The Science and Mechanics of Free Will

[untermensche]

What you call "inner theater" is experience. A huge subject. And it encompasses everything from the visual experience to the experience of sadness. It is the crucial part of having a human mind.

Yes, and all that are orchestrated by the brain: the sounds, the images, the thoughts, the feelings, the only thing we dont account for yet is the canvas itself.

No.

Your mind controls your brain.

You tell your arm to raise and it does.

Try it.

 

[untermensche]

The mind is not a reflex.

It is the opposite of reflex.

It ponders. It contemplates. It delays. It makes a decision and then moves.

This is not reflex. It is to have control.

 

[Juma]

The mind is not a reflex.

It is the opposite of reflex.

It ponders. It contemplates. It delays. It makes a decision and then moves.

This is not reflex. It is to have control.

Dream on.

 

[untermensche]

The mind is not a reflex.

It is the opposite of reflex.

It ponders. It contemplates. It delays. It makes a decision and then moves.

This is not reflex. It is to have control.

Dream on.

It takes a mind to do so.

 

[Juma]

Dream on.

It takes a mind to do so.

How do you know?

 

[untermensche]

It takes a mind to do so.

How do you know?

All we know we know with our minds.

Not our brains.

We are that which knows with a mind.

And directs our actions with one.

 

[Juma]

How do you know?

All we know we know with our minds.

Not our brains.

Bye troll,

 

[untermensche]

All we know we know with our minds.

Not our brains.

Bye troll,

So you are reduced to this.

Not surprising.

But you used what mind you have to decide to run.

Clearly evidence the mind leads and the brain follows.

 

[Malintent]

All we know we know with our minds.

Not our brains.

Bye troll,

uncalled for. The brain is just an organ. The mind is the construct an active brain produces... what is the problem with that response? Far from troll like... not that it SHOULD be against the rules to call someone a troll (but calling a person a "cunt" is not against the rules)... but, indeed it is. so don't.

 

[Juma]

Bye troll,

uncalled for. The brain is just an organ. The mind is the construct an active brain produces... what is the problem with that response? Far from troll like... not that it SHOULD be against the rules to call someone a troll (but calling a person a "cunt" is not against the rules)... but, indeed it is. so don't.

It is not uncalled for, untermensch does not agree with your description that the brain produces the mind. He is very far of in fantasyland...

 

[fromderinside]

Really? I suspect you use mind as an intervening, unmeasured, variable. In other words, you follow dualism, which as far as I can tell, has no experimental justification (my turf).

Now that mind is back in your court, what is mind?

What besides a mind "experiences" color?

Should be easy since it is your turf.

There is no mind so what can replace that?

Damned easy. Its a wonder you didn't post this.

One experiences color.

Think about it before you reply. Why one would say one? One says one because one can question one, manipulate one, do experiments with one.

 

[untermensche]

What besides a mind "experiences" color?

Should be easy since it is your turf.

There is no mind so what can replace that?

Damned easy. Its a wonder you didn't post this.

One experiences color.

Think about it before you reply. Why one would say one? One says one because one can question one, manipulate one, do experiments with one.

You are claiming you have no mind?

With what are you making the claim with?

A brain does not understand human concepts.

Only a human mind does.

 

[fromderinside]

You are claiming you have no mind?

With what are you making the claim with?

A brain does not understand human concepts.

Only a human mind does.

I replace mind with one which is something I can measure. If you show me how to measure mind i'll be glad to consider the evidence. Remember a lot of what we do is squirt and twitch determined not of whatever mind might be at all. Within one all is included and measurable.

Time to put your 3000 year old mind construct to bed permanently. At best you're putting an intervening variable,an immeasurable one at that, in place between data and object. Damn sloppy one two.

 

[untermensche]

You are claiming you have no mind?

With what are you making the claim with?

A brain does not understand human concepts.

Only a human mind does.

I replace mind with one which is something I can measure. If you show me how to measure mind i'll be glad to consider the evidence. Remember a lot of what we do is squirt and twitch determined not of whatever mind might be at all. Within one all is included and measurable.

Time to put your 3000 year old mind construct to bed permanently.

It is not a bad construct just because you don't have a clue how to figure it out.

And that is my point exactly.

We know the mind is there. That is a given. It is what we have to know and experience everything.

And if we knew how the brain was creating this mind we could measure it.

But pretending it doesn't exist is madness.

 

[fromderinside]

I replace mind with one which is something I can measure. If you show me how to measure mind i'll be glad to consider the evidence. Remember a lot of what we do is squirt and twitch determined not of whatever mind might be at all. Within one all is included and measurable.

Time to put your 3000 year old mind construct to bed permanently.

It is not a bad construct just because you don't have a clue how to figure it out.

And that is my point exactly.

We know the mind is there. That is a given. It is what we have to know and experience everything.

And if we knew how the brain was creating this mind we could measure it.

But pretending it doesn't exist is madness.

Very sloppy thinking. We also know the sun goes around the earth every day yet we've come to accept the science that it's the earth that goes around the sun every year as it revolves on its axis every twenty four hours. Only a dualist would continue to think an intervening variable, immeasurable, is something that is self evident.

 

[untermensche]

It is not a bad construct just because you don't have a clue how to figure it out.

And that is my point exactly.

We know the mind is there. That is a given. It is what we have to know and experience everything.

And if we knew how the brain was creating this mind we could measure it.

But pretending it doesn't exist is madness.

Very sloppy thinking. We also know the sun goes around the earth every day yet we've come to accept the science that it's the earth that goes around the sun every year as it revolves on its axis every twenty four hours. Only a dualist would continue to think an intervening variable, immeasurable, is something that is self evident.

Only a fool would use their mind to say they don't have one.

There is no way a brain can understand concepts that didn't exist when it first made it's evolutionary appearance.

It takes something apart from the brain to understand these concepts.

A mind.

And to say the brain gives rise to the mind is not dualism.

Anymore than saying the magnet giving rise to magnetism is dualism.

And there is no doubt the mind has an influence on the brain. On the whole body. The immune system.

 

[fromderinside]

Very sloppy thinking. We also know the sun goes around the earth every day yet we've come to accept the science that it's the earth that goes around the sun every year as it revolves on its axis every twenty four hours. Only a dualist would continue to think an intervening variable, immeasurable, is something that is self evident.

Only a fool would use their mind to say they don't have one.

There is no way a brain can understand concepts that didn't exist when it first made it's evolutionary appearance.

It takes something apart from the brain to understand these concepts.

A mind.

And to say the brain gives rise to the mind is not dualism.

Anymore than saying the magnet giving rise to magnetism is dualism.

And there is no doubt the mind has an influence on the brain. On the whole body. The immune system.

fortunately I have evidence and experiment on my side. Neurons give on the ability to discriminate objects from other objects and thing. Neurons change with input and react to input based on previous input providing the basis for memory. Association comes with neural convergence. Motive comes with development and use of such as adrenalin. All of this comes together with language developed from association and memory and discrimination. Surely one can us a shotcut and cll thins mind, but, one needn't nor, IMHO, should they since more can be gained by investigation how these more primitive antecedents work together in the brain and body of the individual which I will call one. Trying to develop a theory of mind from that which is just a conglomerate of evolved tendencies and capabilities working more or less together is fruitless. I

It is fruitless for the following reasons. Evolution doesn't develop with purpose nor foresight. So to develop a theory of mind which has a purpose from such a jumble of things that tend to work together that have been acquired and developed over millions of years more or less by chance is just kind of wasted effort.

A sensory or cognitive psychologist or physiologist should think like a classical physiologist who began by looking at sources and causes of actions starting with terminal neural effector neurons. That's the way I began. I began by looking at peripheral input neurons activity at the sensory transducer, then slowly began working my way up the evolved structure of the brain.

Those cognitive psychologists, I call them that because they are clearly not physiologists, who began by listening to microphones placed in the cortex often failed to understand what they were seeing because they didn't understand what had taken place before the information got up that far, 7 to 11 synapses from the photon or sound vibration. As physiology information improved, amazingly cognitive psychology improved since they now had better information with which to start their speculations. For the most part cognitive psychologists are still speculating since they really never confirm their theory with antecedent lower brain theory and data.

The point of all this is to illustrate both the nature of the brain, nervous system, and excretory system, and the futility of developing a purpose related theory from evolutioarily developed systems. There is no God at play here so forget the idea of a mind.

 

[untermensche]

Neurons give on the ability to discriminate objects from other objects and thing.

You can't just do away with the mind by talking about the activity of cells.

The mind is what knows Obama is the president of the US.

Not some cell or bunch of cells somewhere.

It is fruitless for the following reasons. Evolution doesn't develop with purpose nor foresight. So to develop a theory of mind which has a purpose from such a jumble of things that tend to work together that have been acquired and developed over millions of years more or less by chance is just kind of wasted effort.

Thus Gould's spandrels and contingencies.

Of course evolution did not create the ability of humans to learn mathematics. There is no evolutionary pressure to do so. They never used it for most of their history.

So having the mathematical ability which serves a purpose can arise merely by chance.

The same could be true of any aspect of the human mind.

 

[Treedbear]

You can't just do away with the mind by talking about the activity of cells.

The mind is what knows Obama is the president of the US.

Not some cell or bunch of cells somewhere.
...

I just asked my computer who is the president of the US and it said Barack Obama. Why can't several hundred million neurons give the same result?

 

[untermensche]

You can't just do away with the mind by talking about the activity of cells.

The mind is what knows Obama is the president of the US.

Not some cell or bunch of cells somewhere.
...

I just asked my computer who is the president of the US and it said Barack Obama. Why can't several hundred million neurons give the same result?

Your computer does not "know" who the president is.

It knows how to handle data in a very unbrainlike manner.