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The origin of the phrase "I have a body"

rousseau

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This is going to be a tough one to get out there but I'll do my best.

With our atheistic understanding exposed via modern science most would agree that there is no such thing as a dual mind. People are chemical systems that live in a community, and respond to internal and external cues.

That being said society has developed almost completely along the lines of 'I ness':

"I have a body" not "I am a body"
"I achieved this accolade"
"I am in love"

The etymological origin of most of our languages seems to assume an acting agent. In other words they're built in a way that assumes free will and that we have control over our destinies.

Without getting into an argument about free will itself I'm curious what others think about this aspect of our language: what does it mean that our society assumes agency and where did this originally arise?

Is this one interesting enough for you abaddon? [emoji3]
 
If you are that which perceives the body and the sensations of the body then you are separated from it.

To perceive requires that which perceives and that which it perceives.

You can't have perception any other way.

Thus I, which is a construct of the body, have a body at my disposal which I can move around and make do stuff.
 
“You” is a convention of language. “Perceiver” is an ephemeral conglomeration of events within the body that thinks it perceives a separate body that feels like a machine it wields similar to Plato’s chariot. In dreams and trances another perceiver, among the flow of them (but still calling itself the same “I”), feels like it can float away independently of the body which contributes to the feeling of being separate and separable.

That the perceiver (and what a funny reduction that in itself is) “has” a body is no more true than saying the body has it. That it controls the body is also arguable: how much are its decisions made FOR it by the rest of the organism/environment system? Of course it “stories” things about what it does, that’s what the conscious tidbit of “the mind” does… it explains what’s done to it in terms of “I now am doing this cuz…”, “I now am doing that cuz…”. A good metaphor for the conscious tidbit is less a charioteer driving a pair of horses and more like a boat on an ocean (that claims to command the sea).

And much of what I just said is contorted by the fact it’s language. Unavoidably. We keep thinking we’re describing reality, especially if we can sound “sciencey” about it, when we’re describing our concepts of reality. And there’s a significant difference.

“I think therefore I am”. Hmm… Personally, I don’t think. Thinking thinks, and one thing it thinks is “I”. Perceiving perceives. Decisions are done by a largely unconscious body-environment committee. My selves talk amongst each other, every day, partly consciously and mostly not; together we negotiate our direction(s) in life with some bit of success.

The necessity of an “I” at the start of a sentence, as the doer that does the done, isn’t really necessitated by anything other than communicating our contorted stories.

(Yes, rousseau, another interesting topic).
 
...
That being said society has developed almost completely along the lines of 'I ness':

"I have a body" not "I am a body"
"I achieved this accolade"
"I am in love"

The etymological origin of most of our languages seems to assume an acting agent. In other words they're built in a way that assumes free will and that we have control over our destinies.

Without getting into an argument about free will itself I'm curious what others think about this aspect of our language: what does it mean that our society assumes agency and where did this originally arise?
... [emoji3]

At least in the modern era its probably due to Existentialism. Man is "condemned to be free". Existence (action) before essence. I also see that perspective in Decartes' "I think, therefore I am". Why not, rather, "I have thoughts, therefore I am."? I tend to see I and self in those terms, where the brain creates a model of the self, just as it creates models of the rest of its environment. In this way I am not what I do, but a concept defined by the inter-relationships for which I am (or I is) the focal point.
 
“You” is a convention of language. “Perceiver” is an ephemeral conglomeration of events within the body that thinks it perceives a separate body that feels like a machine it wields similar to Plato’s chariot. In dreams and trances another perceiver, among the flow of them (but still calling itself the same “I”), feels like it can float away independently of the body which contributes to the feeling of being separate and separable.

No. "Perceiver" is to have awareness of things external to the body because of events in the body, presumably the brain.

I perceive the apple.

I perceive my foot.

I am not my foot. I am not my body. I am not that which I can perceive.

I am that which perceives.

And I have a body which moves at my command.
 
No. "Perceiver" is to have awareness of things external to the body because of events in the body, presumably the brain.
Ok.

I perceive the apple. I perceive my foot.
Looks like you renamed or summarized the perceiving processes with the term "I". As if you were being descriptive at all or nailing the perceiver down to a unitary thing by doing so.

I am not my foot. I am not my body. I am not that which I can perceive. I am that which perceives.

And I have a body which moves at my command.
You left out “I am not I” from your list. But I agree you're not your foot or body, that's smearing the distinctions within the grand ecology of what a bodymind is. But, my issue is, reducing an array of processes to an "I" is smearing the distinctions too.

Expand “I am that which” into something more than just noises in the air or squiggles on the “page”. Is the "I" something "that which I can perceive"? Or is it not? I'm betting not! And if not, doesn't that make its existence a problem?

I'm not sure why awareness can't have awareness of its awareness except that you split it, as language instructs you to, into two easy pieces. That makes your formula conform with your formula... the language now fits the prescribed grammatical structure. And it all probably seems completely axiomatic, just so extremely obvious that it's bizarre you have someone doubting it. And why does it seem axiomatic? Cuz, language.
 
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Why not, rather, "I have thoughts, therefore I am."?
Or why not "I am thought therefore I am"?

That does not compute. There is no model for "being thought". But it's incontestable that, conceptually, if I have something then I am. I am the (virtual) haver. (It's better to be the haver than the have-been-hadder. :rolleyesa:).
 
Looks like you renamed or summarized the perceiving processes with the term "I". As if you were being descriptive at all or nailing the perceiver down to a unitary thing by doing so.

We give labels to things. It is nothing unusual.

But the label does represent the unity that knows the apple from the pear.

If there is perception there must be BOTH that which perceives and that which it perceives.

Some unity, call it "I" perceives the apple.

That is why the apple is perceived.

But that "I" is not the body. It is the product of an organ of the body.

The mind is not the body just like the bile is not the body.

Dancing around won't change this.
 
What I think is more interesting than the word games surrounding language of this type, is how life, in some threads, has evolved toward the existence of an ego that produced this type of language.

Looking at the opposite extreme we have bacteria that are by definition living things, but almost completely chemical with zero sentience. Homo Sapiens, on the other hand, have evolved a sense of individualism, self, systems that promote winning, and on and on. So there either must be some survival value to this evolutionary direction, or an increasing sense of self is a natural by-product of improving mental faculties, memory, sense, and so on.

If the latter was the case a 'sense of self' wouldn't be unique to humans, but we would be the only ones with the ability to express the experience, in which case our language has evolved to express that language in the most efficient and effective way.
 
Cogito ergo sum.
That could be the origin but it's difficult to say. More likely in my opinion Descartes chose his formulation because he was influenced like everybody else by this same feature that our spirit seems to be somehow more essential than our bodies. We think we would still be ourselves if being given a different body. No so with being given a different mind. And I think it makes sense, whether or not the mind may be in effect an aspect of the body. I think it goes beyond this debate. For example, I think we value the software more that the hardware in computers even though in effect we're pretty sure, more so that in the case of human beings, that one is just an aspect of the other.
EB
 
“I think therefore I am”. Hmm… Personally, I don’t think. Thinking thinks, and one thing it thinks is “I”.
Read Descartes again. He took the pain to explain at length that by "I" he just meant the "thinking thing".
EB
 
I also see that perspective in Decartes' "I think, therefore I am". Why not, rather, "I have thoughts, therefore I am."?
I think it's just a fact that like Descartes did, most of us think the subject of "I think", "I have an idea", "I had second thoughts", etc. as the mind not the body. However, it would be wrong to equate the notion of mind here with a religious concept. I believe that mankind went through its first millenia without paying attention to its mind very much. It's only gradually that the notion we had a mind took shape. The religious view of it came an a mere extension of the original notion. Removing the extension still leaves the original impression that the subject of thinking is not the body.
EB
 
Is the "I" something "that which I can perceive"? Or is it not? I'm betting not!
I take it you are aware of your thoughts, and this is as good as any perception could possibly be. Now, just call your thoughts, "I". And that's it. Me, I don't see what's wrong with that, irrespective of whether or not the mind is something else than brain processes.
EB
 
I also see that perspective in Decartes' "I think, therefore I am". Why not, rather, "I have thoughts, therefore I am."?
I think it's just a fact that like Descartes did, most of us think the subject of "I think", "I have an idea", "I had second thoughts", etc. as the mind not the body. However, it would be wrong to equate the notion of mind here with a religious concept. I believe that mankind went through its first millenia without paying attention to its mind very much. It's only gradually that the notion we had a mind took shape. The religious view of it came an a mere extension of the original notion. Removing the extension still leaves the original impression that the subject of thinking is not the body.
EB

You may say this is simply a matter of semantics, but I see it as inescapable that if I have something then it is in some way a part of me, and yet I am not that thing. I have thoughts. I have a body. But neither is me. I as a person have relationships and material possessions which partially define me. I am not one thing but the focal point of all these things. It seems even when it comes to the mind it is the sum total of the various functional parts of the brain. The self is not a physical or spiritual thing. It is not ontological so much as it is epistemological. Its a model created by the brain. The more we strive to describe the self or the mind the more plainly this is shown to be true. Philosophers argue about the nature of reality and whether it exists "out there" or only in the mind. Well this is one case where the model we create only exists in the mind.

ETA:
I hold Plato and the Neo-Platonists responsible for promoting the idea that this system of understanding requires an absolute existence where symbolic reasoning requires an idealized spiritual realm. Epicurus had it right:
Epicurus emphasized the senses in his epistemology, and his Principle of Multiple Explanations ("if several theories are consistent with the observed data, retain them all") is an early contribution to the philosophy of science.

"There are also some things for which it is not enough to state a single cause, but several, of which one, however, is the case."
 
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“I think therefore I am”. Hmm… Personally, I don’t think. Thinking thinks, and one thing it thinks is “I”.
Read Descartes again. He took the pain to explain at length that by "I" he just meant the "thinking thing".
EB
"Thing", eh? So, what he demonstrated with thinking is a thing exists?

- - - Updated - - -

Is the "I" something "that which I can perceive"? Or is it not? I'm betting not!
I take it you are aware of your thoughts, and this is as good as any perception could possibly be. Now, just call your thoughts, "I". And that's it. Me, I don't see what's wrong with that, irrespective of whether or not the mind is something else than brain processes.
EB
Who’s the thinker of the thoughts if the thinking thing is my thoughts?
 
I think it's just a fact that like Descartes did, most of us think the subject of "I think", "I have an idea", "I had second thoughts", etc. as the mind not the body. However, it would be wrong to equate the notion of mind here with a religious concept. I believe that mankind went through its first millenia without paying attention to its mind very much. It's only gradually that the notion we had a mind took shape. The religious view of it came an a mere extension of the original notion. Removing the extension still leaves the original impression that the subject of thinking is not the body.
EB

You may say this is simply a matter of semantics, but I see it as inescapable that if I have something then it is in some way a part of me, and yet I am not that thing. I have thoughts. I have a body. But neither is me. I as a person have relationships and material possessions which partially define me. I am not one thing but the focal point of all these things.
I agree it's possible to look at it this way. This would be somewhat similar to the idea of particular things as the bundles of their properties. Yet, this seems a very abstract way of considerering things, which makes me think that it's not the way most people see it. It's a nice theoretical perspective but it's not what we do in actual fact, at least as far as I can tell.

There's another fact, it seems to me, which is that sometimes we talk as if the subject is not our mind at all but our social persona. When you have an appointment, you must be very aware that people expect to see you in person, not, say, talk to you through a telephone line or something. Meaning that your linguistic tics may have functional significance but that they need to be put into context to be properly understood. Your explanation is probably good for talk between scientists or philosophers, but that doesn't change what most people do most of the time because it's just the way it works. I'll let the better psychologists to explain why we tend to speak like this.

It seems even when it comes to the mind it is the sum total of the various functional parts of the brain. The self is not a physical or spiritual thing. It is not ontological so much as it is epistemological. Its a model created by the brain. The more we strive to describe the self or the mind the more plainly this is shown to be true. Philosophers argue about the nature of reality and whether it exists "out there" or only in the mind. Well this is one case where the model we create only exists in the mind.
I will grant you that many sciency types like to talk as if it was just dumb to not assume that we have a brain and that it "does" the mind. First, my point was that the perspective of mind-as-subject seems to be the default position for most people, since forever, not that our mind wasn't in need of a brain. Second, I'm not sure why the idea of a brain should be taken as particularly noteworthy. Personally, I believe that the way my mind is effectively required the whole universe to have been a certain way during its long history. My brain, if I have one, I'm quite sure couldn't do whatever it's doing without the rest of the universe to cause it to do what it's doing. Third, personaly I don't actually know that I have a brain whereas I know that I have a mind, in the sense given by Descartes. Fourth, it's clear to me that if however talk of "my brain" was somehow correct this notion of "my brain" would remain an image I use to make sense of things. I don't really believe that I have something like an actual brain.

ETA:
I hold Plato and the Neo-Platonists responsible for promoting the idea that this system of understanding requires an absolute existence where symbolic reasoning requires an idealized spiritual realm. Epicurus had it right:
Epicurus emphasized the senses in his epistemology, and his Principle of Multiple Explanations ("if several theories are consistent with the observed data, retain them all") is an early contribution to the philosophy of science.

"There are also some things for which it is not enough to state a single cause, but several, of which one, however, is the case."
I'm not sure how Plato's views relate to what I said. I take it that your view of the subject as the focus of whatever "we" have may be an alternative to Platonic Ideas but you may have noticed that I take an epistemological angle as well, and it seems to me that Descartes also derives his ontology from his epistemology, at least when it comes to the issue of the mind.
EB
 
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