The Science and Mechanics of Free Will

[none]

The bee, smarter than the dog, or the infant, knows there is a permanent "world" beyond it's immediate perceptions.

We don't need to assume that they do.

It's good enough that they should have, as we would expect, some basic behavioural mechanisms that provide a working substitute to actual knowledge.
EB

You can't find pollen with substitutes. You need real information about the external world.

I'm sure you need information. My point was that this doesn't imply the organism involved knows there is a world out there.
EB

It is miles away from any understanding.

But we can speculate.

How does one bee tell another bee where to go without knowing about the external world?

What extensor world?

 

[untermensche]

It is miles away from any understanding.

But we can speculate.

How does one bee tell another bee where to go without knowing about the external world?

What extensor world?

The world external to the hive that has the pollen.

How does one bee tell another where to go in that world if it doesn't know about it?

 

[none]

What extensor world?

The world external to the hive that has the pollen.

How does one bee tell another where to go in that world if it doesn't know about it?

Thank you for understanding that I meant EXTERNAL, autocorrect error
What makes the area outside the hive a different world?

 

[fromderinside]

When you move to social interaction you really move away from what is understood.

We don't understand how the mind moves the arm.

Forget about a physiological explanation of complex social behavior.

For that stories and faith are all we have.

When a scientist moves from neuroscience and genetics to social interaction one does so based on the neuroscience, genetics and other science underlying social interaction. If one doesn't then, of course, all one has is religion and faith and old wives tales underlying their proclamations.

For instance it isn't the mind, that unknowable thing invented to make conversation with slaves meaningful, rather it is the nervous system with its capacities to process, integrate and direct activity of muscle and bone to conditions where that muscle and bone remains functioning. So scientists really do understand how the nervous system moves the arm, legs, body, the language system, articulating mechanisms and hands to keep the human alive.

Naturally scientists interest turn to social behavior, interactions among nervous system directed beings of a common species called man.

Much more productive than chasing something called mind, a construct invented to give importance beyond being a machine to a talking animal. Unless reduced to what is scientifically understood mind only supports philosophical dualism.

Yes, all you have are faith and stories.

 

[untermensche]

The world external to the hive that has the pollen.

How does one bee tell another where to go in that world if it doesn't know about it?

Thank you for understanding that I meant EXTERNAL, autocorrect error
What makes the area outside the hive a different world?

It's not a different world.

But it is not the apparent world, when the bee is in the hive.

So the bee is using some conception of the external world that exists in it's "bee mind" to tell the other bee's where to go, with a dance.

It is incredibly complicated and we don't have any idea how the bee does it.

If we don't know how a little insect with a tiny brain is doing things we certainly don't have a clue how humans do things with their much larger and more complicated brains.

 

[none]

You are hilarious, "the bee whisperer" noted

 

[untermensche]

You are hilarious, "the bee whisperer" noted

You find bees communicating with a dance hilarious?

I find it fascinating.

 

[none]

You are hilarious, "the bee whisperer" noted

You find bees communicating with a dance hilarious?

I find it fascinating.

No, I'm not going to chase you down another rabbit hole of bee behavior
I was simply inquiring the difference between the hive and external "world"
And I know you love that kind of shit so just try to make sense and keep it brief, if you can

 

[untermensche]

You find bees communicating with a dance hilarious?

I find it fascinating.

No, I'm not going to chase you down another rabbit hole of bee behavior
I was simply inquiring the difference between the hive and external "world"
And I know you love that kind of shit so just try to make sense and keep it brief, if you can

Hard to make less sense than this.

 

[untermensche]

When you move to social interaction you really move away from what is understood.

We don't understand how the mind moves the arm.

Forget about a physiological explanation of complex social behavior.

For that stories and faith are all we have.

When a scientist moves from neuroscience and genetics to social interaction one does so based on the neuroscience, genetics and other science underlying social interaction. If one doesn't then, of course, all one has is religion and faith and old wives tales underlying their proclamations.

For instance it isn't the mind, that unknowable thing invented to make conversation with slaves meaningful, rather it is the nervous system with its capacities to process, integrate and direct activity of muscle and bone to conditions where that muscle and bone remains functioning. So scientists really do understand how the nervous system moves the arm, legs, body, the language system, articulating mechanisms and hands to keep the human alive.

Naturally scientists interest turn to social behavior, interactions among nervous system directed beings of a common species called man.

Much more productive than chasing something called mind, a construct invented to give importance beyond being a machine to a talking animal. Unless reduced to what is scientifically understood mind only supports philosophical dualism.

Yes, all you have are faith and stories.

It is the mind doing things. Because our actions are based on ever changing conceptions of the world, not chemical impulses.

And the mind is a product of the nervous system, like bile is a product of the liver.

Bile is not the liver and the mind is not the nervous system.

This simple distinction seems beyond you.

 

[Malintent]

You find bees communicating with a dance hilarious?

I find it fascinating.

No, I'm not going to chase you down another rabbit hole of bee behavior
I was simply inquiring the difference between the hive and external "world"
And I know you love that kind of shit so just try to make sense and keep it brief, if you can

The (obvious to me) point is that the bees are able to communicate directions to a place that the bees they are communicating with have never seen or been to. The "eternal world" is the world outside of their hive that many of the population has simply not yet had a chance to go... that is the point of having scouts... they report back information about where they have found something of interest. Think of the "external world" as "the as of yet unexplored by all but one bee" world.
In human culture, we bust out a map that was drawn by an aerial (or satellite) image, apply a coordinate system to it, and communicate information about visited coordinates to other people, without having to take those people to that location and grunt at them while pointing.
Bees have found a way to do very similar things, but without maps, or written language.... they 'perform' the information.