The New Testament as a guide for living for atheists

[No Robots]

I was invited to start a thread on this subject.

The invitation proposed the following discussion points:

BTW, do you fornicate? Fortification is definitely out according to the NT.

I do look at women with lust, which is adultery.

The Sermon On The Mount says the meek shall inherit the Earth, are you meek? Do you follow the Sermon On The Mount?

I am meek with regard to submission to the voice of the active, dynamic power of thought within me, what Constantin Brunner calls the Cogitant. This voice drives me to wage battle against those who ignore that voice within themselves, and who counsel others to do likewise.

Gospel Jesus reinforced Jewish prophets and Mosaic Law, in other words Leviticus. Is Leviticus a guide for modern living?

Leviticus applies to the regulation of the state and its cult. There is a war in Judaism between the official cult and prophetic insight. Jesus belongs to the prophetic stream and is at war with the official cult. In his view, there is no distinction between the prophets and the law. The law properly understood is the teaching of how to live in keeping with prophetic insight. The official cult does not understand that all law must exist within the bounds of prophetic insight. Thus Jesus dismisses and condemns the petty legalism of the representatives of the official cult.

Not for gays and women.

Women are strikingly empowered in the New Testament, as Amy-Jill Levine makes clear:

[T]he Gospels tell us about women’s substantial rights: owning homes, having use of their own property, having freedom of travel, worshipping in synagogues and the Jerusalem Temple, and so on. Women did not join Jesus because Judaism oppressed them, and the Jewish women who followed him did not cease to be Jews.-- Amy-Jill Levine

There is very little specifically on homosexuality in the Bible, but we can surmise that the attitude is generally hostile. Well, so what? Do homosexuals need validation from everywhere? Let them go ahead and lead their lives as they wish. It seems, though, that everyone with a sex kink wants some kind of moral backing. Look at swinging Dick Carrier, trying to convince everyone (his ex-wife?) that fucking around is where it's at, baby.

Not for those who think independently.

Jesus is continually thinking independently of those around him. He is a model of independent thought. He demands that Judaism conform to his inner voice, and not that his inner voice conform to the Judaism of the priests.

Emancipation for whom?

Emancipation for all those who wish to submit to the Cogitant within them.

 

[TomC]

I do look at women with lust, which is adultery.

So many things to discuss.

I'll start here at the beginning. If just looking is adultery, then why is adultery a moral issue? It doesn't hurt anyone in any way. Where's the problem, provided you can keep your hands to yourself. Provided you don't mess things up for your wife.

Provided you can behave like a grown up with functional ethics.

I'm gay. I've never looked at a woman with lust. Ever. Does that mean God made me immune to the sin of adultery?
Tom

 

[No Robots]

Here is the passage:

You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Thoughts govern our actions. What is thought wrongly is lived wrongly. To discipline our thought is far more important than to discipline our bodies. Sexual energy is one of the most powerful and dangerous properties of our being. If it is not governed properly, it will destroy us. It is not a moral issue in the conventional sense. It is an issue of self-mastery. The one way it is a moral issue is that it inverts the moralistic accusation: anyone who accuses someone else of sexual misconduct is liable to have his own sexual misconduct exposed.

 

[lostone]

The practice of Christianity, as done by its adherents, is quite different from what is presented in the OT. The practice, as widely done by Christian nationalist Fundamentalists, is very bigoted, socially divisive, and Calvinistic Prosperity theology oriented.

 

[steve_bank]

I was asking for a point by point chapter and verse explanation of how the NT should be a guide.

As to homosexuality I believe Paul speaks against same sex. Leviticus gives the death penalty.

As to lust, sexual attraction is a natural and genetic based as is eating, drinking and urinating. Christianity has given us a warped sense of sexuality that leads to mental and social issues.

There was a pope that went around hacking the penis off statues and covering generals on paintings.

Have you read Augustine? He advocated self flagellation to keep out the feelings like lust. He allegedly proclaimed "God give me chastity, but not yet".

Beting yourself up for getting a hard on when seeing smeone attractive to you is rather silly. It is natural. Marriage and monogamy has always been about social order as human groups got large.

I expect yiu are the type cal 'Chinese Menu' Chrtian. Pick a verse from column A and one from column B. Pick amd choose what yu cite from the bible.

 

[TomC]

The practice of Christianity, as done by its adherents, is quite different from what is presented in the OT.

The practice of Christianity, as done by it's adherents, is quite meaningless.

Anybody can decide what they prefer to believe and do. They are also able to describe themselves as Christian.

Christianity has no particular meaning, much less an objective meaning.

Christianity is just a word people use to make themselves feel better by ascribing their opinions to the God image that dominates the world that they care about.
Tom

 

[No Robots]

It's like socialism: choose your flavour. Nothing wrong with that. Be smart. Resist those flavours that carry negative social consequences. If you are looking for a recipe book that doesn't make any demands of your intelligence and your conscience, then you're looking in the wrong place.

 

[TomC]

Thoughts govern our actions.

Do you think that checking out the hot girl in line at the counter of the store qualifies as adultery?

I don't. It's not thoughts that matter to me it's actions.

If you look at her, but don't touch or screw up your marriage to the mother of your children in any way, I don't see anything like a sin. Much less a biggie like adultery.

You're just a guy, the way God made you. Better than many, but still. Let it go. It's not adultery to notice a hot girl and appreciate the view.
Tom

 

[No Robots]

I appreciate the pass your giving me. But I didn't come here to be exonerated (hello, Groucho Marx).

My first step was eliminating masturbation and porn. There is ample testimony about the destructiveness of these practices. Ask Chris Rock.

My next step is eliminating sexual imagery when looking at women. Who wants a pervy old man leering at her? What does it say about my respect for my long-suffering wife? What does it say about me that at my age I still think there might be some novelty in this? I'm not perfect, yet, but I'm working on it.

 

[No Robots]

Here's a delightful quotation from Amy-Jill Levine:

Jesus was requiring that his disciples do more than listen; he was asking them to think as well. What makes the parables mysterious, or difficult, is that they challenge us to look into the hidden aspects of our own values, our own lives. They bring to the surface unasked questions, and they reveal the answers we have always known, but refuse to acknowledge. Religion has been defined as designed to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable. We do well to think of the parables of Jesus as doing the afflicting. Therefore, if we hear a parable and think, "I really like that" or, worse, fail to take any challenge, we are not listening well enough.

I find that the words about adultery have forced me to confront my attitudes toward women in general. I have learned that to the extent that I can reduce my tendency to sexualize them, I can increase my actual meaningful contact with them. It has been said that the treatment of women in the Gospels created chivalry and banished boorishness.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

It's like socialism: choose your flavour. Nothing wrong with that. Be smart. Resist those flavours that carry negative social consequences. If you are looking for a recipe book that doesn't make any demands of your intelligence and your conscience, then you're looking in the wrong place.

Acts 4, God commands communism. Why aren't you a communist if the Bible is God's word and a guide for modern day living?

 

[steve_bank]

I see, all those other Christians got it wrong, but I No Robots knows the truth?

That is classic Christian apologetics. When confronted by the abuses of Christianity the response is they are not really Christians, but I am.

What I am looking for in this thread is something like he Budhist 8 Fold Path. The practice of Buddhism in a nutshell, which predates Jesus by several centuries. Chtistains on the forum are never bale to arculate and delineate the secifics of how the bible guides theri daily life and actions.

Noble Eightfold Path - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Right View: our actions have consequences, death is not the end, and our actions and beliefs have consequences after death. The Buddha followed and taught a successful path out of this world and the other world (heaven and underworld/hell).[31][32][33][web 1] Later on, right view came to explicitly include karma and rebirth, and the importance of the Four Noble Truths, when "insight" became central to Buddhist soteriology, especially in Theravada Buddhism.[34][35]

Right Resolve or Intention: the giving up of home and adopting the life of a religious mendicant in order to follow the path; this concept aims at peaceful renunciation, into an environment of non-sensuality, non-ill-will (to loving kindness), away from cruelty (to compassion).[36] Such an environment aids contemplation of impermanence, suffering, and non-Self.[36]

Right Speech: no lying, no rude speech, no telling one person what another says about him to cause discord or harm their relationship, no idle chatter.[37][38]

Right Conduct or Action: no killing or injuring, no taking what is not given, no sexual misconduct, no material desires.

Right Livelihood: no trading in weapons, living beings, meat, liquor, and poisons.

Right Effort: preventing the arising of unwholesome states, and generating wholesome states, the bojjhagā (Seven Factors of Awakening). This includes indriya-samvara, "guarding the sense-doors", restraint of the sense faculties.[39][36]

Right Mindfulness (sati; Satipatthana; Sampajañña): a quality that guards or watches over the mind;[40] the stronger it becomes, the weaker unwholesome states of mind become, weakening their power "to take over and dominate thought, word and deed."[41][note 2] In the vipassana movement, sati is interpreted as "bare attention": never be absent minded, being conscious of what one is doing; this encourages the awareness of the impermanence of body, feeling and mind, as well as to experience the five aggregates (skandhas), the five hindrances, the four True Realities and seven factors of awakening.[36]

Right samadhi (passaddhi; ekaggata; sampasadana): practicing four stages of dhyāna ("meditation"), which includes samadhi proper in the second stage, and reinforces the development of the bojjhagā, culminating into upekkha (equanimity) and mindfulness.[43] In the Theravada tradition and the vipassana movement, this is interpreted as ekaggata, concentration or one-pointedness of the mind, and supplemented with vipassana meditation, which aims at insight.

No fortification no intoxicants lie alcohol and dr and tobacco, employment that does not vilate Buddhist ethics, moderated specch no cursing or demening speech, and so on.

Tiough to do in our modern liberal world.

 

[No Robots]

It's like socialism: choose your flavour. Nothing wrong with that. Be smart. Resist those flavours that carry negative social consequences. If you are looking for a recipe book that doesn't make any demands of your intelligence and your conscience, then you're looking in the wrong place.

Acts 4, God commands communism. Why aren't you a communist if the Bible is God's word and a guide for modern day living?

I am a communist.

 

[No Robots]

I see, all those other Christians got it wrong, but I No Robots knows the truth?

That is classic Christian apologetics. When confronted by the abuses of Christianity the response is they are not really Christians, but I am.

What I am looking for in this thread is something like he Budhist 8 Fold Path. The practice of Buddhism in a nutshell, which predates Jesus by several centuries. Chtistains on the forum are never bale to arculate and delineate the secifics of how the bible guides theri daily life and actions.

Noble Eightfold Path - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Right View: our actions have consequences, death is not the end, and our actions and beliefs have consequences after death. The Buddha followed and taught a successful path out of this world and the other world (heaven and underworld/hell).[31][32][33][web 1] Later on, right view came to explicitly include karma and rebirth, and the importance of the Four Noble Truths, when "insight" became central to Buddhist soteriology, especially in Theravada Buddhism.[34][35]

Right Resolve or Intention: the giving up of home and adopting the life of a religious mendicant in order to follow the path; this concept aims at peaceful renunciation, into an environment of non-sensuality, non-ill-will (to loving kindness), away from cruelty (to compassion).[36] Such an environment aids contemplation of impermanence, suffering, and non-Self.[36]

Right Speech: no lying, no rude speech, no telling one person what another says about him to cause discord or harm their relationship, no idle chatter.[37][38]

Right Conduct or Action: no killing or injuring, no taking what is not given, no sexual misconduct, no material desires.

Right Livelihood: no trading in weapons, living beings, meat, liquor, and poisons.

Right Effort: preventing the arising of unwholesome states, and generating wholesome states, the bojjhagā (Seven Factors of Awakening). This includes indriya-samvara, "guarding the sense-doors", restraint of the sense faculties.[39][36]

Right Mindfulness (sati; Satipatthana; Sampajañña): a quality that guards or watches over the mind;[40] the stronger it becomes, the weaker unwholesome states of mind become, weakening their power "to take over and dominate thought, word and deed."[41][note 2] In the vipassana movement, sati is interpreted as "bare attention": never be absent minded, being conscious of what one is doing; this encourages the awareness of the impermanence of body, feeling and mind, as well as to experience the five aggregates (skandhas), the five hindrances, the four True Realities and seven factors of awakening.[36]

Right samadhi (passaddhi; ekaggata; sampasadana): practicing four stages of dhyāna ("meditation"), which includes samadhi proper in the second stage, and reinforces the development of the bojjhagā, culminating into upekkha (equanimity) and mindfulness.[43] In the Theravada tradition and the vipassana movement, this is interpreted as ekaggata, concentration or one-pointedness of the mind, and supplemented with vipassana meditation, which aims at insight.

No fortification no intoxicants lie alcohol and dr and tobacco, employment that does not vilate Buddhist ethics, moderated specch no cursing or demening speech, and so on.

Tiough to do in our modern liberal world.

I am a follower of Robert T. Browne. The Pantelicon is his theosophic work. It creates a synthesis of all wisdom traditions, including the New Testament.

 

[No Robots]

See my Metafilter post: Kabbalah and Communism

 

[No Robots]

I see, all those other Christians got it wrong, but I No Robots knows the truth?

That is classic Christian apologetics. When confronted by the abuses of Christianity the response is they are not really Christians, but I am.

It is a competitive environment. I've indicated those whose views I share.

 

[steve_bank]

I am still not seeing anything definitive about how the NT guides daily life, actions, and relationships.

Did not expect to. People tend to talk about Christianity and Jesus and how it makes them feel, not how it translates into daily life.

So now it is Theosophy? A synchretic mix of traditional mysticism. Today I lump it all as New Age Mysticism. For those who reject traditional religion and want something to believe in.

People who need an identity and an imagines spiritual rreality.

Chertianity based on the NT and atheism are mutually exclusive.

From a quick search on the net Brwone was an ordained minister?

 

[DBT]

Well, for me, the immorality of bible theology excludes it as a moral guide. A code of ethics shouldn't need to include a supernatural element for endorsement or threat. It should stand on its own merit in relation to how we treat each other, the planet and its ecosystems...

 

[No Robots]

Robert T. Browne

 

[No Robots]

According to Browne, the key thing in daily life is to practice Islam, the subordination of the ego to the god within. He points to all the wisdom traditions to support his views. In particular, he identifies Jesus as the great master of this teaching.