The Right to Bear Arms

[crazyfingers]

I owned a Kitana (not battle sharpened) for about ten minutes that I had won from a local freestyle event back when I lived in Bayshore Long Island NY. The event was on a Saturday from 12 noon to 4pm on W Main St. It was packaged in paper and bubble wrap. Anyhow, I lived about 15 minutes walk from the place and got stopped right around the block from my apartment by the police. This was under Guliani's stop and frisk. Anyhow after giving my ID and having my pockets checked and thousands of questions about where I'm coming from, what's in the package, where I'm going, what's in the package, what's my name, what's in the package, and if I'm into any drugs and other bullshit from officers in unmarked cars. After telling them it's a Katana a thousand times and trying to answer two other officers at the same time I tried explaining that I just won it at the clothing store not far from here & I can show you. They confiscated it without giving me a ticket saying it was illegal and that I should be grateful I'm not being arrested. When asked what do I have to do to get it back they said I'd have to go to the police station in Brentwood on 5th ave to retrieve it (which was not walking distance away). Anyhow, I took the day off work Thursday (Cause that's the soonest I was able to go), took the bus there and when I asked the officer at the front desk they said they have nothing; no records of the stop no records of anything at all & had me fill out a report that obviously got trashed as soon as I left the place because I was given a case number that later no one was able to find in their system.

This thread brought back a memory. Pardon the derail.

So you were racially profiled, treated different than perhaps I would have been and then robbed by the cops. That sounds like Guliani's America. Or America. It sucks.

A quick look at NY laws suggest that it's legal to own a sward but not to carry it. The people who you won it from should have informed you and lent you a lock-box.

Still cops suck. They had no reason to stop you personally if it was all packaged up.

Yeah, I already accepted that it was not something I should be carrying around. I even remember admitting to them that I understand where they are coming from and said look at the address on my ID. I'm just around the corner from home & welcomed them to follow me if they wanted to but noooooo. I had to lose a Kitana that day.

Still.. the navel sword of my great grandfather i posted above. Last August my uncle decided that it was time to pass it down the family line. I picked it up at his place in Maine and took it home to Massachusetts. I guess it was illegal to take it in my car. I never even thought about it.

But I bet that had highway patrol pulled me over, and if they even looked, after I'd explained my ignorance they'd have just told me to get it straight home and then check the laws. It's not sharpened just like yours. I'd still have mine.

 

[steve_bank]

For the average person a carry gun is basically useless against someone who simply intends to kill you. However, killing is usually not the primary objective of the criminal. If you are being confronted by someone with a weapon the primary intent is usually either robbery or rape. Robbers who find you don't have what they want sometimes kill in anger, and robbers who realize their identity was revealed sometimes kill to avoid witnesses, but neither is likely to start out killing you. Likewise, a rapist may kill to avoid witnesses but very few are going to do that before raping.



Two-legged critters were a substantial threat in the backcountry?? What sort of place did you live??

Today depending on where I am going I carry pepper spray. I can't drive anymore and I walk or take public transit. We are near a large homeless camp and residents have been assaulted. I also practice with my cane, breaking a knee. I took some training in dealing with a knife.

A large homeless camp would make me want to carry.

I know someone who carries a collapsible whip. Like a radio antenna. Another resident carries a gun on his ankle, but he would never get it out in time.

An ankle gun as their primary weapon?! I agree with your assessment.

The best defense is awareness of your surroundings. Avoidance.

For a guy I generally agree. I can understand a woman carrying anywhere.

Actually the situation in Seattle counters your assertion on gubs abd criminals.

I live a short walk to downtown on a main street, on the edge of Chinatown.

Over trhe past year a person was seen walking past our building openly crrying a gun.

A few months ago a delery crew brining in washing machines were robbed in pain sight by someone brandishing a gun.

few dys simeone went into a restaurant 3 blocks away and grabbed a laptop. He went into another rtestaurant randomly shooting. He was caught across the street form us by police.

Shootings are now a regular occurrence. Last Novembers right in downtown Seattle two men stared shooting at each other with automatic we pans killing bystanders.

Last year there was a drive by at our front door. Someone in a car tried to kill someone walking by. Our building was hit and a resident narrowly missed being hit.

In the so called CHOP zone some fool drove his car in with young passengers and it was riddled with bullets killing occupants.

I could go on but you get the point. People killing each other with guns is now routine in the region.

Unless you draw your gun in anticipation carrying a gun is pointless. On top of that when the adrenalin starts flowing it becomes difficult to get off an accurate shot unless you have training.


There is also the hesitation most of us have in pulling the trigger. Soldiers overcome it by repetition.

Go to an indoor range. In low light draw a concealed gun and shoot as a silhouette comes towards you and see how you do. It is a lot harder than you may think especially considering people in the background.

Police really have a tough job.

 

[steve_bank]

In the 90s I had a carry permit. I ended up letting it expire. I realized that whithout continual practice I'd likely never get a gun out and on target in a close encounter. Add to that the possibility of hitting an innocent person.

The old Mythbusters show did a segment on drawing a gun. Wearing a holster exposed a man runs at you with a knife. How close can he get with you getting off a shot. It tuned out not very close. Someone 10 to 15 feet away draws a knife and runs at you, odd's are he will get you before you shoot.

Tasers are legal. There are small hand held models you press against someone. There are also bright flashing lights.

For the average person in a city a carry gun is useless.

When I lived in North Idaho in the early 90s I always carried a gun hiking or taking my Jeep in the back country. Two legged critters were a real threat.

Today depending on where I am going I carry pepper spray. I can't drive anymore and I walk or take public transit. We are near a large homeless camp and residents have been assaulted. I also practice with my cane, breaking a knee. I took some training in dealing with a knife.

In the past year I have had three encounters that diffused.

In your home the best weapon is a simple shotgun. Effective, easy to aim, minimal threat to neighbors, and is intimidating. Everyone knows the sound of a shotgun action.

I know someone who carries a collapsible whip. Like a radio antenna. Another resident carries a gun on his ankle, but he would never get it out in time.

There are sticky nets launched from a tube that police can use. I think there are also sticky mats.

I think the blade limit in Seattle is 3.5 inches.

The best defense is awareness of your surroundings. Avoidance.

I have significant related professional experience, and this entire post is accurate and how I would respond... with one minor disagreement...

Everyone knows the sound of a shotgun action.

Bad idea. First of all, keep the shotgun racked, as long as it is very secure (a shotgun that is ready to fire can go off if dropped - unlike most handguns these days which have "drop-proof" actions). You want to be ready ro fire your defense weapon... not ready to get ready to get ready to fire.
Second of all, the sound of a shotgun racking sounds like this, "Hey everybody, I am armed with exactly 2 shells, so come on in ready to spray all of your bullets all over the place."

It should instead sound more like
"what was that!?!?!?"
"That was you getting your guts shot out... you might die, dude. prolly want to get on the floor and let the police maybe save you.

Back in the 80s I was living near downtown Nashua NH, I rented the first floor of a house. It ws night, I had my windows open, and I was sitting in the dark. I heard peole murmuring outside a window hidden from the street.

Next to the window I put and empty clip into a gund as loudly as I could and cycled tha ction. I heard feet running away.

Someone who had been a reserve LA sheriff said the most terrifying thing is the sound of a shotgun being cycled in the dark.

Here in Seattle amidst rising violence our progressive's city council is cutting the legs off the police. 911 critical responses times are going up, now at over 7 minutes. If you live in unincorporated areas with no local police and rely on county sheriffs response times can be over 30 minutes. For a lot of people in Washington it is getting like the wild west. Home invasions.

A shotgun with some practice and training is the best home weapon.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Actually the situation in Seattle counters your assertion on gubs abd criminals.

I live a short walk to downtown on a main street, on the edge of Chinatown.

Over trhe past year a person was seen walking past our building openly crrying a gun.

A few months ago a delery crew brining in washing machines were robbed in pain sight by someone brandishing a gun.

few dys simeone went into a restaurant 3 blocks away and grabbed a laptop. He went into another rtestaurant randomly shooting. He was caught across the street form us by police.

Shootings are now a regular occurrence. Last Novembers right in downtown Seattle two men stared shooting at each other with automatic we pans killing bystanders.

Last year there was a drive by at our front door. Someone in a car tried to kill someone walking by. Our building was hit and a resident narrowly missed being hit.

In the so called CHOP zone some fool drove his car in with young passengers and it was riddled with bullets killing occupants.

I could go on but you get the point. People killing each other with guns is now routine in the region.

Unless you draw your gun in anticipation carrying a gun is pointless. On top of that when the adrenalin starts flowing it becomes difficult to get off an accurate shot unless you have training.


There is also the hesitation most of us have in pulling the trigger. Soldiers overcome it by repetition.

The shootings you talk about are mostly criminal vs criminal.

Go to an indoor range. In low light draw a concealed gun and shoot as a silhouette comes towards you and see how you do. It is a lot harder than you may think especially considering people in the background.

Police really have a tough job.

As I said, if they're gunning for you you're right, you're not going to be able to defend yourself. What I'm saying is that if you're not a criminal they're probably not gunning for you, they have other objectives which might end up with your death but are unlikely to start with your death.

 

[steve_bank]

Actually the situation in Seattle counters your assertion on gubs abd criminals.

I live a short walk to downtown on a main street, on the edge of Chinatown.

Over trhe past year a person was seen walking past our building openly crrying a gun.

A few months ago a delery crew brining in washing machines were robbed in pain sight by someone brandishing a gun.

few dys simeone went into a restaurant 3 blocks away and grabbed a laptop. He went into another rtestaurant randomly shooting. He was caught across the street form us by police.

Shootings are now a regular occurrence. Last Novembers right in downtown Seattle two men stared shooting at each other with automatic we pans killing bystanders.

Last year there was a drive by at our front door. Someone in a car tried to kill someone walking by. Our building was hit and a resident narrowly missed being hit.

In the so called CHOP zone some fool drove his car in with young passengers and it was riddled with bullets killing occupants.

I could go on but you get the point. People killing each other with guns is now routine in the region.

Unless you draw your gun in anticipation carrying a gun is pointless. On top of that when the adrenalin starts flowing it becomes difficult to get off an accurate shot unless you have training.


There is also the hesitation most of us have in pulling the trigger. Soldiers overcome it by repetition.

The shootings you talk about are mostly criminal vs criminal.

Go to an indoor range. In low light draw a concealed gun and shoot as a silhouette comes towards you and see how you do. It is a lot harder than you may think especially considering people in the background.

Police really have a tough job.

As I said, if they're gunning for you you're right, you're not going to be able to defend yourself. What I'm saying is that if you're not a criminal they're probably not gunning for you, they have other objectives which might end up with your death but are unlikely to start with your death.

Not really. People get shot in convivence store robberies. There was a shooting last year on a bus.

Don't know how you are forming your views. Around here there is a growing number of young hardened people across all demographics.

Around here it is being fueled by decriminalizing every thing, or nearly so. Consequences go down and criminals are emboldened. Police report that criminals are migrating here.

You seem to be taking a head in the sand it is not really a problem position.

Guns are entangled in our culture ad there is no way to reverse it, at least without a change to COTUS which will never happen.

As I said I carry pepper spray not a gun. I know people who do carry guns. For the average person it is the best solution. Easy to get ut and use and non lethal.

Legally it gets more complicated. If you draw a gun you face the same scrutiny police do. Was it warranted? If you draw or show you have a gun you can be arrested for brandishing a weapon. If you use it you have to show there was no other choice. The threat has to be imminent.

 

[jab]

The intent of this topic is to discuss NON-firearm weapons.
This will necessarily include some comparisons to firearms and firearms laws, but if you want to talk about firearms to advocate for or against, that's a huge topic and starting new threads is free. This thread is to talk about non-firearms weapons.


This thread is spawned from this reader comment on the blog electoral-vote.com

And speaking of confiscating weapons, I have taught people to use hand weapons for a number of years. Many such weapons in a number of states are illegal to carry; nunchaku, sais, shurikens, and swords are some examples. Some states prohibit knife blades longer than six inches. Any of these weapons require some expertise and training to use, but I submit no more so than a firearm (the dexterity required for many of these is rather exaggerated). The biggest difference I can see is that it's much harder to accidentally injure another person or oneself fatally—a really bad mistake using nunchaku might result in a broken bone or concussion, but it's rather unlikely to kill you, or anyone else. An error using a sai might "put an eye out" if one is particularly clumsy. Firearms, on the other hand, accidentally kill thousands of people every year, and sometimes from some distance away. The logic of this differential treatment escapes me, but perhaps someone can explain it.

So let's talk about this. Why aren't there big organizations protesting the limits on owning these weapons?

My first pre-discussion theories are two:

1. There is not a huge profit margin, and so there is not mega backing from manufacturers seeking to make money off of the increased sales that controversy brings
2. They require skill, so any old yahoo who thinks he's tough cannot pick one up and be any more dangerous than he was before he owned one.

Should these weapons be allowed? Is it a good idea for citizens to be versed in their use? Do they have inherent drawbacks or dangers or limitations?
Lets talk about weapons and the law (but not guns).

America is deeply hypocritical and mildly deranged about the application of the second amendment.

 

[Gospel]

The intent of this topic is to discuss NON-firearm weapons.
This will necessarily include some comparisons to firearms and firearms laws, but if you want to talk about firearms to advocate for or against, that's a huge topic and starting new threads is free. This thread is to talk about non-firearms weapons.


This thread is spawned from this reader comment on the blog electoral-vote.com

And speaking of confiscating weapons, I have taught people to use hand weapons for a number of years. Many such weapons in a number of states are illegal to carry; nunchaku, sais, shurikens, and swords are some examples. Some states prohibit knife blades longer than six inches. Any of these weapons require some expertise and training to use, but I submit no more so than a firearm (the dexterity required for many of these is rather exaggerated). The biggest difference I can see is that it's much harder to accidentally injure another person or oneself fatally—a really bad mistake using nunchaku might result in a broken bone or concussion, but it's rather unlikely to kill you, or anyone else. An error using a sai might "put an eye out" if one is particularly clumsy. Firearms, on the other hand, accidentally kill thousands of people every year, and sometimes from some distance away. The logic of this differential treatment escapes me, but perhaps someone can explain it.

So let's talk about this. Why aren't there big organizations protesting the limits on owning these weapons?

My first pre-discussion theories are two:

1. There is not a huge profit margin, and so there is not mega backing from manufacturers seeking to make money off of the increased sales that controversy brings
2. They require skill, so any old yahoo who thinks he's tough cannot pick one up and be any more dangerous than he was before he owned one.

Should these weapons be allowed? Is it a good idea for citizens to be versed in their use? Do they have inherent drawbacks or dangers or limitations?
Lets talk about weapons and the law (but not guns).

America is deeply hypocritical and mildly deranged about the application of the second amendment.

That's no surprise being that the original purpose of law enforcement was to control people who are not like us. However if the laws were enforced correctly across the board you're statement wouldn't have truth to it.

 

[Worldtraveller]

I've been pointing out the stupidity of how the 2nd amendment is interpreted for years.

I have in my collection: a Viking Hewing spear, several swords (some 'stage swords' for dueling, some quite sharp), a couple of axes, bow/arrows, daggers, and a blowgun. I haven't looked up the specific laws since I move to UT, but all of my bladed weapons are illegal in AZ, where you can open carry a loaded firearm with out so much as anyone blinking.

 

[Gospel]

Wow, your place sounds like an awesome spot to down a bottle of whiskey to the face. I'd feel like the laws of the Danes hold sway there, and death is just a road to Valhalla.

 

[Elixir]

I've been pointing out the stupidity of how the 2nd amendment is interpreted for years.

I have in my collection: a Viking Hewing spear, several swords (some 'stage swords' for dueling, some quite sharp), a couple of axes, bow/arrows, daggers, and a blowgun. I haven't looked up the specific laws since I move to UT, but all of my bladed weapons are illegal in AZ, where you can open carry a loaded firearm with out so much as anyone blinking.

I'd really like to try out some of the new semi-automatic crossbows that are on the market. I understand that they freak out the gun people almost as much as the gun people freak out the rest of us.

 

[jonatha]

I've been pointing out the stupidity of how the 2nd amendment is interpreted for years.

I have in my collection: a Viking Hewing spear, several swords (some 'stage swords' for dueling, some quite sharp), a couple of axes, bow/arrows, daggers, and a blowgun. I haven't looked up the specific laws since I move to UT, but all of my bladed weapons are illegal in AZ, where you can open carry a loaded firearm with out so much as anyone blinking.

I imagine those laws could be successfully challenged as unconstitutional.

Indeed, I wonder why Scalia didn't allow personal antitank weapons, inasmuch as I'm sure there must have been some founding father who had a personal cannon...

 

[steve_bank]

Everyone interprets COTUS to maximize their view and needs.

In the day I doubt the founders meant carrying a cannon around with you and the govt would have stepped in if somebody stared accumulating weapons' and ammunition.

They had lived under British military's rule and the monarchy. It was about a hedge against the organized US military against the people. COTUS funds a standing Navy, it was needed to protect the coast. The Army I believe has to be reconstituted every 3 years. They did not intend to have a standing army, they wanted to limit potential for abuse and military's adventurism the kind of which we are entangled in today.

People hve an inherent right to protect life and property. Organized police does not abrogate that right.