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The Problem of Evil (split from is atheism unappealing)

Maybe God has reasons for allowing horrendous evil and unspeakable suffering is not a good and acceptable argument. What metaphysical principle could possibly force God to need that? Is there horrendous evil and suffering in heaven?
 
STAFF COMMENT: THis is a split from the “Atheism unappealing” thread. Parts of this were split further to the “Thought Experiment” Thread.


(This is in a reply to this comment in the other thread)

Just to mention a different view to the theoretical Judeo-Christian concept of God. You have a different one to mine CC (no surprise). "The problem of the existence of evil" so described, is resolved when you read 'further' so to speak. Meaning when there is 'no more' existence of evil, that part is then ... the new Kingdom and Heaven bit.

Evil as an independent agent that preys on people aka Satan is metaphor for aspects of human nature. It spreads from person to person like racism.



It's not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves (William Shakespeare) This famous line is said by Cassius, a Roman nobleman, talking with his friend Brutus in Shakespeare's tragedy, Julius Caesar.Mar 17, 2021

It becomes an image to blame your own failings on. Or as Flip Wilson used to say 'The devil made me do it'.

 
Maybe God has reasons for allowing horrendous evil and unspeakable suffering is not a good and acceptable argument. What metaphysical principle could possibly force God to need that? Is there horrendous evil and suffering in heaven?
Maybe god didn't invent the universe simulator in the first place, just turned it on, and doesn't have the time or social interest among their peers in actually resolving the problems there... And if they don't, who cares? "What difference does evil make if it's just  simulated evil?"

The fact is, if we're going to use an example, I can absolutely point towards sub-universes we create that are full of suffering, even while our universe, "heaven" relative to such a place, is also full of suffering.

Metaphysically, as relates the Dwarf, I only have maybe 8 hours a day and a human level of intelligence against which I might expend to solve a problem for a Dwarf in my Dwarf Fortress world, and all their suffering exists in the first place so that I have something to waste my time watching, while contemplating implications of that which I observe upon the nature of my own suffering and existence.

The fact is, omnipotence and omniscience are available to any god of any universe, even a human god of a computer-generated universe. But that doesn't mean using such powers comes to me free, easy, or is reasonable as a way of resolving requests... solving all our problems for us may entirely defeat the point, too, as pertains my standard response to Pascal's Wager.
 
Maybe it's a necessity to allow their existence to continue, so they can reveal themselves 'of their own accord' like signing a declaration, declaring where they stand with God, by their own wills, as it is with humans to choose the path to walk on.

Maybe god didn't invent the universe simulator in the first place, just turned it on, and doesn't have the time or social interest among their peers in actually resolving the problems there... And if they don't, who cares?

Do you two realize how much alike you sound to me?

Wildly implausible claims and scenarios, but you both start with "maybe" because you've no evidence whatsoever. It sounds less hubristic when you qualify your nonsense with "maybe".
Tom
 
Maybe it's a necessity to allow their existence to continue, so they can reveal themselves 'of their own accord' like signing a declaration, declaring where they stand with God, by their own wills, as it is with humans to choose the path to walk on.

Maybe god didn't invent the universe simulator in the first place, just turned it on, and doesn't have the time or social interest among their peers in actually resolving the problems there... And if they don't, who cares?

Do you two realize how much alike you sound to me?

Wildly implausible claims and scenarios, but you both start with "maybe" because you've no evidence whatsoever. It sounds less hubristic when you qualify your nonsense with "maybe".
Tom
The difference is that for me, it's not actually a "maybe".

It's a recognition of an immediate reality as pertains an actual observable sub-universe, and then having the wisdom to recognize that the immediate observability of my own situation answers the PoE in a way that indicates that the way religious people have been thinking about it is deeply flawed, mistaking power and the ability to create a "perfect" thing for perfection.

I'm an omnipotent and omniscient being as respects the mathematical microstate of a system created of rearranging our universe's systemic macrostate.

In less physical jargon, I can access memory and a debugger on an isolated process. With respect to that process, I can do and know literally anything that is not an absolute logical contradiction which is accessible as "it's present stepwise state."

Being a creator of such a system, if I were able to make a much larger scale version, hosting much more interesting processes of thought within it, absolutely enables me to answer the question in the way I have:

I am a god: creator of a universe, omnipotent and omniscient with respect to it.

I am a human being: a sack of meat with no special capabilities any other sack of meat in particular must lack.

I have no social leverage upon me from any human influence to solve all the suffering my creations experience, and it would be too much work to solve all their problems.

In fact depending on which universe, of my rolodex of creations and future creations we are discussing, I have already in a variety of threads pointed out why solving their problems for them would defeat the entire purpose of their existence in the first place (to see if things that exist in a universe like ours with minds like ours would discover ethics equivalent to ours, and to select such ethical yet alien beings from this environment to bring into our reality for the sake of adding new and radically different perspectives to our society and culture).

This answers the problem of evil re: evil exists, at least there in an observable sub-universe with an omnipotent, omniscient, and arguably halfway decent god because the whole point is to discover whether ethics and goodness is an emergent property of intelligent life.
 
The difference is that for me, it's not actually a "maybe".
I'm confident that it it's not actually a "maybe" for @Learner either.
You're two peas in a pod.

But Learner is less inclined to word salad.
Tom
Or perhaps your capability, or lack of it, to follow abstraction means your reach for the topic exceeds your grasp. For both of you.
 
Religion is the definition of word salad, in most cases anyway. Convictions of the existence of mystical, magical, juvenile, woo-woo bullshit is just an indicator that the brain hasn't yet matured.
 
Religion is the definition of word salad, in most cases anyway. Convictions of the existence of mystical, magical, juvenile, woo-woo bullshit is just an indicator that the brain hasn't yet matured.
The point is that the PoE isn't actually a problem because gods are not required to be good any more than they are required to exist.

That was always a juvenile assumption in the first place.
 
Religion is the definition of word salad, in most cases anyway. Convictions of the existence of mystical, magical, juvenile, woo-woo bullshit is just an indicator that the brain hasn't yet matured.
Religion?
As opposed to:
It's a recognition of an immediate reality as pertains an actual observable sub-universe, and then having the wisdom to recognize that the immediate observability of my own situation answers the PoE in a way that indicates that the way religious people have been thinking about it is deeply flawed, mistaking power and the ability to
Tom
 
The difference is that for me, it's not actually a "maybe".
I'm confident that it it's not actually a "maybe" for @Learner either.
You're two peas in a pod.

But Learner is less inclined to word salad.
Tom
Or perhaps your capability, or lack of it, to follow abstraction means your reach for the topic exceeds your grasp. For both of you.

I'm confident that Learner thinks the same of you.
I think it's true of you both.
Tom
 
Religious debate and abstract philosophical debate are both much ado about nothing. Erzatz.

I believe both 'I think theretofore I am' and 'How many angels can fit on the head of a needle' were intended to show how riduculous debate can be.

Same with Schrodinger's Cat.
 
Religion is the definition of word salad, in most cases anyway. Convictions of the existence of mystical, magical, juvenile, woo-woo bullshit is just an indicator that the brain hasn't yet matured.
Religion?
As opposed to:
It's a recognition of an immediate reality as pertains an actual observable sub-universe, and then having the wisdom to recognize that the immediate observability of my own situation answers the PoE in a way that indicates that the way religious people have been thinking about it is deeply flawed, mistaking power and the ability to
Tom
For the reading comprehension challenged:

It is a recognition of an immediate reality: it (my previous post) is an immediate truthful description...

As pertains an actual observable sub-universe: the truthful description is about an object, which when viewed in isolation, is itself an isolated deterministic system, which from within it would be seen as "the whole universe"...

And then having the wisdom to recognize: something TomC seems to lack, which is to say, the ability to recognize truths about the implications of my statements...

That the immediate observability of my own situation: that the fact that I am, with respect to "the whole universe" of the dwarves, I am literally their most immediately relevant "god"...

Answers the PoE in a way that indicates: provides an answer to the the discussion which has corollaries such that...

That the way religious people have been thinking about it is deeply flawed,: that the discussion fails to acknowledge large and important factors with respect to the "problem"...

mistaking power and the ability to...: TomC dishonestly cuts posts so as to make something that makes sense seem to not...

Mistaking power and the ability to create a "perfect" thing for perfection: the nature of the important exclusions of religious persons in addressing the PoE is that they assume that the power to create a universe would mean that it must be run in a way they themselves would consider 'good'.

Functionally, this would all resolve roughly to "I actually created a universe, I'm not evil, and yet that universe contains suffering on the scale that only universes may, and not only does it contain suffering but rather it MUST contain suffering or the whole exercise would be pointless."
 
I'll need some extra dressing, please.


Never mind. I don't really want that much anyway.
Tom
 
As far as Christinty goes, the Bible explicitly claims God is good. God is perfect. God is perfect. God is merciful, just, fair compassionate and righteous. Christianity is the big pest religion of America. The big omni-everything God of Christianity makes no rational sense when we consider the Problem of Evil.
 
Or Lobster Thermidor aux crevettes with a mornay sauce
served in a provencale manner with shallots and aubergines
garnished with truffle pate, brandy and a fried egg on top and spam.
 
Maybe it's a necessity to allow their existence to continue, so they can reveal themselves 'of their own accord' like signing a declaration, declaring where they stand with God, by their own wills, as it is with humans to choose the path to walk on.

Maybe god didn't invent the universe simulator in the first place, just turned it on, and doesn't have the time or social interest among their peers in actually resolving the problems there... And if they don't, who cares?

Do you two realize how much alike you sound to me?

Wildly implausible claims and scenarios, but you both start with "maybe" because you've no evidence whatsoever. It sounds less hubristic when you qualify your nonsense with "maybe".
Tom

Right on, TomC, it's not an idea I could demonstrate as any sort of evidence (the mind of God). I said 'maybe' in terms of an off-the-cuff hypothetical.
 
Or Lobster Thermidor aux crevettes with a mornay sauce
served in a provencale manner with shallots and aubergines
garnished with truffle pate, brandy and a fried egg on top and spam.
If by that you mean my post was meaty and delicious, I'll take it.

Also, yes, I tend to be a bit spammy as results from my rather autistic interests, as regards creation, universes, and problems people invent for themselves.

The fact is, I rather think Tom and Steve are rather spicy because they don't seem to actually know how to eat the metaphorical lobster as it were. They just see the hard shell and think "what is this, is this even food?"

They don't take the time as it were to open it up and really look inside.

If they did they might understand that we live in the day and age when humans can actually do the exercise rather than just play thought experiments about it: they can actually go through the motions of creation, creating a universe, watching it's denizens, and trying their best to minimize suffering there with infinite power and access to knowledge and failing at it miserably anyway!

And maybe Learner could join them and realize that given the fact that they see themselves as a clearly imperfect sinner, that the fact that they have sat in the seat they believe requires perfection while NOT being perfect rather invalidates that expectation.

And maybe all y'all can consider that perhaps the intents of more intelligent minds in doing exercises like these, purely human and understandable intents (such as the generation and training of strong AI via Life Simulators) would perfectly well explain the apparent paradox.

And further, that once they let go of all their assumptions about what "being a god" implies or doesn't, that this question of why evil has no real leverage on the question of "how many gods are there?"

The answer there remains "zero or more".
 
As far as Christinty goes, the Bible explicitly claims God is good. God is perfect. God is perfect. God is merciful, just, fair compassionate and righteous. Christianity is the big pest religion of America. The big omni-everything God of Christianity makes no rational sense when we consider the Problem of Evil.
Of course it doesn't make sense to you (plural). The existence of the "problem of Evil" is actually quite simple to understand. Right under your noses, the simpleness of its existence eludes the "over-thinking" (not at you directly) ... perhaps its too simple for the very "highly educated," because their tutors were very expensive and much time time was invested learning and increasing ones vocabualry for more exotic word salad? (I jest lol).

Seriously ... Evil exists because its synomynous to the thinking intellect of the (selfish) human being... when combined with the gift of being given nerve endings... nerve endings in a manner of speaking... to feel the physical world (life), like the sun in your face, the ability and pleasure to smell the scents of nature and feel the warmth of someones love. and so on. Its an intricate emotional reality when it comes to humans! You can be influenced to do evil, e.g. be shown or coaxed into over-abusing ones own physical and mental feelings.

what's the resolve? I'm reminded of the ideas we hear of... when its suggested that, if you took away free will you'd get robots etc..& etc..
What do you get then, when you desensitize the nerve endings of human beings? I suppose I could say... there'd be NO evil i.e. self gratification or lustful desires, one could yearn for - especially being harmful encounters, on the detriment of the innocent.
Without having any physical feelings at all, you'd be as useful as a crash-test-dummy!
 
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