The Problem of Evil (split from is atheism unappealing)

[Hermit]

God loves us

Every time I hear this sort of thing I think of that sort of thing:

Spoiler: The work of a cruel God

Some of the more than 250,00 victims that were killed in under six hours by a tsunami in 2005

God is not on the scene anymore,it seems i.e. it's satans world now as its written,.. we didn't need God aparrently .

God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?

This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.

When God was around interacting with humans, we read that people or nations still went and worshipped other gods and traditions, turning their backs on God. Judgement & punishment was dealt out, right there and then in Gods presence!

Your question does ponder the thought: If God was around now, then I would wonder if there'd be that many people left, as sinners (myself included) would have fallen short of the commandments?

No. Not at all. I ponder the thought: How do you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us"?

 

[atrib]

The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!

The Bible says we were born with a sinful nature, does it not?
Who created us this way? God did.
Did any of us have any say in the matter? Fuck NO!

So when you say it is our choice to be sinful, you are lying for your god. Or you don't know how to read. Which is it?

 

[atrib]

I don't think it was an apple... the atheist concept perhaps.

It was a fruit of some kind. That is what the Bible says:

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

The forbidden fruit imo was sex, you know...the fig leaf hiding their shame and so on.

No, I don't know that. The Bible doesn't say it was sex, it says that God cursed Adam and Eve for eating from the tree of knowledge.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

No mention of sex. The forbidden fruit was knowledge. And God didn't want his human robot toys to gain knowledge, to think for themselves.

"Go forth and be fruitful and multiply" doesn't mean with anyone or anything that moves, willy nilly. Hence why so much emphasis on all types of sexual taboos.

God is explicitly telling Adam and Eve to have sex and multiply. Why would God do that if he didn't want them to have sex? And why would he give Adam and Eve sex organs in Eden if he didn't want them to have sex? You are not making any sense.

There is nothing wrong with consenting adults having sex. None. We have had this discussion before, but you appear to have forgotten.

 

[atrib]

What I mean for example is: I have no doubt God loves us and the concept as I understand it, says, He wants us to get back to Him... that's what it reads quite clearly to me, which obviously is the total opposite to the not-so-nice mis-characterization view of God, usually portrayed by atheists.

You have zero evidence that a god exists. You cannot even articulate what a god is or describe any of its characteristics. But you are certain that this creature loves us. Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand.

Atheists read the Bible as written - a work of mythological fiction that was created about 2,000 years ago when humans had very little understanding of the world they lived in. Things haven't changed much since that time for some people. Christians lie for their god all the fucking time. How many times have I pointed out gross untruths that you have repeated in these forums over the years?

 

[atrib]

Understandable, death was fore menioned way back in Genesis to happen. God is not on the scene anymore,it seems i.e. it's satans world now as its written,.. we didn't need God aparrently .

God is the absentee parent. He fucked up Adam and Eve's lives for disobeying him, and then vanished from the scene. Loving father indeed!

What a fucking joke.

 

[atrib]

When God was around interacting with humans, we read that people or nations still went and worshipped other gods and traditions, turning their backs on God. Judgement & punishment was dealt out, right there and then in Gods presence!

When was god around to interact with humans? Where does the Bible say this? And why are you blaming humans for God turning his back on humanity?

Making up shit as usual. What a fucking joke.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

God loves us

Every time I hear this sort of thing I think of that sort of thing:

Spoiler: The work of a cruel God

Some of the more than 250,00 victims that were killed in under six hours by a tsunami in 2005

I think of the convocation before the Indy 500, a light religious prayer asking for god to protect the drivers. When in fact, God has been hit or miss over the years. That in fact, it was science and engineering that saved the lives of Tom Sneva and Kevin Cogan (specifically at Indy), and prevented greater injury to so many other drivers. Eddie Sachs, Gordon Smiley, Scott Brayton weren't as lucky though.

But every year, they keep asking for God's protection. No thought or thanks to those who put in the Safer Barrier, designed the cockpit (Grosjean's life was saved because of all sorts of tech in his F1 crash), fire suits, etc...

 

[Learner]

The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!

The Bible says we were born with a sinful nature, does it not?

Born with a sinful nature? Yes of course! Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.

let's get our contexts in sync:

Now the 'problem with evil' and not taking part, as I previously mentioned... , is the type of evil that causes needless harm, suffering or death to others, and so to illustrate my example....

... HOW did YOU refrain from having any dark morbid thoughts and acting on those desires of say: raping vunerable innocent victims, or, what stopped YOU from killing people that really got on your nerves, when they got you so riled up? Do you refrain from any atrocious acts because you fear going to Jail or the consequence of some violent retaliation, OR, you turned away from going there, because your conscience (of compassion) got the better of you?

Who created us this way? God did.
Did any of us have any say in the matter? Fuck NO!

Understandable; you see its God's fault for sin to exist because 'technically' God caused ALL living creatures to exist.

So when you say it is our choice to be sinful, you are lying for your god. Or you don't know how to read. Which is it?

First part, lying for God, defeats the whole purpose (and logic), and still being a believer. Perhaps if I didn't really believe in God, then in this case you could say "I would be lying for the establishment or church" instead.

 

[Hermit]

Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.

You still have not explained how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us". Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

 

[Learner]

Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.

You still have not explained how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

Thanks for bringing this back to my attention, much has happened. Unfortunately through such disasters; these were forewarned and to be expected, since death came into the world, as it read in Genesis. The reconciliation, although not preferably immediate, comes fom the bigger picture; is how I best explain it. Who else but only God Himself has that power and means to bring back to life All the dead? As written, He has declared His promise, that He will wipe all the sorrows and tears away etc..

If it says He loves us in the bible, which it does; then I haven't made that "assertion" . He declared the promise to us, as sinners the afterlife. AND rather than ridding the lot of us from existence because we are sinners; creating the perfect human 2.0 without us.....

We are the inclusion by God's intention, to be those humans 2.0.

Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.

 

[Hermit]

Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.

You still have not explained how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

Thanks for bringing this back to my attention, much has happened. Unfortunately through such disasters; these were forewarned and to be expected, since death came into the world, as it read in Genesis. The reconciliation, although not preferably immediate, comes fom the bigger picture; is how I best explain it. Who else but only God Himself has that power and means to bring back to life All the dead? As written, He has declared His promise, that He will wipe all the sorrows and tears away etc..

If it says He loves us in the bible, which it does; then I haven't made that "assertion" . He declared the promise to us, as sinners the afterlife. AND rather than ridding the lot of us from existence because we are sinners; creating the perfect human 2.0 without us.....

We are the inclusion by God's intention, to be those humans 2.0.

Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.

So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.

 

[Learner]

Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.

You still have not explained how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

Thanks for bringing this back to my attention, much has happened. Unfortunately through such disasters; these were forewarned and to be expected, since death came into the world, as it read in Genesis. The reconciliation, although not preferably immediate, comes fom the bigger picture; is how I best explain it. Who else but only God Himself has that power and means to bring back to life All the dead? As written, He has declared His promise, that He will wipe all the sorrows and tears away etc..

If it says He loves us in the bible, which it does; then I haven't made that "assertion" . He declared the promise to us, as sinners the afterlife. AND rather than ridding the lot of us from existence because we are sinners; creating the perfect human 2.0 without us.....

We are the inclusion by God's intention, to be those humans 2.0.

Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.

So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.

"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.

 

[Hermit]

Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.

You still have not explained how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

Thanks for bringing this back to my attention, much has happened. Unfortunately through such disasters; these were forewarned and to be expected, since death came into the world, as it read in Genesis. The reconciliation, although not preferably immediate, comes fom the bigger picture; is how I best explain it. Who else but only God Himself has that power and means to bring back to life All the dead? As written, He has declared His promise, that He will wipe all the sorrows and tears away etc..

If it says He loves us in the bible, which it does; then I haven't made that "assertion" . He declared the promise to us, as sinners the afterlife. AND rather than ridding the lot of us from existence because we are sinners; creating the perfect human 2.0 without us.....

We are the inclusion by God's intention, to be those humans 2.0.

Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.

So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.

"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.

Which part of that post gave you the impression I had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.."? Here it is to save you from having to click on the link:

God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?

This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.

 

[Learner]

Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.

So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.

"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.

Which part of that post gave you the impression I had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.."? Here it is to save you from having to click on the link:

God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?

This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.

Cheers, whether or not you take to it; you have registered that viewpoint at least in your previous post... "satan's world" which of course contradicts the notion "God kills indescriminately".

 

[Hermit]

Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.

So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.

"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.

Which part of that post gave you the impression I had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.."? Here it is to save you from having to click on the link:

God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?

This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.

Cheers, whether or not you take to it; you have registered that viewpoint at least in your previous post... "satan's world" which of course contradicts the notion "God kills indescriminately".

Learner, I had not taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world, no matter how desperately you interpret my post as meaning that. So, back to my request: Please explain how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

 

[Learner]

Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.

So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.

"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.

Which part of that post gave you the impression I had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.."? Here it is to save you from having to click on the link:

God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?

This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.

Cheers, whether or not you take to it; you have registered that viewpoint at least in your previous post... "satan's world" which of course contradicts the notion "God kills indescriminately".

Learner, I had not taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world, no matter how desperately you interpret my post as meaning that. So, back to my request: Please explain how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

Read the post of the bigger picture, that's my explanation. If you haven't cotton on yet... It is I who's taken to the notion... meaning you're asking me the wrong question.

 

[Hermit]

Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.

So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.

"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.

Which part of that post gave you the impression I had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.."? Here it is to save you from having to click on the link:

God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?

This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.

Cheers, whether or not you take to it; you have registered that viewpoint at least in your previous post... "satan's world" which of course contradicts the notion "God kills indescriminately".

Learner, I had not taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world, no matter how desperately you interpret my post as meaning that. So, back to my request: Please explain how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

Read the post of the bigger picture, that's my explanation. If you haven't cotton on yet... It is I who's taken to the notion... meaning you're asking me the wrong question.

Your post mentioning the bigger picture does not explain my original query. One more time, from the beginning: I quoted you as asserting "God loves us", and you wrote you had no doubt about it. I replied with a picture showing a few of the more than a quarter million people that were killed by a tsunami in 2005 and asked how you reconcile such massive cruelty with your assertion. The way I see it is that if there is a God, this event is evidence of him not loving us. His alleged absence is no excuse.

 

[atrib]

Learner, I had not taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world, no matter how desperately you interpret my post as meaning that. So, back to my request: Please explain how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

He won't answer the question. His brain can't parse the idea that a god that indiscriminately kills a quarter million people, or allows them to be indiscriminately killed, is not a god that loves us. That conflicts with what he has been indoctrinated into believing: "God loves us". Since he knows he can't answer the question, he will play a form of passive-aggressive dodge with you pretending that he doesn't understand what you are asking him until you give up, or he stops responding.

 

[rousseau]

I agree that religion does comfort some people, but it causes a lot of distress for some people too. For example, conservative Christians usually believe that those outside their version of Christianity are headed for hell. Some Catholics hold similar views. I used to feel sorry for my mother because according to her religion, I'm going to hell to be tortured. However, she grew wise with age. She told my husband when she was in her early 80s that there was no way she could believe that I was going to hell. I felt good for her.

I can't imagine believing such nonsense, but if I did, it would be painful to think that friends and family members would be punished eternally for not sharing my beliefs. That's an element of the beauty of atheism. We don't see other people as headed for some terrible punishment due to their beliefs.

Religion is often like a crutch that some need to help them navigate the difficulties of life. Some are just drawn to mythology and others need a community of like minded people. And, sometimes religion provides an organized outlet to do charitable works. I accept that religion can be helpful or destructive, depending on the nature of the mythology.

The only thing that I might miss is having a community. I think having a community of like minded people probably keeps some Christians in the fold. I've been a member of many atheist or humanist groups in real life, but we aren't very good at keeping the cats herded, so I've seen some of my groups fade away.

This is a good reminder. I do sometimes forget that Christianity can be a little more intense in some places.

 

[Jarhyn]

Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.

So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.

"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.

Which part of that post gave you the impression I had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.."? Here it is to save you from having to click on the link:

God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?

This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.

Cheers, whether or not you take to it; you have registered that viewpoint at least in your previous post... "satan's world" which of course contradicts the notion "God kills indescriminately".

Learner, I had not taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world, no matter how desperately you interpret my post as meaning that. So, back to my request: Please explain how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

Read the post of the bigger picture, that's my explanation. If you haven't cotton on yet... It is I who's taken to the notion... meaning you're asking me the wrong question.

Your post mentioning the bigger picture does not explain my original query. One more time, from the beginning: I quoted you as asserting "God loves us", and you wrote you had no doubt about it. I replied with a picture showing a few of the more than a quarter million people that were killed by a tsunami in 2005 and asked how you reconcile such massive cruelty with your assertion. The way I see it is that if there is a God, this event is evidence of him not loving us. His alleged absence is no excuse.

So in order to address a cosmology that I doubt exists at all, I generally tend to look at cosmologies that absolutely do exist.

Like my stupid little game which is actually a contained universe in a jar.

What can certainly be said is that there is at least one multiverse and THIS is the host of the one we can see, our actions creating a great many leaves of instance of particular story, of sequences operating upon the trunk of it's physics.

I think of the convocation before the Indy 500, a light religious prayer asking for god to protect the drivers. When in fact, God has been hit or miss over the years. That in fact, it was science and engineering that saved the lives of Tom Sneva and Kevin Cogan (specifically at Indy), and prevented greater injury to so many other drivers. Eddie Sachs, Gordon Smiley, Scott Brayton weren't as lucky though.

But every year, they keep asking for God's protection. No thought or thanks to those who put in the Safer Barrier, designed the cockpit (Grosjean's life was saved because of all sorts of tech in his F1 crash), fire suits, etc...

What's the takeaway lesson? For me it's that people are superstitious and still like to believe in magic. Asking a magic creature to protect me from danger is evidence enough. It just feels good I suppose, like when I feel good watching a movie or reading a book. But I can feel good without living my life as if the magic is real. I can switch modes. Some people cannot.

In the case mentioned earlier by rousseau it would be interesting to ask such a person if he really believes in all the magic or is just finding comfort in the community and the act of pretending.

I'm going to rephrase this as "asking an object of my own neural infrastructure to be attentive in parallel to my own attention, and to make me consciously aware of those dangers or even acting 'reflexively' or 'unconscously' or 'subconsciously'"

When you look at it like that and accept that whatever-it-is is a part of "the larger you" and may operate similarly to the way you do as a part of "the larger you", and have access to the same "larger you" that you do, or at least lesser suggestive access...

Well, then the "magic" IS real, and also quite literally "insane".