The Professor and the Undergrad

[AthenaAwakened]

Should Professors Be Allowed To Date Students? One Professor Says ‘Yes’

Now, an increasing number of schools are outright banning relationships – even consensual ones – between professors and undergraduates. The list of schools with these policies in place has grown to include Stanford, Harvard, Yale, The College of William and Mary, the University of Connecticut and Northwestern University.

Laura Kipnis, a professor in Northwestern’s School of Communication, criticized her school’s policy in a controversial essay in the Chronicle of Higher Education, arguing that the ban assumes that professors are predators, and also that these policies infantilize students.

Her essay was met with outrage by some students, two of whom filed a Title IX suit against her, claiming Kipnis was retaliating against students at her school who had filed a complaint against a professor. They also said she created a “chilling effect” on students’ ability to report sexual misconduct. The suits were eventually investigated and dismissed, and she responded with a second Chronicle of Higher Education article, responding to her critics and outlining what happened after the suits were filed.

Dating between students and professors can have traumatic consequences OR lead to marriage (my great grandmother's second husband had been her teacher and principal when she was in school) OR be nothing more than a bad or good memory. And because how things turnout varies dependent on the individuals involved, I thing Kipnis has a valid point.

 

[prideandfall]

Dating between students and professors can have traumatic consequences OR lead to marriage (my great grandmother's second husband had been her teacher and principal when she was in school) OR be nothing more than a bad or good memory. And because how things turnout varies dependent on the individuals involved, I thing Kipnis has a valid point.

agreed.
but, and i don't want to side-track this thread out of the gate and derail it into a whole other topic of conversation, if you think about it this is basically the same argument when it comes to statutory rape laws: an assumption the older person is always a predator, an assumption the younger person is always a victim, and a ban on all contact or conduct because "reasons".
(or, at least, this is what it brings to mind for me - reading the article, it struck me how you could easily noun-swap a lot of it and present the exact same argument)

anyways, another broader point it brings to my mind is how messed up it is the amount of power we allow employers to have over our personal lives, and wondering if the feeling that this is getting worse these days is in any way true, or just one of those perception bias things that everyone thinks about the times that they live in currently.

 

[dismal]

Some good porn comes out of these relationships too.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Dating between students and professors can have traumatic consequences OR lead to marriage (my great grandmother's second husband had been her teacher and principal when she was in school) OR be nothing more than a bad or good memory. And because how things turnout varies dependent on the individuals involved, I thing Kipnis has a valid point.

A policy which recognizes the risk of coercion in certain relationships does not imply that all such relationships are coercive; it merely acknowledges a built in risk. Also, I think there is an additional issue of bias when professors and students are too closely emotionally linked. Where possible, you'd think you'd want to avoid that.

I won't try to make some iron-clad statement that post secondary institutions need to categorically ban romantic relationships between professors and students (largely because I don't care much one way or the other), but I would not be able to agree that the impropriety of teacher-student relationships necessarily assumes those relationships are predatory in nature.

 

[jab]

What do these Universities, or colleges, do in the case of spouses who become students there after marrying a prof--which is the case with my marriage, and here the spouse's tuition is covered under the terms of the prof's employment? special arrangements have to be made should the spouse then enroll in one of the prop's courses--which won't be the case with me.

 

[laughing dog]

Do these policies forbid all consensual relationships between professors and students or only those where the student is in the professor's class or employment? What if the professor is married to the student?

Where I work, you can be fired if you have a consensual relationship with a student in your class or employment but not otherwise.

 

[prideandfall]

Do these policies forbid all consensual relationships between professors and students or only those where the student is in the professor's class or employment? What if the professor is married to the student?

Where I work, you can be fired if you have a consensual relationship with a student in your class or employment but not otherwise.

that makes total sense. if you're in a situation where it's ostensibly a meritocracy, i think it's reasonable to say that the natural temptation to "help" your partner would be greater than the expense of monitoring all pairings to watch for that would justify in order to allow the cases where it didn't happen.

 

[Bronzeage]

A topical passage from my current project:

The walk back to the dorm was spent in a moral monologue. There was a definite ethical spectrum when it came to relationships between students and faculty. It was well understood that the professor of a class you were taking that semester was absolutely forbidden, no exceptions. A professor in your major college was only less taboo, since you might end up in his class in another semester. It became vague when professors in other colleges were considered, but probably allowed. A graduate assistant wasn’t a professor. He was really more student than staff, but was a tutor bound by the professor’s creed which commanded no sex with current students? It seemed he would not be, but it would cost her another twenty four dollars to find out.

I grew up in an academic atmosphere. Engineering college was not the place to look for a faculty-student sex, mostly because there were 99 men for every woman engineering student, and that coed was likely to be the daughter of a senior professor. I later discovered the Liberal Arts Colleges things were much different. There were relationships between professors and students of either sex. I don't remember any great scandals.

 

[fast]

Do these policies forbid all consensual relationships between professors and students or only those where the student is in the professor's class or employment? What if the professor is married to the student?

Where I work, you can be fired if you have a consensual relationship with a student in your class or employment but not otherwise.

that makes total sense. if you're in a situation where it's ostensibly a meritocracy, i think it's reasonable to say that the natural temptation to "help" your partner would be greater than the expense of monitoring all pairings to watch for that would justify in order to allow the cases where it didn't happen.

I think the natural tendency is for the professor to place a higher expectation on the student with whom he or she is in a relationship with.

 

[credoconsolans]

Do these policies forbid all consensual relationships between professors and students or only those where the student is in the professor's class or employment? What if the professor is married to the student?

Where I work, you can be fired if you have a consensual relationship with a student in your class or employment but not otherwise.

In my college, it was only forbidden when the student was on your teaching track. Once they were through, you could fuck away. I know, I had to finish my core classes before I could date one of the assistant profs.

 

[NobleSavage]

When I was in college the BS 101 classes were split up: lectures by a full prof and and small groups led by a grad student or "TA". I had the hots for my econ TA and she seamed interested, but told me she felt uncomfortable about the situation. It took me about 24 hrs to get switched to another section with a different TA and stay in the main class. I think that was reasonable.

 

[thebeave]

Some good porn comes out of these relationships too.

link please

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A topical passage from my current project:

The walk back to the dorm was spent in a moral monologue. There was a definite ethical spectrum when it came to relationships between students and faculty. It was well understood that the professor of a class you were taking that semester was absolutely forbidden, no exceptions. A professor in your major college was only less taboo, since you might end up in his class in another semester. It became vague when professors in other colleges were considered, but probably allowed. A graduate assistant wasn’t a professor. He was really more student than staff, but was a tutor bound by the professor’s creed which commanded no sex with current students? It seemed he would not be, but it would cost her another twenty four dollars to find out.

I grew up in an academic atmosphere. Engineering college was not the place to look for a faculty-student sex, mostly because there were 99 men for every woman engineering student, and that coed was likely to be the daughter of a senior professor. I later discovered the Liberal Arts Colleges things were much different. There were relationships between professors and students of either sex. I don't remember any great scandals.

A reasonable standard. Don't date any current or prospective professors.

If the interest is there wait until the final grades are in and then see how things go.

 

[Metaphor]

Should Professors Be Allowed To Date Students? One Professor Says ‘Yes’

Now, an increasing number of schools are outright banning relationships – even consensual ones – between professors and undergraduates. The list of schools with these policies in place has grown to include Stanford, Harvard, Yale, The College of William and Mary, the University of Connecticut and Northwestern University.

Laura Kipnis, a professor in Northwestern’s School of Communication, criticized her school’s policy in a controversial essay in the Chronicle of Higher Education, arguing that the ban assumes that professors are predators, and also that these policies infantilize students.

Her essay was met with outrage by some students, two of whom filed a Title IX suit against her, claiming Kipnis was retaliating against students at her school who had filed a complaint against a professor. They also said she created a “chilling effect” on students’ ability to report sexual misconduct. The suits were eventually investigated and dismissed, and she responded with a second Chronicle of Higher Education article, responding to her critics and outlining what happened after the suits were filed.

Dating between students and professors can have traumatic consequences OR lead to marriage (my great grandmother's second husband had been her teacher and principal when she was in school) OR be nothing more than a bad or good memory. And because how things turnout varies dependent on the individuals involved, I thing Kipnis has a valid point.

While I was getting my Psychology Masters degree, a female friend (in the same degree as me) began to date a Psych professor. She was not enrolled in any courses he taught, and they're still together today.

I'd have a grave problem, however, with a personal relationship between a course convenor and a student in a course they are teaching and assessing.

 

[Togo]

The problem is the power disparity, and the relationship messing up the student teacher-dynamic. If things are arranged so that the two don't have direct authority over each other, or responsibility for each other, then I don't see the problem.

 

[Derec]

A policy which recognizes the risk of coercion in certain relationships does not imply that all such relationships are coercive; it merely acknowledges a built in risk.

If you want to ban relationships where there is a possibility of coercion you might as well ban all relationships. Especially when you define "coercion" very broadly.

Also, reasonable people can disagree about proper student-professor dating policies. What is much more disturbing is the chilling effect of you finding yourself as a target of a Title IX lawsuit just because some delicate flower is offended by what you wrote.

 

[laughing dog]

What is much more disturbing is the chilling effect of you finding yourself as a target of a Title IX lawsuit just because some delicate flower is offended by what you wrote.

It is a bit unsettling, but a Title IX complaint filed at a University is not a lawsuit. Here is the link to Northwestern's process and possible resolutions: http://www.northwestern.edu/provost/policies/title-ix/file-a-complaint.html

 

[Derec]

It is a bit unsettling, but a Title IX complaint filed at a University is not a lawsuit. Here is the link to Northwestern's process and possible resolutions: http://www.northwestern.edu/provost/policies/title-ix/file-a-complaint.html

The article talks about a "suit" but having to go before another college kangaroo court is probably even more unsettling in this age of "trigger warnings" and "safe spaces".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A policy which recognizes the risk of coercion in certain relationships does not imply that all such relationships are coercive; it merely acknowledges a built in risk.

If you want to ban relationships where there is a possibility of coercion you might as well ban all relationships. Especially when you define "coercion" very broadly.

It isn't just coercion. It messes up the entire dynamic in a classroom if one of the students is fucking the teacher.

Also, reasonable people can disagree about proper student-professor dating policies. What is much more disturbing is the chilling effect of you finding yourself as a target of a Title IX lawsuit just because some delicate flower is offended by what you wrote.

So you just assume female students filed them? The text says "students".

 

[laughing dog]

It is a bit unsettling, but a Title IX complaint filed at a University is not a lawsuit. Here is the link to Northwestern's process and possible resolutions: http://www.northwestern.edu/provost/policies/title-ix/file-a-complaint.html

The article talks about a "suit" but having to go before another college kangaroo court is probably even more unsettling in this age of "trigger warnings" and "safe spaces".

Since she had been cleared of a previous complaint, and has not changed her views, it would seem your characterization of the process as rather inaccurate.