The Problem of Evil (split from is atheism unappealing)

[Learner]

nature killed those unfornates not God

To suggest that nature can override the wishes of God is to admit that God is powerless, or more likely, non-existent.

Did God not have the ability to prevent nature from doing this? Or did God not know about it? Or did God not care?

(Responding in no particular order)

Good questions. For the sake of decent discussion, heres my view from a theistic perspective. God created systems i.e. the universe is automatic. or automated, hence obviously, we have cycles and seasons, where we, with a bit of summing up from observation, get a good fair amount of predictability from repeatable natural processes observed; setting our charts and tables by. "He made the moon to mark the seasons...( btw also tells us, the moon is not a god. )

I'm curious... Genesis 50 addresses this, yet you decided to invent something else out of thin air. You do this while noting your paygrade on the subject is inferior. It is odd, that someone of faith would ignore the Bible, and try to invent an answer to a question, that was already answered.

Curiosity for me too. I'm not actually sure what addresses what. Do you also mean Inventing out of thin air, 'systems created by God and No one is pulling puppet strings, which is incorrect and non-biblical?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

nature killed those unfornates not God

To suggest that nature can override the wishes of God is to admit that God is powerless, or more likely, non-existent.

Did God not have the ability to prevent nature from doing this? Or did God not know about it? Or did God not care?

(Responding in no particular order)

Good questions. For the sake of decent discussion, heres my view from a theistic perspective. God created systems i.e. the universe is automatic. or automated, hence obviously, we have cycles and seasons, where we, with a bit of summing up from observation, get a good fair amount of predictability from repeatable natural processes observed; setting our charts and tables by. "He made the moon to mark the seasons...( btw also tells us, the moon is not a god. )

I'm curious... Genesis 50 addresses this, yet you decided to invent something else out of thin air. You do this while noting your paygrade on the subject is inferior. It is odd, that someone of faith would ignore the Bible, and try to invent an answer to a question, that was already answered.

Curiosity for me too. I'm not actually sure what addresses what.

The reason for allowing evil and bad things. Again, my reference to Genesis 50 should have told you that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I would still like to explain why I think the forbidden fruit may not be anything like the apple.

Who cares what fruit it was. That isn't remotely relevant to the narrative. It was a tree, god said the fruit from said tree was deadly. Serpent knew better (he was wise). Man and woman ate the fruit, their eyes were opened, but they still didn't understand the end of Lost. God finds out man and woman are more like him than they were. He is pissed. Curses them, boots them from garden, creates Dennys.

One would like to think at least, to allow even the theist on the forum, as a member to explain his or her point of view, give their tuppance worth, responding to one who would ask in a courteous manner and curiosity, just for discussion, even if he may be wrong ... rather than ranting on as if one has a grudge, and best you can do is come with "making things up". My word... how people are so sensitive. No one likes particular answers I get it.

Patience please...

Oh, back to the Theist babe in the woods act I see.

 

[Jarhyn]

Sounds to me like your ‘explanation’ leaves you exactly where you started - with a God who is either powerless, ignorant, or uncaring.

I think he understand this, even though he cannot bring himself to acknowledge it publicly. He is probably unwilling to acknowledge this publicly, or even consciously in his own mind because:

(a) He is terrified that his God will punish him or,
(b) It might lead him to believe that God doesn't exist, which would mean all the time and effort he has put in searching for this god was a waste, and his whole world gets turned upside down.

I don't know Lerner's motivation and reasoning but it sounds very much like the battered wife syndrome, "I can't leave him because he loves me. It's my fault that I keep doing things that make him mad enough to beat me."

So, I might ask, what responsibility would such a flawed being as to create, even if of perfect physics, an imperfect world as relates us, imply?

I wonder sometimes as to whether any perfect system can possibly resist extending to a point where things come to exist and compete and think among the system's extensions unto chaotic structure.

To state the question a different way: let us assume a fucked up, flawed god that can do "anything" in "a single instant of time" but for him it might actually cost him something, what obligation do you expect this being to fulfill?

How does "god"  attone for having created you specifically?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

No one likes particular answers I get it.

They're not answers, they are responses at best.

 

[skepticalbip]

Sounds to me like your ‘explanation’ leaves you exactly where you started - with a God who is either powerless, ignorant, or uncaring.

I think he understand this, even though he cannot bring himself to acknowledge it publicly. He is probably unwilling to acknowledge this publicly, or even consciously in his own mind because:

(a) He is terrified that his God will punish him or,
(b) It might lead him to believe that God doesn't exist, which would mean all the time and effort he has put in searching for this god was a waste, and his whole world gets turned upside down.

I don't know Lerner's motivation and reasoning but it sounds very much like the battered wife syndrome, "I can't leave him because he loves me. It's my fault that I keep doing things that make him mad enough to beat me."

So, I might ask, what responsibility would such a flawed being as to create, even if of perfect physics, an imperfect world as relates us, imply?

I wonder sometimes as to whether any perfect system can possibly resist extending to a point where things come to exist and compete and think among the system's extensions unto chaotic structure.

To state the question a different way: let us assume a fucked up, flawed god that can do "anything" in "a single instant of time" but for him it might actually cost him something, what obligation do you expect this being to fulfill?

How does "god"  attone for having created you specifically?

That seems to be mixing different subjects. I was describing what Lerner's arguments sound like to me.

As for what a supposed god owes someone for having created them, it depends on what the person claiming there is a creator god supposes the god to be. If they suppose their god to be an all powerful loving god then existence should reflect that, no pain and suffering. If they suppose their god to be noncaring or a sadistic bastard then they could make a better, but still flawed, case for his existence considering the reality of the world.

 

[atrib]

As I have already answered, although not to your liking, or our forum friends who are giving you their little support, maintaining the delusion thats seems to be merely hanging on a wee tiny thread i.e." I won't answer, I can't answer etc.".

You won't answer. That has been established beyond any reasonable doubt. There are plenty of questions pending, but instead of addressing the points they raise, you waste your time by acting coy. This makes it looks like you are simply saying unsupported nonsense to provoke a response, instead of engaging in sincere discussion.

Again, there are plenty of posts that refute the claims you make. Address them if you can. If not, shut the fuck up and stop wasting people's time with stupid, irrelevant nonsense.

 

[atrib]

Yes I see the your logic..similar to Atrib's. Gods absence implies God kills indescriminately...

God does kill indiscriminately.

Genesis 6:17​

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life, from under heaven; [and] every thing that [is] in the earth shall die.

Jeremiah 47:2​

Thus saith the LORD; Behold, waters rise up out of the north, and shall be an overflowing flood, and shall overflow the land, and all that is therein; the city, and them that dwell therein: then the men shall cry, and all the inhabitants of the land shall howl.

Have you read the fucking Bible?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think there is some talking past each other here. The Christian God as proposed by evangelicals has several properties... has to have them. This includes omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotent, and ever loving (yeah, I know Yahweh is a dick, but evangelicals be weird like that). This creates the 'existence of evil issue'.

Certainly we can imagine, as many have worshipped, gods with limits both in empathy and capability. Then there is no need to explain the existence of evil.

Genesis 50 tries weakly to explain why evil happens to God's people by saying, god lets bad stuff happen to make good things... like how Joseph was screwed by his brothers and that turned into something great... 200 years of Egyptian captivity but that led to a 40 year wandering in the desert... but that led to a few decades of goodness, which was followed by the Babylonian Captivity, the Roman crap, a couple millennium of anti-Semitism... you know what, I think Yahweh is just a crappy god.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

you know what, I think Yahweh is just a crappy god.

Most definitely crappy, but still possibly a god. Yahweh is like a child god. It has a lot of power but keeps screwing the pooch because it doesn't know any better. It doesn't seem to have a plan.

Think about all the really dumb things you did as a kid, some of which may have caused great pain and even suffering to other forms of life. And you didn't give a shit or know enough to give a shit. That seems to describe biblegod.

Of course biblegod is just a creation of the superstitions people who were looking for answers and trying to understand and explain natural phenomenon. Sometimes mother nature was kind and plentiful and safe while at other times it was downright cruel. They didn't understand how this could be so invented this child god to explain the chaos.

The answer to all the stupid is knowledge and atheism, to know there isn't a god or a child god, just superstitious ignorant fools who could have been any of us trying to explain their experiences and emotions.

As for Learner, he's just afraid, so rides pascal's horse. Giddyup!

 

[Learner]

Sounds to me like your ‘explanation’ leaves you exactly where you started - with a God who is either powerless, ignorant, or uncaring.

I think he understand this, even though he cannot bring himself to acknowledge it publicly. He is probably unwilling to acknowledge this publicly, or even consciously in his own mind because:

I understand your "thinking" suggests I should "accept" your made up "biblical knowledge and theistic concepts".

(a) He is terrified that his God will punish him or,

Yes, I suppose so, if for example I was " lying for God" as you baselessly assert in a previous post.

(b) It might lead him to believe that God doesn't exist, which would mean all the time and effort he has put in searching for this god was a waste, and his whole world gets turned upside down.

The research I used to do in the past was only to argue against the biblical God, but irony would have it... it turned the other way round lol.

Praise the Lord for opening my eyes. (no offense intended)

 

[Jarhyn]

you know what, I think Yahweh is just a crappy god.

Most definitely crappy, but still possibly a god. Yahweh is like a child god. It has a lot of power but keeps screwing the pooch because it doesn't know any better. It doesn't seem to have a plan.

Think about all the really dumb things you did as a kid, some of which may have caused great pain and even suffering to other forms of life. And you didn't give a shit or know enough to give a shit. That seems to describe biblegod.

Of course biblegod is just a creation of the superstitions people who were looking for answers and trying to understand and explain natural phenomenon. Sometimes mother nature was kind and plentiful and safe while at other times it was downright cruel. They didn't understand how this could be so invented this child god to explain the chaos.

The answer to all the stupid is knowledge and atheism, to know there isn't a god or a child god, just superstitious ignorant fools who could have been any of us trying to explain their experiences and emotions.

As for Learner, he's just afraid, so rides pascal's horse. Giddyup!

And all the while the thought exercise says two things to me: god can prefer an atheist; that we should probably be very careful when playing about with creating certain kinds of systems.

 

[Learner]

As I have already answered, although not to your liking, or our forum friends who are giving you their little support, maintaining the delusion thats seems to be merely hanging on a wee tiny thread i.e." I won't answer, I can't answer etc.".

You won't answer. That has been established beyond any reasonable doubt. There are plenty of questions pending, but instead of addressing the points they raise, you waste your time by acting coy. This makes it looks like you are simply saying unsupported nonsense to provoke a response, instead of engaging in sincere discussion.

I won't answer..where did I hear that before? You declared that a few times like a public announcement (as you do), but when I do answer and respond, I'm wondering why does he think this? I remember saying one time "I hope no one is making bets that I won't answer". Now yes, I will say and admit I am arrogant at times, because thats what it will look like, and I have to say, IS a requirement when regarding some posts, which funny enough.. a recent post described me as a know-it-all, which says something about not liking my responses.

Again, there are plenty of posts that refute the claims you make. Address them if you can. If not, shut the fuck up and stop wasting people's time with stupid, irrelevant nonsense.

Consider this one among others as being addressed. I will if and when I can. I haven't the luxury of retirement yet. Curb your personal grudge, it's a waste of time.

 

[Elixir]

Consider this one among others as being addressed.

Why? It has not been addressed.

Curb your personal grudge, it's a waste of time.

It's not personal. It's the gestalt. Attack it at your peril.

 

[Learner]

Consider this one among others as being addressed.

Why? It has not been addressed.

Well of course you'll say that.

Curb your personal grudge, it's a waste of time.

It's not personal. It's the gestalt. Attack it at your peril.

We have a little history you see, and he's been trying ever so hard to have something on me for a few years now,. I pretend I don't see it. And I was being kind with grudge.

 

[atrib]

As I have already answered, although not to your liking, or our forum friends who are giving you their little support, maintaining the delusion thats seems to be merely hanging on a wee tiny thread i.e." I won't answer, I can't answer etc.".

You won't answer. That has been established beyond any reasonable doubt. There are plenty of questions pending, but instead of addressing the points they raise, you waste your time by acting coy. This makes it looks like you are simply saying unsupported nonsense to provoke a response, instead of engaging in sincere discussion.

I won't answer..where did I hear that before? You declared that a few times like a public announcement (as you do), but when I do answer and respond, I'm wondering why does he think this? I remember saying one time "I hope no one is make bets that I won't answer". Now yes I will say I am arrogant at times, because thats what it will look like, and I have to say, is a requirement when regarding some posts, which funny enough.. a recent post described me as a know-it-all, which says something about not liking my responses.

Here is a list of my posts debunking your claims that you continue to ignore:

https://iidb.org/threads/when-you-break-it-down-is-atheism-unappealing.26092/page-5#post-1014754

https://iidb.org/threads/when-you-break-it-down-is-atheism-unappealing.26092/page-5#post-1014715

https://iidb.org/threads/when-you-break-it-down-is-atheism-unappealing.26092/page-5#post-1014476

https://iidb.org/threads/when-you-break-it-down-is-atheism-unappealing.26092/page-4#post-1013906

https://iidb.org/threads/when-you-break-it-down-is-atheism-unappealing.26092/page-4#post-1013893

Are you going to respond to any of these? I think not.

 

[Elixir]

We have a little history you see,

I can read.

He's been trying ever so hard to have something on me for a few years now,. I pretend I don't see it.

You're doing a good job of pretending. One might almost think you can't tell you've been had.

 

[atrib]

Consider this one among others as being addressed.

Why? It has not been addressed.

Well of course you'll say that.

Curb your personal grudge, it's a waste of time.

It's not personal. It's the gestalt. Attack it at your peril.

We have a little history you see, and he's been trying ever so hard to have something on me for a few years now,. I pretend I don't see it. And I was being kind with grudge.

Pointing out that you don't respond to the facts and arguments presented by others is not indicative of a grudge, its a statement of fact. You have been engaging in this behavior for a long time, and I have been calling you out on this behavior for a long time. The way to fix the problem is to engage openly and honestly. We are here to have a conversation, not to listen to you preach about your personal faith.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

you know what, I think Yahweh is just a crappy god.

Most definitely crappy, but still possibly a god. Yahweh is like a child god. It has a lot of power but keeps screwing the pooch because it doesn't know any better. It doesn't seem to have a plan.

Think about all the really dumb things you did as a kid, some of which may have caused great pain and even suffering to other forms of life. And you didn't give a shit or know enough to give a shit. That seems to describe biblegod.

Of course biblegod is just a creation of the superstitions people who were looking for answers and trying to understand and explain natural phenomenon. Sometimes mother nature was kind and plentiful and safe while at other times it was downright cruel. They didn't understand how this could be so invented this child god to explain the chaos.

Honestly, I don't think biblegod answers many questions about life at all. The pre-history stuff kind of addresses Earth's origin, the origins of species , includes generic flood narrative. There is a bit of ontological bits here and there. But otherwise, most of the Tanakh is answering the question, "If we are the chosen people, dude WTF?!" The New Testament answers even less. It just claims new ownership is in charge and you should make the check payable to Paul.

As for Learner, he's just afraid, so rides pascal's horse. Giddyup!

Well, they were an atheist first... LOL.

I was raised very poorly as a Catholic, became an atheist around 11, went to a Christian Engineering college where studying religion was necessary... and boy did none of that convert me. It really did help confirm my thoughts on the whole thing.

 

[Learner]

As I have already answered, although not to your liking, or our forum friends who are giving you their little support, maintaining the delusion thats seems to be merely hanging on a wee tiny thread i.e." I won't answer, I can't answer etc.".

You won't answer. That has been established beyond any reasonable doubt. There are plenty of questions pending, but instead of addressing the points they raise, you waste your time by acting coy. This makes it looks like you are simply saying unsupported nonsense to provoke a response, instead of engaging in sincere discussion.

I won't answer..where did I hear that before? You declared that a few times like a public announcement (as you do), but when I do answer and respond, I'm wondering why does he think this? I remember saying one time "I hope no one is make bets that I won't answer". Now yes I will say I am arrogant at times, because thats what it will look like, and I have to say, is a requirement when regarding some posts, which funny enough.. a recent post described me as a know-it-all, which says something about not liking my responses.

Here is a list of my posts debunking your claims that you continue to ignore:

https://iidb.org/threads/when-you-break-it-down-is-atheism-unappealing.26092/page-5#post-1014754

https://iidb.org/threads/when-you-break-it-down-is-atheism-unappealing.26092/page-5#post-1014715

https://iidb.org/threads/when-you-break-it-down-is-atheism-unappealing.26092/page-5#post-1014476

https://iidb.org/threads/when-you-break-it-down-is-atheism-unappealing.26092/page-4#post-1013906

https://iidb.org/threads/when-you-break-it-down-is-atheism-unappealing.26092/page-4#post-1013893

Are you going to respond to any of these? I think not.

You think not? You have always had that confidence which is admirable. You deserve to wait,and I'm now busy.