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The Remarkable Progress of Renewable Energy

If one wishes to use arguments than that, then one can go all the way back to the discovery of radioactivity in 1896.

Costs for both wind turbines and photovoltaic cells have been dropping dramatically since the late 1970's and early 1980's, and from the looks of it, they will continue to do so. That does not seem like the behavior of a mature industry to me.
 
If one wishes to use arguments than that, then one can go all the way back to the discovery of radioactivity in 1896.
1896 being later than the 1880s. So demonstrating that I am correct - any fair and equivalent comparison has nuclear as the newest of the three technologies.
Costs for both wind turbines and photovoltaic cells have been dropping dramatically since the late 1970's and early 1980's, and from the looks of it, they will continue to do so. That does not seem like the behavior of a mature industry to me.

Fuel costs are one area of steadily increasing efficiency and cost reduction. For instance, in Spain the cost of nuclear electricity was reduced by 29% over the period 1995-2001. Cost reductions of 40% were achieved by boosting enrichment levels and burn-up. Prospectively, a further 8% increase in burn-up will give another 5% reduction in fuel cost.

...

There are other possible savings. For example, if used fuel is reprocessed and the recovered plutonium and uranium is used in mixed oxide (MOX) fuel, more energy can be extracted. The costs of achieving this are large, but are offset by MOX fuel not needing enrichment and particularly by the smaller amount of high-level wastes produced at the end. Seven UO2 fuel assemblies give rise to one MOX assembly plus some vitrified high-level waste, resulting in only about 35% of the volume, mass and cost of disposal.
(Source)

Also:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor

It would appear that none of the three can justly or reasonably be described as 'a mature technology'.

The facts simply do not support subsidies for wind and solar but not for nuclear, on the basis of technological age or maturity. Arguments for and against apply either equally for all three, or slightly favour nuclear subsidies over those for wind and solar.
 
1896 being later than the 1880s. So demonstrating that I am correct
Grasping at straws.

Fuel costs are one area of steadily increasing efficiency and cost reduction. For instance, in Spain the cost of nuclear electricity was reduced by 29% over the period 1995-2001. Cost reductions of 40% were achieved by boosting enrichment levels and burn-up. Prospectively, a further 8% increase in burn-up will give another 5% reduction in fuel cost.

...

There are other possible savings. For example, if used fuel is reprocessed and the recovered plutonium and uranium is used in mixed oxide (MOX) fuel, more energy can be extracted. The costs of achieving this are large, but are offset by MOX fuel not needing enrichment and particularly by the smaller amount of high-level wastes produced at the end. Seven UO2 fuel assemblies give rise to one MOX assembly plus some vitrified high-level waste, resulting in only about 35% of the volume, mass and cost of disposal.
(Source)
Not nearly as big as what has been achieved with wind turbines and photovoltaic cells since 1980.

Two can play the game of citing technologies that are being developed. I can cite improved batteries in support of wind and solar electricity generation.
 
"Quasi-religious nonsense" indeed!

Engineering nuclear reactors is undergoing a rethink. New designs, new ideas. So that mitigates against building new reactors from old and expensive designs. The big problem is as Westinghouse demonstrated, it is easy to botch up new ways of doing nuclear reactors.

So as it stands, experts are telling us we are a decade away from new designs, and then another decade to implement those designs. If possible. Meanwhile, in that time, a couple of more of our current reactors will reach their designated end of life. and will have to be decommissioned or rebuilt at huge costs.

Meanwhile, wind power will continue to grow and solar, but at a lessor rate for solar. From a real life perspective, nuclear is not an attractive prospect for the near future. And nuclear is needing subsidies to survive as it is. Will future plants need subsidies? Will states allow building of plants that will need such large subsidies to build, maintain and operate? Probably not in wind rich states.

10 years to new designs, 10 years to build. Texas gets 17% of it's electrical power from wind and in 20 years that will be 50% - 60% at this rate. Can nuclear compete in Texas? Coal, long term, cannot.
 
Grasping at straws facts.
FTFY.

The claim you made has been demonstrated to be false, by use of factual information. That's not 'grasping at straws' :rolleyes:
Not nearly as big as what has been achieved with wind turbines and photovoltaic cells since 1980.
Hardly surprising, given the vast disparity in funding available.
Two can play the game of citing technologies that are being developed. I can cite improved batteries in support of wind and solar electricity generation.

Sure, you can do that. But the question is not whether these technologies are developed; It is whether their relative maturity justifies large subsidies for some, but not for all. And the answer is that it does not. There may be other justifications for that; But the one presented has been shown to be false, so you need to either find another one; change your position; or be wrong. Those are your only options at this point.
 
"Quasi-religious nonsense" indeed!
Yes, indeed.
Engineering nuclear reactors is undergoing a rethink. New designs, new ideas. So that mitigates against building new reactors from old and expensive designs.
The same is true of wind and solar generation. And massively more true of storage - we haven't got an effective and affordable storage option at anything CLOSE to the scale required to compete with nuclear power, and we may NEVER have such a thing.
The big problem is as Westinghouse demonstrated, it is easy to botch up new ways of doing nuclear reactors.

So as it stands, experts are telling us we are a decade away from new designs, and then another decade to implement those designs. If possible.
And yet we have perfectly good existing designs to fill the gap. Unlike the intermittent generatoirs, who have no solution at all for the storage problem other than hope (and burning natural gas)
Meanwhile, in that time, a couple of more of our current reactors will reach their designated end of life. and will have to be decommissioned or rebuilt at huge costs.
Yes. But not at unknown or unexpected cost, and not at commercially unreasonable cost. So who cares? The only reason costs are so high is political - it could be changed overnight at the stroke of a pen. In other words, it's expensive because and only because religious zealots like yourself want it to be.
Meanwhile, wind power will continue to grow and solar, but at a lessor rate for solar.
Leading to the consumption of vasts amounts of natural gas, with the inherent environmental problems of fracking and climate change. These 'solutions' don't solve the underlying problem.
From a real life perspective, nuclear is not an attractive prospect for the near future. And nuclear is needing subsidies to survive as it is.
That's simply not true, for the reasons given above (which you ignored because they contradict your faith)
Will future plants need subsidies? Will states allow building of plants that will need such large subsidies to build, maintain and operate? Probably not in wind rich states.
As long as nobody gets subsidized nor unreasonably penalized, it won't matter. Nuclear power is the only solution to the problem of providing continuous power in the quantities needed for modern civilization without carbon emissions. If people don't give a shit about the environment then they can play around with gas backed wind and gas backed solar; If we do give a shit, then we have to build nuclear plants.
10 years to new designs, 10 years to build. Texas gets 17% of it's electrical power from wind and in 20 years that will be 50% - 60% at this rate. Can nuclear compete in Texas? Coal, long term, cannot.

The gas companies are going to LOVE Texas. The people who suffer blackouts, not so much, but you don't care about them, or the environment, as long as that nasty nuclear power, which you have NO basis to oppose (other, apparently than the high costs THAT YOU MADE HAPPEN) doesn't get used.

It's fucking ridiculous. For sixty years, the "environmentalists" have opposed nuclear power on any grounds they could think of, using lies, disinformation and irrational fear, because they were terrified that it was so cheap that abundant power would become available and would lead to a population boom (particularly in the Third World, where energy poverty meant that only nuclear power could be cheap enough to make a difference). Slowly the lies and fear have been stripped back, and now the only opposing argument you can rely in is that it is 'too expensive' - Which is rather pathetic, given that the initial fear was due to it being too cheap.

The early anti-nuke protesters were horrified by the prospect of cheap electricity. They were terrified by population growth. And now they have fucked themselves and the world over, because of their (it turns out baseless) terror and evil anti-humanism.

What a bunch of cunts. They fucked the people, and they fucked the environment, because they worried that billions of Africans and Indians would overwhelm the world. If you are not outraged about this, then you haven't understood it.

Nuclear power is going to happen, because it is the only option that doesn't fuck up the environment, or civilization, or both. The only question is how much pain we much go through before deciding that we have to do this. As you point out, it can take 15 to 20 years to bring a nuclear power plant online. The best time to start was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.
 
As of now, nuclear isn't really going much anywhere. The old way of making them, each designed from scratch and built from scratch is not an economically viable procedure. Again, attempts by Westinghouse to get away from that became an engineering fiasco. Sorry if that fact offends you. It is a fact that Nuclear plants NOW in operation need large subsidies. And there are no guarantees that will change in the future. If and when the nuclear energy sector can create a new design, and actually manufacture them without Westinghouse type basic fuck ups, remains to be seen. I suspect that there will have to be a lot of proof they won't botch it this time to get anybody who wants to build one. Sorry, but that is the way it's going to be. Down at the bottom of it all, it's an engineering problem.

For us states blessed with wind resources, wind is the better future. And gas is a mature, cheap and trouble free technology for us states with lots of gas.

Storage of energy is something a lot of well heeled people are working on, and I suspect that it will be solved long before the new nuclear designs can be created and built.

Solar? Next week I have a doctor's appointment. Out the office window, I can see the local VA hospital. All that hospital's large parking lots are now covered with steel structures where a vast array of shiny new solar cells has been installed. Solar works on a local level well enough. They are not waiting on nuclear. That VA hospital will save $350,000 a year on their electrical bill.

One of the biggest problems in Houston with solar is the the local home owner's associations refuse to allow home owners to install "unsightly" solar arrays. Dumb asses.

The problem with nuclear is that it isn't ready to move forward quickly and economically at this point. And they do not seem to be solving their issues any time soon. Here in the wind rich states, nobody is waiting on nuclear.
 
As of now, nuclear isn't really going much anywhere. The old way of making them, each designed from scratch and built from scratch is not an economically viable procedure. Again, attempts by Westinghouse to get away from that became an engineering fiasco. Sorry if that fact offends you.
I am never offended by facts. And it seems very likely that Small Modular Reactors made on a 'build to order' rather than 'design to order' basis are the future. See https://www.power-eng.com/articles/2018/04/nuscale-smr-becomes-first-to-complete-nrc-phase-one-review.html. Nuclear is going places you may be unaware of; Including SMR designs going into Utah, and various Gen III and IV designs into India, China, and South East Asia.

It is a fact that Nuclear plants NOW in operation need large subsidies.
That's not a fact.
And there are no guarantees that will change in the future. If and when the nuclear energy sector can create a new design, and actually manufacture them without Westinghouse type basic fuck ups, remains to be seen.
Your obsession with Westinghouse is noted, but not actually important. All industries have successes and failures.
I suspect that there will have to be a lot of proof they won't botch it this time to get anybody who wants to build one. Sorry, but that is the way it's going to be. Down at the bottom of it all, it's an engineering problem.
Well, while you are bitching about it, engineers are solving it.
For us states blessed with wind resources, wind is the better future. And gas is a mature, cheap and trouble free technology for us states with lots of gas.
Sure, as long as you don't pretend to care about the environment.
Storage of energy is something a lot of well heeled people are working on, and I suspect that it will be solved long before the new nuclear designs can be created and built.
I suspect that you are very badly mistaken.
Solar? Next week I have a doctor's appointment. Out the office window, I can see the local VA hospital. All that hospital's large parking lots are now covered with steel structures where a vast array of shiny new solar cells has been installed. Solar works on a local level well enough. They are not waiting on nuclear. That VA hospital will save $350,000 a year on their electrical bill.
Small amounts of wind and solar in niche applications (particularly solar for refrigeration and air conditioning) are an excellent idea. But not a large scale solution for a modern civilization. I can foresee a future with about 80% nuclear and the rest wind and solar. But more than about 20% intermittent power I cannot see being practical without incredibly inexpensive and massive storage options that are sci-fi right now.
One of the biggest problems in Houston with solar is the the local home owner's associations refuse to allow home owners to install "unsightly" solar arrays. Dumb asses.
American HOAs are completely nuts. But they are a cultural artefact, not a law of nature - the rest of the world doesn't have them or want them. We prefer freedom. ;)
The problem with nuclear is that it isn't ready to move forward quickly and economically at this point.
It's a lot more ready than intermittent renewables. Unless you like burning gas.
And they do not seem to be solving their issues any time soon. Here in the wind rich states, nobody is waiting on nuclear.

No, you are burning fossil fuels instead, and pretending that this is not a disaster in the making. Good luck with that.
 
I am quite aware plants are being made overseas. Good luck to India, Taiwan, Russia, et al.

But here in good ol' Texas, wind is king for the while. It is going to take years for nuclear to get into the game here. We have 2 new plants being built in Georgia. A wind resource poor state. I would like gas to be replaced by solar and wind, but that is decades away.
 
I am quite aware plants are being made overseas. Good luck to India, Taiwan, Russia, et al.

But here in good ol' Texas, wind is king for the while. It is going to take years for nuclear to get into the game here. We have 2 new plants being built in Georgia. A wind resource poor state. I would like gas to be replaced by solar and wind, but that is decades away.

Solar and wind not only fail to replace gas; They cause more gas to be burned. Frackers love wind power. Educated environmentalists should hate it. But they appear to be few and far between.

Here's a video showing real time CO2 emissions from Europe by country. Green represents low emissions.

This is what matters - the actual emissions being generated. Not effort, not sanctimony, not attitude nor smugness; Results. The only way to save the environment is to emilate the consistently green nations on this map. Germany and Denmark show what happens when your nation is fully committed to massive investments in wind power. France and Sweden rely instead on nuclear and hydro.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6EOoC_kKI0[/YOUTUBE]
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
Again, attempts by Westinghouse to get away from that became an engineering fiasco.
Which attempts do you have in mind, specifically?

Westinghouse tried to set up a pre-fabricated plant design where nuclear plants could be manufactured on a standardized design and the pieces transported to the construction site and erected. The idea was to get away from designed per site, erected on site system which was expensive. It turned into a fiasco. This helped Westinghouse go bankrupt. A good idea, poorly executed. Sub-assemblies with bad dimensions that did not fit together as designed etc.
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
Again, attempts by Westinghouse to get away from that became an engineering fiasco.
Which attempts do you have in mind, specifically?

Westinghouse tried to set up a pre-fabricated plant design where nuclear plants could be manufactured on a standardized design and the pieces transported to the construction site and erected. The idea was to get away from designed per site, erected on site system which was expensive. It turned into a fiasco. This helped Westinghouse go bankrupt. A good idea, poorly executed. Sub-assemblies with bad dimensions that did not fit together as designed etc.
Are you talking about the AP1000, or Westinghouse's SMR?
 
https://about.bnef.com/new-energy-outlook/

“Wind and solar are set to surge to almost “50 by 50” – 50% of world generation by 2050 – on the back of precipitous reductions in cost, and the advent of cheaper and cheaper batteries that will enable electricity to be stored and discharged to meet shifts in demand and supply. Coal shrinks to just 11% of global electricity generation by 2050.”

...


 
With Google Scholar, I searched for "photovoltaic cells price" before 1965, and I found Photovoltaic solar energy converters for space vehicles - Present capabilities and objectives - IEEE Journals & Magazine from 1960. The blurb in the Google Scholar search results:
… Ibid., vol. 78, Nov. 1959, pp. 457-61. Photovoltaic Solar Energy Converters for Space
Vehicles—Present Capabilities and Objectives … Large-scale production of solar cells should
reduce the price of solar power delivered to below $300/watt …
Using the US Consumer Price Index, that is $2550/watt in 2018 dollars. Production costs are nowadays as low as 50 cents per watt and lower, though I found that the complete cost for installing solar panels in my area is about $4.50/watt. So by installation costs, it is a factor of 570, and by production costs, a factor of 5100.

This dramatic drop in cost is more typical of new industries than of mature industries.
 
With Google Scholar, I searched for "photovoltaic cells price" before 1965, and I found Photovoltaic solar energy converters for space vehicles - Present capabilities and objectives - IEEE Journals & Magazine from 1960. The blurb in the Google Scholar search results:
… Ibid., vol. 78, Nov. 1959, pp. 457-61. Photovoltaic Solar Energy Converters for Space
Vehicles—Present Capabilities and Objectives … Large-scale production of solar cells should
reduce the price of solar power delivered to below $300/watt …
Using the US Consumer Price Index, that is $2550/watt in 2018 dollars. Production costs are nowadays as low as 50 cents per watt and lower, though I found that the complete cost for installing solar panels in my area is about $4.50/watt. So by installation costs, it is a factor of 570, and by production costs, a factor of 5100.

This dramatic drop in cost is more typical of new industries than of mature industries.

And something very similar was happening with nuclear power until the 1970s, when the anti-human and anti-nuclear idiots succeeded in denigrating the industry and persuading politicians to intervene to prevent its success.

http://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/10/12/2169/pdf
 
Westinghouse tried to set up a pre-fabricated plant design where nuclear plants could be manufactured on a standardized design and the pieces transported to the construction site and erected. The idea was to get away from designed per site, erected on site system which was expensive. It turned into a fiasco. This helped Westinghouse go bankrupt. A good idea, poorly executed. Sub-assemblies with bad dimensions that did not fit together as designed etc.
I've been looking into that, and the costly project was the AP1000. It had serious problems, but it's not over for the AP1000. The first AP1000 is already built and getting ready to be connected to the grid later this year. China is buying reactors from Russia and France, and canceled some of the AP1000 due to delays, but the first two will be operational very probably before 2020, and more are coming (http://nuclearstreet.com/nuclear_po...1000-fuel-loading-begins-at-sanmen-npp-042501).

There is a more powerful reactor based on it, the CAP 1400 (http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN-CAP1400-reactor-vessel-passes-pressure-tests-2203174.html). In the end, China might decide that some of the other reactor designs is better (they're making a number of different ones), or they might go ahead and make several CAP 1400, or a combination of both, but at this point, the AP1000 (and its successors) is not a dead end.
 
Cost dropping by a factor of 1000???

I am impressed with how far photovoltaic cells have progressed. I remember thinking that concentrated solar-thermal electricity generation was the way to go, focusing sunlight onto a boiler with movable mirrors. That was because photovoltaic cells are made in computer-chip fashion. Then late in 2014, I noticed photovoltaic cells starting to become economically competitive with fossil fuels. I was very surprised by that.

Part of it is use of cheaper materials, even if such materials are unsuited for computer chips. The first PV cells used single-crystal silicon, and that is still used for the higher-performance ones. Lower-performance but much cheaper ones are made from a variety of materials, like polycrystalline silicon, amorphous silicon, cadmium telluride, gallium arsenide, etc.
 
Cost dropping by a factor of 1000???

I am impressed with how far photovoltaic cells have progressed. I remember thinking that concentrated solar-thermal electricity generation was the way to go, focusing sunlight onto a boiler with movable mirrors. That was because photovoltaic cells are made in computer-chip fashion. Then late in 2014, I noticed photovoltaic cells starting to become economically competitive with fossil fuels. I was very surprised by that.

Part of it is use of cheaper materials, even if such materials are unsuited for computer chips. The first PV cells used single-crystal silicon, and that is still used for the higher-performance ones. Lower-performance but much cheaper ones are made from a variety of materials, like polycrystalline silicon, amorphous silicon, cadmium telluride, gallium arsenide, etc.

They have become far cheaper - but then, they had a LONG way to fall. Nuclear power started out cheap, so it didn't have as much room for improvement.

And of course, they are only comparable on nameplate capacity - 1kW of solar cells costs a similar amount as 1kW of coal power generation - but 1kW of solar cells doesn't generate 1kW of power consistently; You are lucky if you get 200W on average, over the long term. So they are five times more expensive than their nameplate output suggests - and that's before you add in the necessary backup for when the sun isn't shining. Even if solar cells were to generate 100% of the power required by consumers, it is not useful in a modern 24x7 society without huge amounts of storage (and extra generating capacity to handle the losses associated with that storage). A week with little or no sunshine is not an uncommon occurrence; Recently the UK went 9 days with little or no wind power being generated.

A demand of 1GW can be met by a 1GW coal, gas, or nuclear facility, or by ~6GW of solar power, with ~1TWh of storage, or by ~4GW of wind power and ~2TWh of storage. Or you can replace the storage with 1GW of gas power - in which case, you need to pay for 1GW of wind or solar capacity, PLUS the 1GW gas power plant, and you get only a ~15-20% reduction in CO2 emissions over the use of gas as your sole power source. Replace your fossil fuel plant with a nuclear plant, and you get a ~95-99% cut in CO2 emissions, you need not pay for any storage, and you get to keep the lights on even if there is an outlier weather event that shuts down most of your solar or wind generation for more than the anticipated 1 or two weeks.

Even if solar and wind power were to fall in cost such that the only significant cost were the cost of the land on which they are installed, the cost of the necessary storage would still be a HUGE obstacle.

And we haven't even discussed the elephant in the room - Waste. Only nuclear power has solved its waste problem. All the others generate toxic wastes that are dumped into the environment. And battery storage (if it ever gets cheap enough to be a serious idea) will only add to this problem.

The big battery installed in South Australia by Tesla has a peak power output of 100MW, and a capacity of 129MWh, which is sufficient for 75 minutes of light winds, clouds or darkness. At an estimated cost of $100 million, the cost of enough storage for 100MW of power generated by ~600MW of installed solar or ~1.2GW of installed wind would be (conservatively) between $10 billion and $25 billion - not including the cost of the solar cells or wind turbines themselves. And we would still have to cross our fingers if there was a long period of light winds, or overcast weather - or a series of shorter periods of such conditions with insufficient time in between to recharge the batteries. So 100MW of renewables requires us to spend as much on storage alone as it costs to build a 3.2GW nuclear power plant that runs at a capacity factor of 95% in all weathers.

Paying thirty times as much is not really being 'economically competitive'. And that's just the cost of the batteries.
 
The big battery installed in South Australia by Tesla has a peak power output of 100MW, and a capacity of 129MWh, which is sufficient for 75 minutes of light winds, clouds or darkness. At an estimated cost of $100 million, the cost of enough storage for 100MW of power generated by ~600MW of installed solar or ~1.2GW of installed wind would be (conservatively) between $10 billion and $25 billion - not including the cost of the solar cells or wind turbines themselves. And we would still have to cross our fingers if there was a long period of light winds, or overcast weather - or a series of shorter periods of such conditions with insufficient time in between to recharge the batteries. So 100MW of renewables requires us to spend as much on storage alone as it costs to build a 3.2GW nuclear power plant that runs at a capacity factor of 95% in all weathers.

Paying thirty times as much is not really being 'economically competitive'. And that's just the cost of the batteries.

And what's really nasty here is that that battery won't survive any huge number of cycles. As a source of surge power it's tolerable, as a source of nighttime power it's not.
 
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