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The Science and Mechanics of Free Will

If so then we are aware of the model in some way. There is the model and there is being aware of the model.

You can't eliminate the split.

We are the model. We know we exist because we exist; it is self-evident. Why do we need to overcomplicate things with awareness.

I look down at my keyboard. I am aware of it.

How am I being affected by it?

Photons on your visual system and electromagnetic forces on your fingers

It is a conclusion that science is narrowing in on.

No it is not.

Science is not near explaining what a mind is. It doesn't even know which way to go.

Again, is a mind an electrical pattern? A magnetic pattern? Some electrical effect? A magnetic effect? Some kind of quantum effect? Some kind of combination of these effects?

Science is not narrowing in on answering these questions. It is completely baffled and unable to proceed.

Science has found the relationship that the mind, if there is a mind, has with the brain. I will feel pain if I touch a stove. They generally know how matter and the mind work together.
 
Is it the mind that is aware, or "the possessor" of the mind?

The mind is aware. So the possessor is aware. The possessor is aware because they have a mind that is aware.

If I can be aware of my mind then what function does the mind provide? I don't necessarily reject the idea but I need to ask. Am I what I do or am I what I have (e.g.; mind)?

You are aware with your mind.

You are aware in a certain way and of certain things.
 
We are the model. We know we exist because we exist; it is self-evident. Why do we need to overcomplicate things with awareness.

We are discreet animals that have to be aware to survive.

We cannot dispense with the crucial element of our survival. Our being made aware of things.

How am I being affected by it?

Photons on your visual system and electromagnetic forces on your fingers

The retina is affected by photons, not the mind. The mind does not experience photons. It experiences what the brain makes of photons.

And you have not proven experiencing the keyboard with the mind is also having the mind affected in some way. The mind can be aware and not be changed at all.

Again, is a mind an electrical pattern? A magnetic pattern? Some electrical effect? A magnetic effect? Some kind of quantum effect? Some kind of combination of these effects?

Science has found the relationship that the mind, if there is a mind, has with the brain. I will feel pain if I touch a stove. They generally know how matter and the mind work together.

Your dogged refusal to consider the implications of this question is really the only issue here.
 
We are the model. We know we exist because we exist; it is self-evident. Why do we need to overcomplicate things with awareness.
We are discreet animals that have to be aware to survive.

We cannot dispense with the crucial element of our survival. Our being made aware of things.

If we are the model, then we naturally understand the model. That's why they haven't found the ghost in the machine or the little person controlling the brain; because the little person is the brain.

Photons on your visual system and electromagnetic forces on your fingers

The retina is affected by photons, not the mind. The mind does not experience photons. It experiences what the brain makes of photons.

I agree.

And you have not proven experiencing the keyboard with the mind is also having the mind affected in some way. The mind can be aware and not be changed at all.

The keyboard's photons are the inputs into your system that ultimately leads to your awareness of it - in a chain reaction. Like you said, we don't experience the photons, or the keyboard or any other intermediate processes. We become the final effect; whatever exact part of the brain that is.

Again, is a mind an electrical pattern? A magnetic pattern? Some electrical effect? A magnetic effect? Some kind of quantum effect? Some kind of combination of these effects?

Science has found the relationship that the mind, if there is a mind, has with the brain. I will feel pain if I touch a stove. They generally know how matter and the mind work together.

Your dogged refusal to consider the implications of this question is really the only issue here.

I really don't understand your issue. We have psychiatric drugs, for example, that act in neural pathways to help people overcome depression. Similarly, pain medication stops the perception of pain. Or what about the Libet experiments that had a profound effect on the way we understand the mind's relationship with the body. How can you say that science is not narrowing in on the mind?

What else can they do besides finding an outline of the mind molecule for molecule?
 
We are discreet animals that have to be aware to survive.

We cannot dispense with the crucial element of our survival. Our being made aware of things.

If we are the model, then we naturally understand the model. That's why they haven't found the ghost in the machine or the little person controlling the brain; because the little person is the brain.

I don't know what model you are talking about. We are not a model we are an actual thing. Models are what humans make. They are approximations. We are not an approximation.

And there is no little man.

There is a mind. And it is not shaped like a man.

Or a brain.

Again, is a mind an electrical pattern? A magnetic pattern? Some electrical effect? A magnetic effect? Some kind of quantum effect? Some kind of combination of these effects?

I really don't understand your issue.

My issue is you won't give me an answer to this question. But if you try you might begin to see what I am getting at.

We have psychiatric drugs, for example, that act in neural pathways to help people overcome depression.

The mind is what experiences the emotions.

It is not the emotions.

What else can they do besides finding an outline of the mind molecule for molecule?

If it is an activity of a brain then the specific activity and how that activity gives rise to a conscious mind can be known.

But right now we can't even say what activity of the brain it is.

Which is why I keep asking that question you keep ignoring.
 
If it is an activity of a brain then the specific activity and how that activity gives rise to a conscious mind can be known.

Why does it have to give rise to anything? We can only indirectly observe a different brain from its radiation, and we already know firsthand what the brain is and its true identity. Why do we need more assumptions?

But right now we can't even say what activity of the brain it is.

Which is why I keep asking that question you keep ignoring.

What question do you keep asking?

And what would it matter if we pinpointed the exact process; we won't see anything like a mind emerging from it anyway. We will just see tissues of cells of molecules of elementary particles, more of the same except in a different arrangement.
 
If it is an activity of a brain then the specific activity and how that activity gives rise to a conscious mind can be known.

Why does it have to give rise to anything?

Because to experience things with a mind is a real phenomena. It exists.

It has to be given rise to in some way.

Real phenomena cannot give rise to itself. So if the mind is a product of the brain the brain has to create it in some way.

What question do you keep asking?

Is a mind an electrical pattern? A magnetic pattern? Some electrical effect? A magnetic effect? Some kind of quantum effect? Some kind of combination of these effects?

If you can't answer this specifically you don't know what a mind is.
 
Why does it have to give rise to anything?

Because to experience things with a mind is a real phenomena. It exists.

It has to be given rise to in some way.

Real phenomena cannot give rise to itself.

Why not? Itself is what has arisen in existence.

So if the mind is a product of the brain the brain has to create it in some way.

That's assuming that the mind is a product of the brain. I would say that's needless complexity.

Is a mind an electrical pattern? A magnetic pattern? Some electrical effect? A magnetic effect? Some kind of quantum effect? Some kind of combination of these effects?

If you can't answer this specifically you don't know what a mind is.

So then let's say it's a magnetic pattern. What difference does that make for the purposes of our argument?
 
Because to experience things with a mind is a real phenomena. It exists.

It has to be given rise to in some way.

Real phenomena cannot give rise to itself.

Why not?

Self genesis? Not a theory that holds water in anything. Even Krauss's universe from nothing requires the "laws" of QM to arise. One cannot just arise.

So then let's say it's a magnetic pattern. What difference does that make for the purposes of our argument?

The purpose is we don't have the slightest idea what a mind is.

We make decisions with our minds.

To know if they are "free" or "forced" first requires understanding the mechanism decisions are made with.

Is the mind free or forced? That can't be answered without knowing what it is.
 

Self genesis? Not a theory that holds water in anything. Even Krauss's universe from nothing requires the "laws" of QM to arise. One cannot just arise.
The unity of self arose; my mind arose.

So then let's say it's a magnetic pattern. What difference does that make for the purposes of our argument?

The purpose is we don't have the slightest idea what a mind is.

We make decisions with our minds.

To know if they are "free" or "forced" first requires understanding the mechanism decisions are made with.

But they have some pretty good models of the decision-making process already. See, http://www.pnas.org/content/112/34/10645 . This research explains how works as a "quantum dynamic system".

Is the mind free or forced? That can't be answered without knowing what it is.

If we can either assume that the decision-making process is a part of the mind or that it runs parallel with the mind (again unnecessary complexity), then our decisions are as free as the possibilities of QM. Now I am not saying that the freedom of QM is actually free. It may be determinable using other dimensions, etc. But for now, we might have scientific free will.
 
We don't have to know everything about how an internal combustion engine works in order to know that the engine itself that is producing energy, and not that it is a receiver for universal energy being 'received' by the engine

Humans designed and built the entire thing. They know exactly what it is.

Which misses the point, nobody knows everything about what it is down to the atomic level. Some know very little about computers, but that does not mean they know nothing, or that they cannot use a computer as well as someone who does.



No we don't.

We know about cells and electrical activity and blood and neurotransmitters and receptors that initiate or decrease things in the cells.

But we don't have a clue what a mind is.

If we did you could tell me.

You are still missing the point. We know enough to understand that various chemical alter mind and that each chemical alters mind in specific ways. We know what effects surgery has on cognitive function, damage to the hypothalamus, which regulates such things as temperature regulation, thirst, hunger, sleep, mood, sex drive, etc, any or all of these functions being effected by damage to the structure

Is it an electrical pattern? A magnetic pattern? Some electrical effect? A magnetic effect? Some kind of quantum effect? Is the movement of the blood involved? Some kind of reception? Some combination of these things?

That's not relevant to what I'm saying. I've repeatedly said that the how of consciousness is not understood, but that it is clear that the brain is the agency responsible for mind formation.

Show me this study where researchers predict decisions.

There have been many experiments, I've already mentioned several earlier in this thread.

One example:
When it comes to making decisions, it seems that the conscious mind is the last to know.

''We already had evidence that it is possible to detect brain activity associated with movement before someone is aware of making a decision to move. Work presented this week at the British Neuroscience Association (BNA) conference in London not only extends it to abstract decisions, but suggests that it might even be possible to pre-emptively reverse a decision before a person realises they’ve made it.

In 2011, Gabriel Kreiman of Harvard University measured the activity of individual neurons in 12 people with epilepsy, using electrodes already implanted into their brain to help identify the source of their seizures. The volunteers took part in the “Libet” experiment, in which they press a button whenever they like and remember the position of a second hand on a clock at the moment of decision.

Kreiman discovered that electrical activity in the supplementary motor area, involved in initiating movement, and in the anterior cingulate cortex, which controls attention and motivation, appeared up to 5 seconds before a volunteer was aware of deciding to press the button (Neuron, doi.org/btkcpz). This backed up earlier fMRI studies by John-Dylan Haynes of the Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience in Berlin, Germany, that had traced the origins of decisions to the prefrontal cortex a whopping 10 seconds before awareness'


''If this kind of “mind-reading” is possible, a new study by Haynes, published this week and also presented at the meeting, suggests that it may not be restricted to decisions about moving a finger. Using fMRI, Haynes has found that the very brain areas involved in deciding to move are also active several seconds before a more abstract decision, like whether to add or subtract a series of numbers.''
 
This makes no sense. Self awareness is to be aware of something. To be aware of awareness also entails context, and does not occur in a mental vacuum.

You cannot separate awareness from an object of awareness. Try it if you like, give one clear and concise example.

Awareness always involves that which is aware and the things it is aware of.

There must be a separation of this kind for there to be awareness.

I am aware of the ball therefore the ball and that which is aware of the ball (my mind) are not the same thing.

I am aware of my anger therefore the feelings of anger and that which is aware of the anger (my mind) are not the same thing.

You are just repeating assertions based on surface appearance with no regard to evidence based on research.

Your argument fails right at the start. Why you ask?

Even if it is granted that the brain is a receiver of non definable 'mind' - something that can never be understood through physical means - the fact still remains that it is the condition of the receiver, the brain, that determines behavioural output.

Regardless of being a receiver, when connections fail, memory is disabled, the subject cannot recognize common objects or their relationships. So its the same either way, be the brain the generator or a receiver of mind, it still remains that it is the state of the brain and the brain alone that determines how mind is experienced (as a receiver) or how mind is formed (as a generator).

There is no way around this barrier for your argument.
 
I experience red.

I am not red. I am that which can experience things like red.

But what is then expriencing the experience of red?

Nothing. It ends at my mind experiencing it.

Nothing experiences me experiencing. The brain might be affected by it but it is not "experiencing it" as if it has a second mind.

Cut out that unnecessary step: the experience of red is a part of you.

There is no unnecessary step. It is a logical truism that cannot be escaped.

For there to be experience there must be that which experiences and that which it experiences.

And the way a mind experiences it is not by simply being affected. A mind utilizes experience and can refuse to respond to some stimulations and has suppositions about what actions will produce.
 
One example:
When it comes to making decisions, it seems that the conscious mind is the last to know.

''We already had evidence that it is possible to detect brain activity associated with movement before someone is aware of making a decision to move. Work presented this week at the British Neuroscience Association (BNA) conference in London not only extends it to abstract decisions, but suggests that it might even be possible to pre-emptively reverse a decision before a person realises they’ve made it.

In 2011, Gabriel Kreiman of Harvard University measured the activity of individual neurons in 12 people with epilepsy, using electrodes already implanted into their brain to help identify the source of their seizures. The volunteers took part in the “Libet” experiment, in which they press a button whenever they like and remember the position of a second hand on a clock at the moment of decision.

Kreiman discovered that electrical activity in the supplementary motor area, involved in initiating movement, and in the anterior cingulate cortex, which controls attention and motivation, appeared up to 5 seconds before a volunteer was aware of deciding to press the button (Neuron, doi.org/btkcpz). This backed up earlier fMRI studies by John-Dylan Haynes of the Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience in Berlin, Germany, that had traced the origins of decisions to the prefrontal cortex a whopping 10 seconds before awareness'


''If this kind of “mind-reading” is possible, a new study by Haynes, published this week and also presented at the meeting, suggests that it may not be restricted to decisions about moving a finger. Using fMRI, Haynes has found that the very brain areas involved in deciding to move are also active several seconds before a more abstract decision, like whether to add or subtract a series of numbers.''

The volunteers took part in the “Libet” experiment, in which they press a button whenever they like and remember the position of a second hand on a clock at the moment of decision.

So you have humans with epilepsy pushing a button when they like and remember something.

Kreiman discovered that electrical activity in the supplementary motor area, involved in initiating movement, and in the anterior cingulate cortex, which controls attention and motivation, appeared up to 5 seconds before a volunteer was aware of deciding to press the button

Yes some area of the brain was active when a person was anticipating making a decision very soon.

It does not show the brain making a decision.

That is just an interpretation that is highly doubtful.

For movement there is not just movement. There is anticipation of movement and general planning prior to movement.
 
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