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"The new Feminism is a war against women" - Brendan O'Neil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_feminism

New feminism is a philosophy which emphasizes a belief in an integral complementarity of men and women, rather than the superiority of men over women or women over men.[1]

New feminism, as a form of difference feminism, supports the idea that men and women have different strengths, perspectives, and roles, while advocating for the equal worth and dignity of both sexes. Among its basic concepts are that the most important differences are those that are biological rather than cultural. New Feminism holds that women should be valued in their role as child bearers, both culturally and economically, while not being viewed as a "home maker" in the broader sense of the meaning.[citation needed] Its main aim is to promote the idea that women are individuals with equal worth as men; and that in social, economic and legal senses they should be equal, while accepting the natural differences between the sexes.

The rest of the article describes how New Feminism is a movement among Catholic women who "agree that they are equal to men in their professional and social capacities, yet New Feminists are still able to embrace their physical differences as a women, stressing the importance as the role of the mother and house keeper in the family". That doesn't sound like what O'Neill is talking about.

Is he talking about Third Wave feminism? If so, can you provide the names of prominent Third Wave Feminists or link to a magazine they publish or something? I'd like to see for myself what they are saying and not just rely on guys like O'Neill to describe it.
 
What do you make of Brendan O'Neil's stance that the new Feminism is not a war against men (he thinks very little of MRAs) but a war against women. He feels that the new Feminism infantalizes women and expresses open contempt for women in a way that you never hear from men. He says he sees a lot in the new Feminism that he sees in Victorian attitudes from 150 years ago towards women.

Skip to the 4:00 mark in this video and give it a listen. I am curious what you will all say of it. Do you dismiss O'Neil as misogynist, or does he have a point?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcLN2U_HJp8[/youtube]

I can't listen to this at work, but if the bolded part is true, I find the point utterly laughable. The things I have heard men say when in the exclusive company of other men, and thought it "normal" and even unremarkable to think so casually of dismissing women as non-entities and harridans, or of blatantly using them for sex and labor, or mocking them for thinking they understand politics or money...

The new Feminism must be pretty freaking bad if it so much as holds a candle to that deep-set, instinctive misogyny. But then, I've never met one of these so-called New Feminists. Where do they live?
 
Good find, ruby, and yes he does seem to be as you say.

That of course doesn't diminish his point in the video or make that perspective less interesting......(snip)......Again, the writer has a point.


If you want to dig through the crap to try to find and emphasise an interesting and valid point of some sort, I'm sure you will find one to highlight. There usually is one in amongst the garbage, possibly for most cases put by most people.

Have you started a similar thread with a video of Chanty Binx though, and sought out an interesting and valid point to highlight? ;)
 
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By the time (17:02) Brendan O'Neill listed environmentalism among several other movements as factors "which actually represent an attack on progressive ideas and an attack on enlightened ideas", I gave up trying to find something about which I can agree with him, and slotted him in the pigeonhole along others (Milo Yiannopoulos, for example) not worth even listening to. I did give him more than 17 minutes. In retrospect that turned out to be more than 17 minutes too many. Ruby Sparks's description of him (or them) as 'arsehole with a big mouth' fits perfectly.

Not content with that clanger, O'Neill kept digging. (18:04) "The worst thing that the second wave of feminism under Germaine Greer and others did was to promote the idea that the personal is political." Sorry, Brendan, denying the inseparability of the personal and the political is the most ridiculous attempt at establishing NOMAs I have encountered. If we had a personal sphere that is separate from the political, we'd have neither individuals nor societies.
 
Have you started a similar thread with a video of Chanty Binx though, and sought out an interesting and valid point to highlight? ;)

I actually tried that. It was my first reaction when hearing about her initially. But I couldn't get passed the screaming and nasty attitude and obvious hostility towards men. I can't get through a woman hating screaming fest either.

This guy, if he is hostile towards women, is a lot less obvious about it and a lot more civil. He may be insidious but I can manage that. Like how I can still watch and see valid points in people like Cenk Uyger and Michael Moore and yes, even Milo and Tommy Robinson.

If people speak civilly and without violence and screaming, I can listen and I give the devil his/her due when a good point is made.
 
I think his best points are essentially the soft bigotry of low expectations thought, and how trigger warnings, safe spaces, stuff about manspreading and mansplaining, etc are attempts to infantilize women. As is the stuff they do in women's studies about the "male gaze" etc. As is the stuff we see occassionally about holding men but not women responsible and having agency in various contexts.

He is saying essentially that early feminists were about women being equal and tough (anything you can do, I can do, better) and that the new feminism is about them being weak and in need of special protection. He harkens the latter back to Victorian times when they were considered the "weaker" or "fairer" sex.

He takes the opposite stance from people like Jordan Peterson about gender roles. Peterson would say women get paid less on average partly because they are less assertive. O'Neil calls that wrong and feels women can be just as assertive as men. He says we don't need to change workplaces to make them more "women friendly" etc and women should fight it out like the men do and like many women are.

Its interesting seeing one like Peterson and one like O'Neil clash on that point.
 
I think his best points are essentially the soft bigotry of low expectations thought, and how trigger warnings, safe spaces, stuff about manspreading and mansplaining, etc are attempts to infantilize women. As is the stuff they do in women's studies about the "male gaze" etc. As is the stuff we see occassionally about holding men but not women responsible and having agency in various contexts.

He is saying essentially that early feminists were about women being equal and tough (anything you can do, I can do, better) and that the new feminism is about them being weak and in need of special protection. He harkens the latter back to Victorian times when they were considered the "weaker" or "fairer" sex.

He takes the opposite stance from people like Jordan Peterson about gender roles. Peterson would say women get paid less on average partly because they are less assertive. O'Neil calls that wrong and feels women can be just as assertive as men. He says we don't need to change workplaces to make them more "women friendly" etc and women should fight it out like the men do and like many women are.

Its interesting seeing one like Peterson and one like O'Neil clash on that point.

 
I think his best points are essentially the soft bigotry of low expectations thought, and how trigger warnings
I've had male students ask me to avoid triggers, most of them veterans who fought wars in situations that would make you piss your pants with fear, and kept going anyway to the point of losing limbs in the name of your civil liberties. You calling them weak, because they asked for a simple courtesy?

Or is it just women who are "weak" because they were brave enough to go up to a professor and ask for what they need, regardless of the backlash they know will most likely result? Believe me, there are plenty of professors who are like you, quick to belittle anyone who dares ask for help with something.

If suffering in silence unnecessarily because you lacked the assertiveness to ask for a change is a "masculine" trait, I'm not sure it's one worth keeping. No wonder so many men are screwed up in the head.

safe spaces
The cost of masculinity is being actively in danger for no reason? Again, as a man with a brain I say no thank you to that stupid idea.

stuff about manspreading
Are you suggesting that "real men" would just sort of put up with being constantly sexually harassed and talked down to? I assure you, with the weight of experience, that the standard braindead male response to a gay man coming up and "posing" at them in a suggestive way is not "politely, silently, demurely ignore it".

and mansplaining
Protesting being talked down to like you are a child is infantilizing? Someone who is free from infantilization gets talked down to and likes it? Are you a child yourself, or is this really your thought process?

are attempts to infantilize women.
So you're claiming that protesting infantilization (which is what mansplaining is) is infantilizing, while excusing from criticism those who directly try to infantilize women, by talking to them like they are five?

As is the stuff they do in women's studies about the "male gaze" etc.
That is a simple observation about the media. Anyone who works in it knows they pull shit for the gratification of male viewers, while avoiding doing things that would make them uncomfortable. Recognizing the blinkeringly obvious is somehow infantilizing?

As is the stuff we see occassionally about holding men but not women responsible
No one says this.

and having agency in various contexts.
It's weak to demand agency? Having the ability to act is itself somehow weakening?

He is saying essentially that early feminists were about women being equal and tough (anything you can do, I can do, better) and that the new feminism is about them being weak and in need of special protection. He harkens the latter back to Victorian times when they were considered the "weaker" or "fairer" sex.
So if women were "equal and tough", they would shut up, whereas demanding change on issues of concern, by force if necessary, makes one weak and in need of protection? On what planet would this make logical sense?

He takes the opposite stance from people like Jordan Peterson about gender roles. Peterson would say women get paid less on average partly because they are less assertive. O'Neil calls that wrong and feels women can be just as assertive as men. He says we don't need to change workplaces to make them more "women friendly" etc and women should fight it out like the men do and like many women are.
Of course they can be. The point is that they shouldn't have to be. Whose stupid rule is it that one gender should be forced to imitate meaningless, insulting caricatures of the other just to "earn" equal pay and positions?

Also, he doesn't know jack about early feminism.

And in any case, you're asking for two things at once, for women to be more assertive, and also less noisy. Or should they only be assertive about things you approve of, rather than what is actually on their mind?
 
He instead points to the progress Feminism has made (and identifies himself as one of them) and then goes on to claim that the "new Feminists" are undoing that by considering women fragile and without agency. I wouldn't go as far as he does in comparing it to Victorian times, but he does have a point. It reminds me of the "soft bigotry of low expectations" point I've seen made by various people over the years.

I've seen a lot of this in regards to the victims of discrimination in general, not just feminism.
 
Are the feminists who are hassling Jennifer Lawrence an example of the new Feminists?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/jennifer-lawrence-calls-sexist-coverage-versace-dress-she-wore-cold-weather-1086868?utm_source=twitter

Jennifer Lawrence, an adult woman, was forced to defend her adult woman choices after media coverage questioned the actress for wearing a sexy — albeit, not very cozy — dress in cold weather while promoting her new flick, Red Sparrow, in London on Tuesday afternoon.

Seems like they're basically saying JL had no agency in what dress she wore and it was the Patriarchy that was forcing her to dress like a sex object.

JL has a different take on it:

Wow. I don't really know where to get started on this "Jennifer Lawrence wearing a revealing dress in the cold" controversy. This is not only utterly ridiculous, I am extremely offended. That Versace dress was fabulous, you think I'm going to cover that gorgeous dress up with a coat and a scarf? I was outside for 5 minutes. I would have stood in the snow for that dress because I love fashion and that was my choice.
This is sexist, this is ridiculous, this is not feminism. Over- reacting about everything someone says or does, creating controversy over silly innocuous things such as what I choose to wear or not wear, is not moving us forward. It's creating silly distractions from real issues. Get a grip people. Everything you see me wear is my choice. And if I want to be cold THATS MY CHOICE TOO!
 
Are the feminists who are hassling Jennifer Lawrence an example of the new Feminists?

What "feminists" were hassling Jennifer? It looks like they were hassling the director of the photo shoot. I mean, maybe they just told the actors "wear whatever you like today for the shoot, we'll use it, whatever" but fans are hardly unreasonable for not assuming this. I mean, that isn't normally how photo shoots work.

Are any of your evil feminists still upset with her now that she has clarified that she (apparently?) picked out her own dress?

This was the photo in question:

921237316.jpg

The visual difference is striking. Men wear coats, women wear slinky dresses. Even if this was a complete coincidence and no one told any of the actors how to dress, it still says something about Hollywood expectations that should not be surprising to anyone. None of the men thought, or would have thought to come, dressed in such a fashion.

Is that because men just don't like to look beautiful? Or are different audience expectations possibly at play? I don't think you have to hate or attack Lawrence to ask these questions.
 
Are the feminists who are hassling Jennifer Lawrence an example of the new Feminists?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/jennifer-lawrence-calls-sexist-coverage-versace-dress-she-wore-cold-weather-1086868?utm_source=twitter

Jennifer Lawrence, an adult woman, was forced to defend her adult woman choices after media coverage questioned the actress for wearing a sexy — albeit, not very cozy — dress in cold weather while promoting her new flick, Red Sparrow, in London on Tuesday afternoon.

Seems like they're basically saying JL had no agency in what dress she wore and it was the Patriarchy that was forcing her to dress like a sex object.

JL has a different take on it:

Wow. I don't really know where to get started on this "Jennifer Lawrence wearing a revealing dress in the cold" controversy. This is not only utterly ridiculous, I am extremely offended. That Versace dress was fabulous, you think I'm going to cover that gorgeous dress up with a coat and a scarf? I was outside for 5 minutes. I would have stood in the snow for that dress because I love fashion and that was my choice.
This is sexist, this is ridiculous, this is not feminism. Over- reacting about everything someone says or does, creating controversy over silly innocuous things such as what I choose to wear or not wear, is not moving us forward. It's creating silly distractions from real issues. Get a grip people. Everything you see me wear is my choice. And if I want to be cold THATS MY CHOICE TOO!

Well, I have to admit that l would have thought the same thing if I'd seen this picture before I read her remarks:

GettyImages-921220354-1024x640.jpg

Four men wearing layers of clothing, coats over sweaters, and a woman wearing a slip of a dress on what appears to be a chilly day, there to promote a movie? The guys look like they're going to grab a few hot dogs and a Pepsi for lunch. She looks like she's expecting duck confit and champagne. Did she not get the 'dress casual' memo? It looks to me like she's dressed the way the studio and her agent want her to appear, not in a way that makes sense considering the weather or the company.

She says it was her choice and that's fine. She can be as cold and uncomfortable as she likes. It's probably good for self promotional purposes, anyway. I'm just glad for her sake that, contrary to her statement, she did wear a coat for at least part of her outdoor excursion:

GettyImages-921226582-683x1024.jpg

I'm not even going to talk about those shoes. But I kinda wish she'd worn the boots that other gal has on. Now that would have been a fashion statement!
 
Wow. I don't really know where to get started on this "Jennifer Lawrence wearing a revealing dress in the cold" controversy. This is not only utterly ridiculous, I am extremely offended. That Versace dress was fabulous, you think I'm going to cover that gorgeous dress up with a coat and a scarf? I was outside for 5 minutes. I would have stood in the snow for that dress because I love fashion and that was my choice.
This is sexist, this is ridiculous, this is not feminism. Over- reacting about everything someone says or does, creating controversy over silly innocuous things such as what I choose to wear or not wear, is not moving us forward. It's creating silly distractions from real issues. Get a grip people. Everything you see me wear is my choice. And if I want to be cold THATS MY CHOICE TOO!

But Jennifer, you are setting an example and making this fashionable and pressuring women everywhere to live up to this unrealistic expectation because men may find it pleasing! You are responsible for their poor choices because ... oh wait.. can we look to them to make their own decisions and be who they want to be and dress how they want to dress without presuming you and these men made them do it? Why yes, I think we can.
 
He is saying essentially that early feminists were about women being equal and tough (anything you can do, I can do, better) and that the new feminism is about them being weak and in need of special protection. He harkens the latter back to Victorian times when they were considered the "weaker" or "fairer" sex.
So if you want soldiers and cops and guards, you are a weakling and a wimp?
 
So if you want soldiers and cops and guards, you are a weakling and a wimp?

Its not so much "if you want it" as "we presume you need it". Apparently high powered high status women can't even make their own fashion choices anymore without these new feminists leaping to the presumption that they were forced to wear a particular outfit.
 
Wow. I don't really know where to get started on this "Jennifer Lawrence wearing a revealing dress in the cold" controversy. This is not only utterly ridiculous, I am extremely offended. That Versace dress was fabulous, you think I'm going to cover that gorgeous dress up with a coat and a scarf? I was outside for 5 minutes. I would have stood in the snow for that dress because I love fashion and that was my choice.
This is sexist, this is ridiculous, this is not feminism. Over- reacting about everything someone says or does, creating controversy over silly innocuous things such as what I choose to wear or not wear, is not moving us forward. It's creating silly distractions from real issues. Get a grip people. Everything you see me wear is my choice. And if I want to be cold THATS MY CHOICE TOO!

But Jennifer, you are setting an example and making this fashionable and pressuring women everywhere to live up to this unrealistic expectation because men may find it pleasing! You are responsible for their poor choices because ... oh wait.. can we look to them to make their own decisions and be who they want to be and dress how they want to dress without presuming you and these men made them do it? Why yes, I think we can.

But Jennifer, you look like a dumbass. And since no one thought you were a dumbass, we all wondered why you'd make such a silly, dumbass decision when you were picking out clothes to wear to the outdoor photo shoot. All of the guys look smart enough to wear a coat when it's cold outside. Why don't you?

What's that? It's a smart business move to show off your body at every opportunity so you can score leading roles in movies and maybe get paid almost as much as the guys? You think it makes you look like a strong, confident woman, and besides, you like the dress? Well, I suppose you have a good reason or two. But I suspect you also did it because that's how the movie producers and your agent wanted you to dress for the publicity pictures, weather be damned.


ETA: If you really would stand in the snow for that dress, come on up to Alaska for a photo shoot with the University students. At least then everyone will know you thought it was fun. Just be sure to wear appropriate footwear.

images.jpg
 
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What "feminists" were hassling Jennifer?

Even if it were the case, let's assume, that some people self-identifying as some brand of feminism criticised JL, I don't see where the supposed infanticizing comes in. I get that it's supposed to be there simply because some people tell others what they should and shouldn't do, but how is that infanticizing? People tell her she's wrong and she tells them where to get off. I'm seeing a healthy, robust exchange of differences on complicated issues. It'd be the equivalent of me saying to someone they're a fool for believing in god and them telling me I'm a fool not to. What, are we then infanticizing each other? They're telling me what to do, right? They must think I have no agency of my own. We must both be patronising each other. I mean, it annoys me if the chairperson of The Fawcett Society says that if I support equality for women I'm in fact a feminist, but only because I think she's wrong, not because I think she's infantizising me.

Similar thing with porn. Some feminists are against it (it's demeaning and weakening) and others are for it (it's empowering).

Now, suppose I step in and say that the first feminists, the anti-porn ones, are trying to tell women what they should and shouldn't do, that they're infringing women's freedoms and choices. Maybe that's true. But what are my motives? Do I really have the advancement of women in society at heart, or do I just not want my porn or my pics of JL's cleavage and legs to be taken off the airwaves?

Personally, I wouldn't trust Brendan O'Neill, and others like him, to sit the right way on a toilet. Ditto for the guy at the start of the OP video who felt it was obnoxious that as he saw it, some feminists infanticize women. I accept and agree that there may, in principle, be a point, but I'm not necessarily buying where it's coming from.

In this case, I would broadly agree with the critics of JL's clothing in that photo. And I'm not any sort of feminist, New or otherwise, and I don't think I'm infanticizing Jennifer Lawrence or anyone else. Are the other critics 'New Feminists' or are they just people (possibly even feminists) who have an issue with something?
 
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Have you started a similar thread with a video of Chanty Binx though, and sought out an interesting and valid point to highlight? ;)

I actually tried that. It was my first reaction when hearing about her initially.

Really? You started a thread with a video of Chanty Blix and said that she made a good point in it?
 
A mansplaining video on feminism

That is adorable.

You won't always get me agreeing about whether a guy opining on feminism is or isn't mansplaining (and in this case, he's saying at least some things that some feminists or at least women are saying, even if with less garbage attached) but with this guy....well, if you listen to or read his opinions on a fairly broad range of topics you start to notice a pattern. They're pretty much all quasi-eloquent-eque defences of conservative status quos and/or libertarianism. Nothing wrong with that in principle, I suppose, but in each case he selectively takes an aspect of...whatever progressive cause or movement he's criticising.....and essentially uses it as a straw man, because he (a) treats it 'as if' it defined or represented the movement and (b) draws unwarranted conclusions from it. As in the title of that OP video.
 
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