca, Muhammad the crackpot merchant is visited by an angel - he discovered that is a prophet and messenger of Allah. At first he is accepted as the village loon, but he grows annoying with his hell fire preaching and demands of the Pagans to change their ways.
622 AD, the crackpot figures out that his safety is in jeopardy and moves from Mecca to Medina. He and his followers are welcomed by the local Pagan and Jewish tribes there.
From his new base in Medina, Muhammad is short on cash. He sends his peace-loving followers out to plunder the merchant caravans of the Pagan Arabs. In response, the Pagans began guarding their caravans with armed soldiers.
624 AD, the Muslims attacked and defeated a heavily guarded merchant caravan and took many of the pagans captive, this incident is known as the Battle of Badr and was the first major battle in the Muslim conquest of Arabia.
624-628 AD, Muhammad wages war from Medina against Pagan and Jewish Arab tribes, expanding his budding mini-empire. Muhammad's power and influence grew, so Muhammad decided to expel his hosts, the first two tribes from Medina (the Banu Qaynuqa in 624 AD and the Banu Nadir in 625 AD) and then he massacred the final tribe (the Banu Qurayza in 627 AD).
630 AD, Muhammad conquers his home town of Mecca and over the next two years he sends his armies all over Western Arabia to crush the remaining Pagan tribes, as well as Jewish and Christian towns.
632 AD, Allah is pleased, so Muhammad dies. After his death, a series of Caliphs (Islamic leaders), the closest of Muhammad's companions continue warring and aggressive territorial expansion. Abu Bakr, one of Muhammad's father in laws suppresses a rebellion in Arabia that had been started by various Arab tribes that had renounced their conversion to Islam after the death of Muhammad, known as the Wars of Apostasy.
Abu-Bakr begins the invasion of other lands, that of the Byzantine Christian Empire of the Mediterranean, and the Sassanid Empire of Persia. Both of these empires were in a weak state having been in almost continuous war with each other for an entire century and were unable to mount much effective resistance.
634 AD - Abu Bakr dies. Umar, who spent 17 years at Muhammad's side takes charge. During the Caliphate of Umar, Muslim armies conquered almost the entire Middle East, including the Levant, Egypt, and much of Persia, the rest of Persia was conquered under the reigns of the two subsequent Rashidun Caliphs (Uttman & Ali).(see map 4 - 661 AD)
661 AD - The Rashidun Caliphate comes to an end in a civil war, and a new dynasty emerges from this civil war known as the Umayyad Caliphate.
The Umayyad Caliphate, the Muslim armies reaches the Maghreb, what Arabs call Northwest Africa, they were met with stiff resistance. At this time, control of Northwest Africa was divided amongst the Byzantines, who controlled the coastal area around the city of Carthage, and the native Berber peoples, who controlled the interior and the coastal area of Morocco.
The City of Carthage falls to the Muslims, who then move on to wage war against the Berbers. Berber resistance to the Muslim conquest focused around a Berber Queen named Kahina, she led the Berbers in a number of successful battles against the Muslims.
Then the Byzantine Emperor Leontius sent his navy to recapture Carthage from the Muslims in a stunning surprise attack. The Muslims were forced to retreat to Kairouan and regroup, in 698 AD they besieged Carthage for a second time and captured the city. As punishment for the city's stiff resistance to Islam, the Muslims destroyed Carthage for the second time in it's history, just as the Romans had done in 146 BC. With Carthage finally destroyed, the Muslims were able to turn their attention back to the Berber resistance, in 702 AD, the Muslims defeated Kahina once and for all at the Battle of Tabarka. (See map 6 - 710 AD)
Then, around 720 the Islamic Caliphate, the Muslim Arabs cross the Straits of Gibraltar and invade Europe. Visigothic Spain was easily overrun in just a few years, but the Arabs were stopped by the Franks at the battle of Tours (France) in 733 AD. Thus most of Europe was saved from Muslim rule and would remain Christian.
In 300 years much of the western world Christianity spread by peaceful conversion. But in 100 years, Islam, in holy wars (and one civil war) conquered all of Arabia and then conquered as far west as Spain and as far east as Afghanistan. The Islamic Caliphate became the largest empire the world had yet known. Of the 5 Christian Patriarchates (the 5 great urban centers of Christianity in the 6th-7th centuries AD), 3 of them were under Islamic rule (Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch), with only Rome and Constantinople remaining Christian.
"Without this history" of wars lauched against Christians, Jews, and Pagens...would Athena's question have any relevancy?
Last edited:
untermensche
Contributor
Holy shit.
700AD?
You might as well talk about the happenings on Mars.
They have as much relevance today.
700AD?
You might as well talk about the happenings on Mars.
They have as much relevance today.
maxparrish
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Excuse us? Athena's timeline begins with "two centuries" of the crusades. Sorry, tell the whole story or don't tell it at all.
untermensche
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The modern history of the ME begins with the discovery of oil.
That is the rational starting point when you look at present circumstances.
And what we see after that is abuse of the region in many ways by those trying to control the oil and gain the wealth and power that comes from that.
Even ISIS.
What are they doing? Selling oil.
Talking about 700AD might be interesting history, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the present day circumstances in the ME.
bilby
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Before a time classified as a Planck time, 10-43 seconds, all of the four fundamental forces are presumed to have been unified into one force. All matter, energy, space and time are presumed to have exploded outward from the original singularity. Nothing is known of this period.
In the era around one Planck time, it is projected by present modeling of the fundamental forces that the gravity force begins to differentiate from the other three forces. This is the first of the spontaneous symmetry breaks which lead to the four observed types of interactions in the present universe.
At a time around 10-36 seconds, present models project a separation of the strong force, one of the four fundamental forces. Before this time the forces other than gravity would be unified in what is called the grand unification. The spontaneous symmetry breaking which occurs in this era would distinguish as a separate interaction the force which would hold nuclei together in later eras. Though the strong force is distinct from gravity and the electroweak force in this era, the energy level is still too high for the strong force to hold protons and neutrons together, so that the universe is still a "sizzling sea of quarks".
Triggered by the symmetry breaking that separates off the strong force, models suggest an extraordinary inflationary phase in the era 10-36 seconds to 10-32 seconds. More expansion is presumed to have occurred in this instant than in the entire 14 billion years since.
The inflationary epoch may have expanded the universe by a factor 1020 or even 1030 times, in this incredibly brief time; which makes the subsequent expansion of the Muslim controlled area into Arabia, North Africa, Asia, and Southern Europe look pretty sluggish by comparison.
Or didn't you want to go quite that far back?
whichphilosophy
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The elements of such acts were always present. However the West so wished to remove kept the lid on this. Western meddling created the vacuum to fill the void. As a result these fanatics have been able to set up autonomous areas and even penetrate Europe and the US. If we choose to change a regime, capture its army as intact as possible so that the areas are still under control. Instigate democratic reforms but with the presence of an army. A lot of people died in the various wars and in Iraq as a result of the Oil for Food program. This in itself was not sufficient without the anarchy caused by the removal of the various regime's structure of control.
Probably complete subjugation of Europe by 1200 AD.
AthenaAwakened
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Without this history, do Arab Muslims commit acts of terror against the West?
- - - Updated - - -
how?
Muslims and enlightened atheist progressives seem to subscribe to the theory that once Muslims have conquered it, it becomes "muslim lands" and is theirs forever.
To suggest otherwise is a great grievance, though perhaps not so great as drawing cartoons.